witesoxfan

I have read that Detroit does not believe they will have enough to spend to land Cespedes. I'd be perfectly content signing him within a reasonable area, but it would be a lot, lot, lot better to distribute that money throughout the minor league system and draft.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 07:07 PM) With how much certainty can you say we're not going to be competitive this year? Stranger things have happened, like 2000, 2005 and 2008. All of those seasons came out of low or lowered expectations. I'm not going to Vegas and betting on it happening, but you can never completely count the Sox out of the AL Central race any season either. But yeah, Viciedo has to play everyday, period. I did clarify that, and with good reason - 2000 and 2008 did come out of nowhere. Most people were expecting good things in 2005, they just couldn't have imagined it was going to be as good as it was. And, with as bad as the Central really is - Detroit's the only team I can even consider to be "good" at this juncture, and there are a few things that can still go wrong with that team too, including Cabrera and Verlander having "down" years (4-6 WAR instead of 6-8 WAR) and Peralta and Avila coming back more towards a 2-3 WAR (in Peralta's case, about a 1-2 WAR)- it is anybody's division. I would say that this division will easily be the most difficult to predict top to bottom. So sure, if Konerko continues to hit well, Dunn comes back to an .850-.900 OPS, Rios puts up a .750-.800 OPS, De Aza and Viciedo play well, Beckham and Morel put up 2 WARs, Humber pitches well again, Sale is strong out of the rotation, Peavy and Floyd pitch well, Reed pitches as advertised, Frasor is even semi-effective...sure, this team could win the division. I'm not going to count on it.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 04:05 PM) I have subscribed to this theory myself. In fact signing Quentin would be in the so called rebuilding concept IMO. Keep your good players while looking at some FA signings and potential minor league stars. That would be dumb. The White Sox are almost certainly not going to be competitive this year, Carlos Quentin has proven to be an inconsistent, injury prone power hitter who is a bad defensive player. He is not a building block and the White Sox, without another single move, will be able to field a competent outfield without him in it. The difference in value between Quentin and Danks is extreme. One is a run of the mill outfielder who will hit a few homers and not much more and the other is a bonafide #2 starting pitcher with the capabilities of being a #1. Beyond any of that, the White Sox have Viciedo waiting in the wings, so Quentin's presence is not a necessity.

I would love to see him go to Boston. His ERAs have been significantly lower than his FIPs the previous two seasons and, though he's been worth quite a bit due to the 200 innings in both seasons, I would love to see him in a monstrosity of a hitters park in a much more difficult division. I've always loved watching him pitch but have never been a big fan of him and I don't think there's any way he'd keep his ERA below 4 pitching for Boston. I think this would be a bad investment by Boston which is the biggest reason I want to see them make this move.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 02:03 PM) Oh god... Watch him pull some Cy-like starts against us. Poor man's version of Carl Pavano, which is saying all that really needs to be said.

People think of the word rebuilding as tearing the entire team apart and building through the minor league system. People think of retooling as tearing the entire team apart and building through the major league team. Most view the latter as inefficient. The problem with that scenario is that people assume that the two concepts are mutually exclusive. They are not. You can rebuild and retool at the same exact time. The White Sox did it in the 2007 season when they signed Pierzynski, Buehrle, and Dye to contract extensions. Those moves were much crazier than this move. I love this move. It's a very good value for a very solid pitcher who is just entering his prime. It's very likely that he will live up to the value of this contract. Beyond that, this move doesn't stop them from continuing a rebuild. As was mentioned elsewhere, it simply alludes to the idea that the Sox will trade other pieces as well and that Williams will not be in a hurry to do so. I have no problem with that either. It is frustrating as a fan because we have no idea what to expect at this point. Instead of being frustrated, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride at this point because I have no idea what the hell they are going to do.

Scott Boras. The Sox have worked with him a little more in the past 5 years, but they are not going to sign a reliever who is represented by Boras. They aren't going to pay that much money for a reliever.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Dec 16, 2011 -> 02:59 PM) Yes. My theory is that most are getting to the majors too quickly and either should have 1) developed more stamina and strength in the minors or 2) been injured in the minors and never made it to the majors. In the 50's, 60's and 70's there are always stories of guys who could throw in the upper 90's but never made it to the majors because they were injured in the minors. They didn't have the stamina to repeat their delivery for a season but would wash out. In today's game, these pitcher's are pushed ahead and break down in the majors when they shoudln't even has made it that far. We have this discussion among AT's all the time. Some say not enough throwing, some too much "pressure" throwing. There are many theories but one thing is for sure, today's pitcher's aren't as durable as they should be. Just to clarify, by "pressure" throwing, are you talking about high leverage situations? Like late in a game, up by 1, 2 runners on base? Or what exactly? I've heard that idea discussed before and have some understanding of what or why it would have an impact. Hawk and Blyleven (watch both quite a bit and respect both of their knowledge of the game) and neither one of them really like the pitch count. Instead, they prefer to look at the stress level at which the pitcher pitched. For starting pitchers, this makes sense. You can have 2 guys throw 110 pitches in 7 innings, but one could do it by throwing anywhere between 14-20 pitches per inning, and one could do it throwing fewer than 13 pitches in 6 innings and throwing 40 in one big inning. The sheer volume of pitches in that 1 inning is 300% greater than that of what he's done in any other inning, similar to a person who normally runs a 5K every day suddenly jumping to a 15K and then back to a 5K the next day. It's not going to be good for the body and there is an increased chance for injury. Am I barking up the right tree with that? If so, are you simply talking about the first situation I described or more similar to the second one, just as a reliever?

But Justin Upton plays RF.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 17, 2011 -> 09:05 PM) Kenny Williams has lost a hell of a lot of chips the last couple years, including to Torotno a few weeks ago. The latter is an opinion. If we're still making poker references, then I'm of the opinion that he merely folded and lost a small blind, but I think he actually took down a small pot. There are possibly some outliers with regards to his 2011 season in the minors, but it's very encouraging that he took the steps forward that he did in his first full year of starting. I think, best case scenario, you are looking at probably a 4-5 WAR pitcher and, worst case, a back of the rotation starter or middle reliever. That's part of the risk of rebuilding. Santos is an extremely talented reliever, but he seemed to have a bit of Brad Lidge to him as well - not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, I'm just saying it. Beyond any of that, the Sox aren't going to really compete this year (BUT PLAY THE GAMES FIRST) but it really has nothing to do with the Santos trade. The Rays turned over pretty much their entire bullpen last year and didn't get a damn thing for any of it and they were just fine. They have a better scouting department and almost certainly a better bullpen manager, but losing one reliever doesn't mean a hell of a lot in the long run, especially since that reliever is being replaced by one who can theoretically be just as good or better than him next year. The biggest piece of the bullpen that needs to be replaced is Sale, and that is going to be damn near impossible. As far as I'm concerned, Santos has already been replaced by Reed.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Dec 18, 2011 -> 02:27 PM) Will Danks be a Type A after this year? Does that even mTter with the new CBA? Just wondering if there's any incentive to hold him. Type B's have been eliminated and you get atleast 1 draft pick for a Type A free agent. It's still going to be much better to trade him.

There are a lot of risks involved with rebuilding. If players don't work out, then teams are going to be set back 12-18 months any way so Williams may as well take his shot at it because there's real attractive alternative. He was right in 2008, but hasn't really come close since. We'll see if he's right again.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Dec 16, 2011 -> 12:01 PM) How JR and KW look in the mirror with a minor league system like this is beyond me. Probably the way I do too - with their eyes.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 16, 2011 -> 10:57 AM) If Saladino is for real, and Escobar could be a stopgap, maybe we should be shopping Alexei. Good market for it this year; I bet the Giants would pay up. It actually is, and he's signed to a pretty friendly contract as well. If the Sox decide to go with a full blown rebuild, dealing him makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, it's dumb to trade a 4-5 WAR player for a guy who is more than a year away in the very best case scenario. If something like this were to happen, you'd see it midseason at the earliest and, more likely (which still isn't likely at all), next year. I just don't think that's a move you can make at this point in time.

Seemed to really like Saladino. I am OK with that.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 16, 2011 -> 09:20 AM) Why even start the baseball season? Let's go straight to October 2012 You're right, because it's totally irrelevant to project and have some sort of idea how good the team we are cheering for should be this year. Let's just go in blindfolded and assume we're going to win 100 games.

The only other lefty I've even seen mentioned in rumors, other than Gio and Danks, is Niese, and, even though he's young, he is simply a fallback option that some team would be dumb to overpay for at this point. If and when Gio goes, Danks should go shortly thereafter and due to a sudden lack of supply, could fetch a pretty good haul. It's very much a waiting game at this point.

I don't think losing 63 innings should signal a complete firesale. I still believe Williams has done a terrible job this offseason, but I'm sure he went into the Winter Meetings with intentions of trading a lot of pieces for younger pieces but needed the packages to back that up and wasn't receiving what he needed. I'm sure he also targeted players and that one of them was Molina. When he found out that he could acquire Molina by trading a reliever, whose max value to a team really is ~2 WAR, he pulled the trigger. I'm in agreement with the above poster(s) suggesting that they either blow it up completely or pretty much leave the rest in tact. The only guy who I feel is an absolute necessity to move right now is Quentin. I doubt you get any compensation for him as a free agent and he could net a quality prospect or two, plus the Sox can field a full and competent outfield without Quentin right now. You can then make a depth signing or two as well. If they do feel the need to trade Danks, then throughout the course of the season, several other pieces should be dealt as well.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 07:06 PM) As long as they don't end up with another AL Central team, I don't care what happens with Cuddyer and Kubel. It's when there is a direct exchange (Thome to Minnesota, or choosing Dunn versus Victor Martinez, Cabrera to DET because they had better prospects at the time) and we come out on the losing end that our team is most directly impacted. In a way, their losing Crain to us really did show up with the results last year...their bullpen was a total trainwreck. It's just that we couldn't leverage it because of our horrid offense. They were interested in Martinez, but never even made an offer. Detroit made their offer and he signed pretty much immediately. Williams and company pretty much said this right after he signed, almost verbatum.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:54 AM) He's 6'7 and he from DR, Who knows if he's actually 17 or not Those that have been incorrect recently have been by like a year. So if he's 18 instead of 17, I'm not going to cry a river. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:57 AM) http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/pro...y-johnson.shtml http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/pro...olan-ryan.shtml Quite sure he was joking.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 11:33 PM) You'll eat those words, Dick. Your track record for predicting major league success isn't exactly stellar either.

Jose Mijares seemed to be the most interesting one to me, especially if Thornton is eventually traded.

Reading that now, it is not quite as well written as I wanted. In fact, it looks like a drunken asshole wrote it. It doesn't change the general point(s) of the post. Both Williams and Buehrle are assholes. Fu** em both.

Having let it soak in, and having seen the photo, I do have a lot to say. Most of it is profanity laced, so I'll keep that 3/4 of it out, best as I can. These 3 posts generally sum up my reactions. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 06:19 PM) Buehrle just on CSN, called today a sad day. Said he never received an offer from the Sox, said when things were going to go down, went back to the Sox for some sort of offer, not neccessarily a match, and the Sox declined. So he confirmed the Sox never made him an offer. I think its pretty hard to call a guy a hypocrite when the team apparently didn't want him. QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 06:25 PM) Calling him a hypocrite has been and continues to be a disgrace. Two people CAN be hypocrites in the same exact situation, because there are multiple ways of interpreting the situation. The only thing we can do is base things off of context. Buehrle mentioned multiple times that he had intentions of retiring after this previous contract. I do not blame him for taking the $58 million from the Marlins and the 2 years he'll be stuck with that loudmouth Venezuelan of a manager. I do call him a hypocrite for taking it, considering it is probably the furthest away he could get away from the Midwest (which, as an assumption with some mediocre inferences within quotes along the way, is where he wanted to end his career). However, I do not call Kenny Williams a hypocrite. I do not recall him saying that resigning Buehrle was a priority, nor did he make it a priority. Instead, I would say Williams failed miserably at his job over these past 2 weeks. Resigning Buehrle should have been at the same priority as resigning Konerko was, if not more so, yet he did not have the funds. His biggest (and only move) was trading the cost-controlled relief pitcher for a guy who might be Jose Contreras out of the rotation and will hopefully be Jose Contrereas out of the bullpen (dude does look good). I'm more pissed at Williams because it's going to take a cold day in Hell for this team to win more than 85 games next year. More likely, even with good years from Beckham, Rios, AND Dunn, this team is going to win 83 games and spending like $20 million on a bullpen, which might give the Sox 300 innings (if they're lucky) when, instead, he could have dealt Danks for the best offer received, dealt Thornton for the best offer received, and NOT TENDERED FRASOR A CONTRACT, the Sox could have actually made an offer to Buehrle (I would not have been surprised to see him take 4/$50 from the Sox), they'd have some pieces for the future, and we wouldn't have to see Buehrle pitch in the worst uniform in all of Major League Baseball. Williams failed, and not only on Buehrle. He had, by far, the most disappointing Winter Meetings of any and all GMs. This should have been his litmus test. I hope, and I really, really do hope, that it was. And I hope he failed. Williams needs to go, regardless of whether he is a hypocrite. QUOTE (TitoMB @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 06:30 PM) This guy has been, by all accounts, a class act, on and off the field. He will go down as one of the most beloved White Sox players ever. I can't not agree more. I do love Buehrle. I saw him make his first career start and get his first career win - in Minnesota, July 19th, 2000 - and I will never stop loving him. That doesn't matter to me. As a White Sox fan, first and foremost, I want him on my team, and when he is not, I do not wish for his success. I genuinely do not care how he performs with "Miami." He burned a bridge at which he will not ever care to look. It matters not to me. I won't care if he wins a Cy Young or is Barry Zito Jr. Mark Buehrle is Mike Pelfrey as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately for me, I also agree with this.

And I still don't feel bad about what I said (other than the him getting injured part). I hope he flops miserably, especially now that he's back with what's his name. Atleast he'll be comfortable, I guess. I do think it would be sweet if he were terrible and Reyes got hurt and the Marlins won 70 games this year. That would be awesome.