witesoxfan

QUOTE(Jeremy @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 02:18 AM) Look no further than the Chris Young trade: the consensus in baseball is that Young is a highly promising young player and we got hosed in the deal but many White Sox fans still adamantly defend the deal. The fact that Javy put up an ERA under 4 really tends to help that cause. And Javy put up an ERA under 4 in the AL Central. What's your point? There are two sides to this story; the only reason the Vazquez deal looks bad right now is because the Sox are bad; if the Sox are good, and Javy's a big part of that, nobody even looks back on this deal. It's a huge winner of a trade. That's what hurts most about the deal; it's not that the Sox lost Young, it's that they got a semi-expensive starting pitcher when the team is seemingly not going to be good by the end of the decade. That's absolute bulls***. How many people went crazy about how much the Sox gave up for half a year of Freddy Garcia? Beyond that, people were pissed off about the Vazquez trade, and that involved ONE prospect, not THREE in comparison to the Swisher deal. Most Sox fans understand value; they differ on whether it was the right time for such a move, but they generally can tell whether the Sox gave up too much or too little. It's not always a good deal; you know that that's a garbage statement. What they are saying is that the Sox pitching prospects generally don't pan out well; can you blame them? Jon Rauch and Gary Majewski are among the few traded prospects to pan out for another team. That's why Sox fans really don't care about trading pitching prospects. And for every all-star and superstar prospect, you have more who flame out...what's your point? You are merely looking at one side and seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the White Sox do not produce prospects at a very good rate and that when they do produce quite a few prospects, they generally flame out and become nobodies. They've had their share of good players come up through the system, without a doubt, but it's not as if they have been a prospect factory over the past 5-10 years.

QUOTE(lostfan @ Jan 7, 2008 -> 03:03 AM) New England is unbeaten, not unbeatable. It's not a coincidence that the teams that actually have the balls to blitz Brady aggressively and force him into making mistakes are the ones that have been the closest to winning. Those teams also have a versatile rushing attack... NE had no answer for Addai, Westbrook, or even McGahee off the top of my head. I happen to think Jacksonville has a very good chance of beating the Pats. I don't necessarily think the Jags will win but it certainly won't be easy for the Pats. So long as the wind cooperates, MJD and Taylor can run all damn day on the Patriots defense and they still won't score enough to beat New England. If the wind is bad, then it might be a good game, though nothing I saw out of Jacksonville leads me to believe that they have enough of a passing game for New England to respect it. I expect to see 7-8 in the box all game long from them, and they'll make Garrard beat them. If he can make it close, by all means, but he may have to produce 3-4 touchdowns through the air for it to be a close game, and even then you still have one of the greatest offenses of all time on the other side. There are about 3-4 scenarios I see where this is a decent game; all else conclude in New England thrashing Jacksonville. Thus, I figure it's an easy win for New England.

QUOTE(ChWRoCk2 @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 10:59 PM) Theres that slight chacne Jacksonville's RBs didn't do so hot today, if the weather is cold enough in New England that it turns into a running game then the Jaguars could make a game of it. So I guess if your looking to see an upset hope for lots of snow in Foxboro. Just a hunch. How much is it going to have to snow to stop the New England passing attack? 4 inches? This looks like an easy win for New England, especially with a week of rest.

max sapp is ghey

Clemens is the funniest joke in sports right now.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 6, 2008 -> 11:56 PM) well, I think Young will be a decent player, but a lot of people here are proclaiming him to be the next Carlos Beltran or something, and thats bs. If by Carlos Beltran, you mean Mike Cameron, then yes. I've never seen a Young-Beltran comparison in my life.

I think Gio is going to have the most success of those 3. A bit of durability, solid stuff, flyball pitcher who is moving to a cavernous stadium; his characteristics seem to sort of resemble Barry Zito.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 10:56 PM) Oh wow, they had similar stats. OMG, wow, that is amazing... I don't give a s***. Petit is a nice guy to have in the rotation and someone I can see being a no. 3, but DLS was much more raw and put up those stats with only 2 pitches. With good coaching and the addition of a changeup, DLS will be an ace. Plain and simple. He has close to the best stuff in all of the minors. FDLSINAA FWIW, I've never seen such an outrageous argument from anyone else on the board. Most aces have 4 good pitches, control of them, composure on the mound, and durability. DLS has 2 good pitches, who knows about how well he can control them, and there's no idea of his composure nor durability. To suggest that a pitcher has "close to the best stuff in all of the minors" when it is admitted earlier in the post that he has "only two pitches," you begin to understand how ridiculous the argument is to begin with. DLS has years and years of work to do before he becomes anything near an ace. He looks more like Francisco Rodriguez than Pedro Martinez right now, and both of those are huge stretches to begin with.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 5, 2008 -> 06:28 PM) People are starting to think I hate this trade because of Sweeney being gone. While I will miss Sweeney as I was a huge fan of his, I hate this trade because we gave up a future ace, yes ace, in DLS. Really? From having seen him pitch one time? just for comparison's sake De Los Santos - 2007 - 122.1 IP, 2.65 ERA, 0.92 WHIP, 11.3 K/9, 3.2 BB/9, 3.6 K/BB, 0.6 HR/9 between A and A+ Mystery pitcher - recently - 139.1 IP, 2.52 ERA, 0.92 WHIP, 12.9 K/9, 2.8 BB/9, 4.5 K/BB, 0.5 HR/9, between A, A+, and AA Mystery pitcher threw more innings, had a better ERA, allowed the same amount of baserunners, exhibited better stuff, better control, allowed homers at a better rate, and did so over 3 levels, though he only threw 12 innings at AA. Do you really think people consider Yusmeiro Petit to be a future ace?

ERNIE YOUNG FAN CLUB

QUOTE(The Beast @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 05:03 PM) What do you mean by this? Danny Wright sucks

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 09:05 PM) Jeremy Reed's swing is nothing compared to Ryan's. You sound like a little kid who has lost his teddy bear.

So, using T9 texting, just type the word "roids" into your phone. If your phone is as cool as mine, it's kinda funny.

QUOTE(max power @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 11:04 AM) Whose is more questionable? Dontrelle willis is coming off a s*** year in the NL. Kenny Rogers is 110 years old and was injured all year. Bonderman has had one good year, he sucks. Robertson the same, he sucks. All they have is Verlander, who projects according to one source to have a 3.76 era this coming year. The other guy who might make the rotation has very little big league experience. How often do guys come up and pitch well in their first major experience? Not very. They have one guy they can reasonable expect to have a good year. Even the sox have two. What motivation did Dontrelle have to be good? The Marlins sucked, and he knew they were going to suck. He seems to be the kind of guy who doesn't give a s*** when nobody else gives a s***. Perhaps I'm reading him wrong, but that's what I see. Regardless, he should be a good #5 pitcher for them, and that's really all they'll need out of him. Bonderman is 2-f***ing-5, if he sucks, then so does Garland. If you are about to make that claim, you'll lose any credibility this argument ever had. He's a young pitcher with outstanding stuff who hasn't quite figured it out. I tend to think he'll figure it out at some point, and I think it will be sooner rather than later. Robertson is a good 3-4 starter. Nothing you can say will prove that any differently. You can say "he sucks" but Floyd, Danks, and Contreras all sucked worse last year, and Vazquez and Buehrle both sucked worse as recently as 2006. So your claim that "he sucks" means absolutely nothing to me. Rogers was pretty solid last year upon returning. I don't know why that would change because he's gone from 42 to 43; it's not like his body is going to go from outstanding shape to garbage in a split second. At this point in time, he is who he is until his arm literally falls off of his body, and age seems pretty irrelevent. They may only have one guy they can expect to pitch well, where the White Sox have 2, but they have 5 that they can expect to put up an ERA under 5. The White Sox still only have 2.

So Gio is now Jim Parque Jr. Nice. This trade is going to look worse than it actually will be because Gio is going to be good in Oakland; switching to a worse division and a much, much better ballpark will help that immensely. I could see him putting up a 4.25 ERA within the next year or two where he would be putting up 4.75-5.00 as a member of the Sox. Quite frankly, same thing applies to Swisher too.

QUOTE(Vance Law @ Jan 4, 2008 -> 10:17 AM) Not a personal attack or anything. Just illustrating my point that people will hyper-focus on the question marks surrounding our team (our rotation in this case) and the COMPLETELY GIVE A PASS to other teams with the same or similar ????s. Chisoxfn pointed out how Bonderman's stuff is great but admitted his performance hasn't measured up. If Bonderman were on the Sox all these years putting up the EXACT same performance, a majority of people here would have been calling for his head by his second season (and probably his first). "He's worthless, sell him for a bag of balls, he's a head case, I don't give a crap about STUFF if you can't get hitters out," etc, etc, etc. And that's just Bonderman. That's not even mentioning their 3-5 starters. Nate Robertson has turned into a decent 3 or 4 starter. Kenny Rogers is still a decent 3 or 4 starter. Dontrelle Willis will be a decent 3 or 4 starter, and I think he'll be very good his first couple times around the AL. Verlander's a stud, and Bonderman should be pretty solid - I'm still waiting for him to break through, but he never has. Perhaps that's next year; his career has thus far mimicked Jon Garland's pretty well, and Garland had a monster year in his age 25 season. Perhaps Bonderman will, hopefully he doesn't. Only time will tell. Regardless, I'd much rather have Detroit's rotation than the Sox' rotation. They do provide experience, and have all been very solid recently, which cannot be said about 3/5ths of the White Sox rotation. Neither are very good, but I do believe that Detroit's is better and has a higher upside.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 11:28 PM) He does have a changeup though. It's not a great one, but I assume the A's minor league brass will have him working on it like crazy in the next year or 2. A pitcher such as Santana who has a great FB and slider shows how good an effective changeup can be. I've lost count how many White Sox hitters have K'd against that change over the years. You just have to remember, we haven't had a pitching prospect who has had the same type of stuff as Fautino De Los Santos had over at least the past few years. All I'm hoping is that we can find another in the Latin America region this year, because god knows our farm system needs it. Santana's changeup is filthy. That pitch, moreso than anything else, is why he is as dominant as he is. If/when he only throws 92-94, and if that changeup is still as nasty as it is today, he will still be an outstanding pitcher. His slider is his "worst" pitch; it seems pretty average, but when it comes at you when he's also throwing 93-96 and then a 78 change, it's pretty hard to hit all the same. QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 11:31 PM) It wasn't made to be a pinpoint statement, and its not really bold. Point is, he's pretty f***ing good now, and pretty soon will be one of the top SP in the majors. There are maybe 2-3 other SP in the majors that can match his pure stuff Absolutely agree with that

QUOTE(scenario @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 04:28 PM) I always enjoy seeing these numbers, but... what a bunch of crap. In 7 full season in MLB, Mark Buehrle has had a sub-4.00 ERA five times. So, how's he going to do next year? Oh... he'll have a 4.32 ERA and the second worst season of his career. Yeah. Sure. Alright. Projections generally aren't very nice to Buehrle. They don't take kindly to finesse pitchers. Player Spotlight - Mark Buehrle ERA W L G GS INN H ER HR BB K ERA+ Optimistic (15%) 3.49 15 8 33 33 227 230 88 22 40 134 133 Mean 4.32 11 10 30 30 202 224 97 24 47 108 107 Pessimistic (15%) 5.38 7 11 25 25 159 198 95 23 43 74 86 He usually finishes better than the mean, and they throw this out there for you too. And he has essentially finished as bad as that pessimistic, as 2006 was really, really bad.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 11:20 PM) No I'm being serious here. It was his 1st full season in the minors, and his K/9 ratios indicate he's a pretty dang good prospect. There's not many other prospects out there who have the FB / Slider combo that he has. I think you're seriously underrating him only because 1 - He doesn't have a good 3rd pitch yet (which can be developed) and; 2 - He only reached high A ball at the end of 2007. I love DLS, but without a 3rd pitch - which may or may not be developed - he's nothing more than a bullpen arm as far as I'm concerned. He'd be a filthy reliever, but a reliever nonetheless.

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 11:14 PM) Was that really a serious comment? Verlander may be the best young SP in the majors. That's a pretty bold/vague statement. I mean, what's your definition of young? Sabathia was 26 last year and won a Cy Young; that's pretty good as far as I'm concerned. And Scott Kazmir is 23 and put up a lower ERA than Verlander too.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 10:54 PM) wite, I'm not entirely sure why you'd want someone's left nut. But I am sure that when you start betting your genitals on baseball, it's time to reassess things. Well I figured I'd come to some other agreement later, like a finger or something, but it seems pretty macho betting something like that. And then I'd donate the nut to charity in all likelihood. You know, show them that I am actually a good character guy even when taking another's nut.

QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 02:52 PM) KW doesn't know which direction to go. Rebuild or play for this season? Can't you do both? I mean, KW is putting the best product on the field he can, but he's putting together a core of good, young, cheap players too at the same time. Whether KW believes this team will win the division is one thing - I'm sure he would, off the record, acknowledge it as a possibility but not a likelihood. Regardless of that, he's putting a pretty damn good offense on the field and they are getting set to have a pretty solid offensive team for a few years. There are now replacements on this team for Konerko, Thome, and Dye in the middle of the lineup. That's something nice to have.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 02:34 PM) I'd bet my left nut that Contreras is WAY over the hill and will do nothing significant in the MLB ever again, and will be our worst pitcher next year... I'll take that bet. I also see someone's just a little upset over losing Ryan Sweeney.

Well, this is the kind of move that allows a team to reach the postseason iff absolutely everything goes right. The rotation itself is a question mark right now, but I see Contreras as a huge wild card right now. If he pitches well, the team could be in for a surprise season; if not, the Sox are screwed.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 3, 2008 -> 02:04 AM) sounds painful... but with the way the gold market it now, it'd be worth it. so worth it