witesoxfan

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jul 12, 2007 -> 10:43 PM) Hafner is already 30, and what's his excuse for his big drop in numbers this season? what was Frank's excuse for 1998, when he was, coincidentally, 30? or 1999? Throughout it all, he's putting up an .850 OPS. Players are never allowed to have down years it would seem.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jul 12, 2007 -> 10:13 PM) This seems like a good thread to ask the question. Seriously, to all of you who I trust with knowledge of baseball: Can you identify or could KW identify somebody the Sox could acquire from a non contender to pitch the sixth and seventh innings or seventh and eighth preferably? Is anybody out there we could get for a prospect or two? Anybody??? Not this year he better not.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 13, 2007 -> 01:31 AM) Interesting that you find that so hilarious. I want to see you kick a 50 yard field goal. I bet Erstad can't either.

TIMO

First of all, for God's sake the White Sox are not a mid-market team. They have like the 4th highest payroll in all of baseball, tell me how and when being in the top 15% has ever been in the middle? It's ridiculous to think so. Secondly, if people are willing to pay them, they are worth it. Plain and simple. If someone came up to you and said you were worth $10 an hour, would you tell them you're worth $7 an hour because that is actually what you're worth?

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jul 12, 2007 -> 07:50 AM) Contreras could probably bring you back Damion Easley and Gotay right now. Not worth selling while he is in a slump. Dye is obviously having a terrible year, but if he accepts arbitration and comes back next season, his numbers might be closer to last seasons than this seasons and he definitely would have more trade value then. I think it is a moot point anyway because there is no way he accepts arbitration. Crede is a high risk/high reward offseason sign. However if he can be had four $4 mil, it is definitely worth taking a chance to see if he can rebound and earn some value back next season, and if not Josh will be a solid insurance policy. I agree the big three will be Buerhle, Vazquez, and Danks. Garland should be traded for some position players that will help out next year. I bet Contreras brings back more than that. It won't be much more, but it's addition by subtraction in my mind. That's $10 mill off the books, and $10 mill off for the next two years as well. If KW can convince Minaya that he just needs some pitching adjustments made, he can sell him at a reasonable price. You're not getting Milledge or Gomez, but they are interested in him and it's very plausible that something could be worked out where the Sox get some actual talent in return. I think Dye's a moot point because I don't think there's any way the Sox will offer him arbitration. That's $7 mill hanging in the balance, and you can think he will bounce back next year all you want to, but the possibility also remains he won't. If he doesn't, he has LESS value next year, and you are lucky to get a 35 year old minor league vet for him. I think he'll be better than this next year too, but it's almost impossible for him not to be. And if the organization is moving towards the future, and the future at 3B is Josh Fields, and he puts up respectable numbers in the majors, why would waste $4 million on Joe Crede who is high risk/medium reward (he's a mediocre 3Bman with a very good glove; if I may borrow Kalapse's comparison, Ed Sprague). There's very little point in bringing back Crede unless he can magically prove that he can play an adequate 2B; if that happens, we can bring Dye back and stick him at SS too.

QUOTE(WHITESOXRANDY @ Jul 12, 2007 -> 02:04 PM) You're right not too many. I will just never forget that the flubs got Ramirez for free basically and they got Kenny Lofton thrown in. Every time I really think about Ramirez it just burns me up that the Sox didn't get him. I guess because he was on my personal radar at the time and wishing the Sox could get him and then the flubbies pick him up for a box of balls. Also, Oliver Perez is another guy that I thought the Sox should have gone after. I do like Bay a lot and his salary is not that low. I think some team will get a good deal on him. I would guess it would cost something like Gio, Sweeney, and Aardsma/MacDougal/Masset to acquire Bay, and that is probably on the low side. For a team that is like 8 pieces away from being able to put a competent team on the field - namely the entire outfield, 2B, SS, a starting pitcher, and like 2-3 relievers), you don't give up that much young talent for one very good player who is only under contract for 2 years. After those 2 years are up, you then have to worry about resigning him, and as is, the Sox have too much money tied up between about 5-6 players. You add a 7th and the bottom of the order quickly becomes Gonzalez, Richar, Sweeney, and Owens with Gavin Floyd as the 5th starter and a bullpen as bad as this team's has been. That's just something that the Sox cannot afford.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 01:19 PM) I think $7 mil is not a bad number given the current and the projected offseason market. Ichiro just got $20 mil, and A-Rod is now projected to get around $30 mil. I think Jermaine still has some gas in the tank, just is having a very off year. There is no reason not to keep him and offer him arbitration. Worst case scenario is that Dye is back next year affordably. That will allow us to try to pony up some money for Fukodome. Dye, Fukodome, and Sweeney would be a decent OF next season. If Dye declines arbitration than we have a chance to add some more young talent to our farm system. Fukodome is not coming here; he will cost probably around $10-12 mill a year, and the Sox won't pay that for a completely unproven commodity. And worst case scenario is Sweeney-Erstad-Gonzalez with Dye on the DL after accepting arbitration, or something to that extent. QUOTE(SoxAce @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 01:38 PM) I'll agree with this. Hell, Jermaine could of gotten alot more than that if he wasn't loyal to KW giving him his word back in the offseason in 04-05. I don't care if he hits .240 this year 7 mil for a guy who is obviously in an off year even if he's older.. not bad at all. That being said I want a young team next season but I'll definitely take a nice young core with some veterans. 1. Dye would not have gotten that much more had he not accepted the White Sox offer. 2. Dye might not hit .240 this year. 3. That $7 mill could be for a .750 OPS with 2 DL stints. That's not really worth it.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 09:31 PM) Yes, but no one heard Garland say last time that he wanted to stay in Chicago and EVERYONE assumed he wanted to go to the West Coast. But, lo and behold, he took a little less and stayed. KW may trade him, but I'd offer him Buehrle's deal and keep him if he said yes. He also had about 2 years of arbitration left.

For Iguchi, what's better: any type of player at all or nothing? I think that question answers itself. Of course you're not going to get an A type prospect; if you expect that, you won't be making any trades this season unless you're trading Garland, Vazquez, Konerko, or Thome. For Contreras, of course he'll bring players back; if you put him on the DL, let his arm rest, and he doesn't come back strong, then what are you getting out of him? If you can get 1-2 players with upside, you do it and take it. For Dye, if he accepts arbitration, and the Sox have different plans for the outfield, he becomes an obstacle. And you seem to only be considering the fact that he'll come back healthy; if he comes back and he's unhealthy and putting up a .675 OPS again at the break next year, then the Sox have wasted a full year on him (dating from now to next July) and they will get LESS value for him next year. At least this year he's coming off a year in which he could have won an MVP. For Crede, plain and simply the least amount of money you can get coming off of arbitration is something like 80% of his salary this year. That means he'll be making $4 mill next year. Do you want to pay $4 mill for a player who is coming off of back surgery and has no place on the roster? And the 3 starting pitchers the Sox are building around are Buehrle, Vazquez, and Danks, and I'd be extremely surprised if it doesn't end up that way. And I really don't think he'll be able to deal Dye and Iguchi in the offseason.

they are all going to stumble and the Sox are going to win 25 straight

QUOTE(Jenks Heat @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 01:03 PM) My guess is that there is something going down between the Reds and the Sox regarding Griffey and/or Dunn involving Contreras, Floyd and Haegar. The Reds rotation with Bailey, Harang and Charles Bronson needs some 3 through 5 guys. With that park they need to avoid fly ball pitchers which Floyd and Haegar are not. I think if there is a 72 window with Dunn he could be moved to the Sox. Garland would be a huge chip with them as well if they think like a real organization as he would make the rotation pretty formidable especially in the NL. I really doubt KW will give up Gavin Floyd after only one major league start. This is a guy he's been talking up since the day he acquired him. He really likes Gavin for some reason, and he's going to be more than a throw in.

QUOTE(Felix @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 08:49 AM) It's pointless to move Dye because of his low value, but there is a huge point in trading Contreras and his horrible contract, even if all he brings back is peanuts. I'll disagree on Dye, simply because with this organization's use of the arbitration rules in the past, Dye won't be offered arbitration because they won't want him back at $7 mill.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 11:02 AM) Technically Garland said that much when he took a bit below market value for to forgoe free agency for either 1-2 more yeras (I forget which). I'm not saying he does it again nor would I hold it against him if he didn't, but I wouldn't count it against him either (I think he really likes it here and is comfortable here so if the Sox were interested and offered him a fair deal over the off-season he may jump at an extension). That said we have no idea whether Garland is in Ken Williams future plans. I'm not sure even Mark Buehrle was apart of Ken Williams long term plans; I would assume he was expecting Buehrle to try and get 6 years on the free agent market, and when he came back with something around the 5/75, and he found that Berry and Buehrle were then willing to work with 4/56, he had to take it; that type of value for a pitcher of Mark Buehrle's caliber is unheard of in this market. So, to add on to the bolded part, and seeing as how Garland has almost been moved twice in his tenure with the White Sox, I think it's very possible and likely that he will get moved. I don't think it will occur until the offseason, but I think it will happen.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 11, 2007 -> 01:33 AM) What makes you think that? Off-season 06 everyone pretty much thought Garland would go into free agency and see how much he could get and no one really thought he would sign an extension with the sox. Yet, he signed the extension. To me, I think the commitment to the Sox is there for Garland and that he could be signed for a Buehrle like contract. I have yet to see Garland say anywhere that he wants to stay in Chicago. And liking Chicago is completely different from wanting to stay in Chicago. Throughout the course of Mark Buehrle's career, he stated and has continued to state he wants to stay in Chicago. I don't ever recall Jon Garland making such a statement.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 07:18 PM) The bad news is it is still too early to tell whether we have the good Javy or the bad Javy. The good news is that, because he's signed for a long time, we don't have to decide this year. O RLY Javier Vazquez since August 1st 2006 ERA - 3.73 WHIP - 1.11 K/9 - 9 BB/9 - 2.3 K/BB - 4 Games Started - 29 Innings Pitched - 193 That's essentially a full seasons worth of work. I think the Javy that leaves for a month and leaves his s*** behind to pitch for him is gone. I just really, really doubt that Garland resigns for 4/56. I'm just not buying it.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 08:04 PM) In Buster Olney's chat today, he said that young prospects are the new gold in baseball. He's probably right. He also said that no one would offer more than 30 cents on the dollar in terms of trade value for guys like Jermaine Dye and Jose Contreras. If that is true, why should the Sox be active traders at the deadline? I doubt it's true, but you also have to be smart and realize you are not going to get a team's 2 top prospects for 2 and a half months of Jermaine Dye. You expect something reasonable in return, and you'll get something reasonable in return. Or he can accept his offer of arbitration of $7 mill and then leave the club with a contract they don't want on the books. It's entirely possible. Or he can get hurt, be considered damaged goods, and then he either accepts that offer of arbitration or the Sox don't get anything for him. A B to B+ prospect should net Jermaine Dye right now. He's terrible defensively, his offense does not make up for his defense, and Fukodome is not going to sign with the White Sox anyways. And, due to the fact that you cannot offer arbitration to Iguchi and receive compensation, you may as well trade him and get some type of compensation. Right, expect Lastings Milledge in return for Jose Contreras. I can see why you want to stand pat. Omar knows just as well as Kenny does who knows just as well as you or I that Jose is on the decline. He's not going to give up his best trading chip in Milledge for a 50 year old starting pitcher. And seeing if Gavin can handle the majors, regardless of whether it is the only good reason or not, is reason enough to move a 50 year old body. Bet you $50 bucks you are dead wrong on this one. Some team would give up a career minor leaguer to see if Pods can recover any of his speed and be useful as a 4th outfielder, and there would be multiple teams using Mackowiak as the great pinch hitter and utility player that he is. In Chicago, he's been a bit misused. Again, I know why you want to stand pat; you are trading the players who have performed poorly this year and not willing to trade the players who have played well. I fully expect Matt Thornton to be in a different uniform come August 1st simply because he's still got a ton of life left on his arm and he's had no real visible problems to speak of. Add to the fact that he turns 31 in September, and it's all the more reason to trade him and get value for him. Jenks is tradeable as hell as well because of the value he presents. He's not a guy I would look to move, but if someone offers me a package with a couple very good prospects, he's as good as gone. In the rebuilding process, an outstanding closer is about the last thing you add; when you get that piece added, you are very close to contending, because, important as it is, it is not a necessity on a rebuilding team. I haven't seen Garland talking to the media about his desire to stay in Chicago. Excuse me if I missed it, but I haven't. I think Garland is going to hit the market and he is going to want 5-6 years and $15-17 mill a year, and it's very plausible that he could get it. And with Garland, you can probably get a better package then the ones the Rockies received for Jason Jennings in the offseason, which is future #2-3 starter, a solid .725 OPS CFer with 50 steals and great defense, and a serviceable arm. That basically means the Sox can get 2 very good prospects for him, and that has more value in the long term then keeping him. Absolutely. Even as a 36 year old, he's one of the biggest threats in the AL, even when banged up a bit. A .977 OPS speaks for itself. Move him if you get the right package. What's a top closer who's had injury problems and decreases in velocity for a 2008 team that is almost certainly not going to win 90 games? What is he for a 2009 team that is likely to be in the same boat? There's no need to move him, but if you get the right package absolutely trade him. I think a non-tender is a real possibility in the offseason. Josh Fields looks like a really solid player, and Crede can't play 2B.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 08:19 AM) You could certainly be right. I just think most of us here had our expectations a little too high when it came to what we could receive for Freddy, I know I did. Not sure how much I agree with this, honestly. I really do think KW could have gotten Milledge or Pelfrey or some other top prospects for Garcia, but KW pretty much knew there was something wrong with Freddy physically, and he wanted to take the best offer he could get without having to give Garcia a physical. Getting two guys with great stuff for a guy that could very easily pitch like garbage this year (and has pitched like garbage) was all he needed. Or, the possibility remains that he could have gotten Gio, Gavin, and Rowand for him too, but again, the physical would have needed to take place. If Garcia takes the physical and fails, you are going to be lucky to get Gavin Floyd alone for him.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 10, 2007 -> 12:48 PM) I think it is stupid that teams haven't tried Soriano as a starter yet. Mariners did, but after his first season he moved to the pen. I think if the Braves were smart, they'd move Soriano to the rotation next season and go from there. Mikey Gonzalez would be an option for their future closer, but he will be coming off of TJ surgery. I haven't seen him pitch on a regular basis; I do know his main two pitches are a mid to high 90s fastball and a good slider, but aside from that, I'm not sure what else he features. He may not have the stuff necessary to start. Beyond that - and I think the main reason - is durability. He's been injury prone as a reliever; if he were starting, the injuries could very well multiply. It's an interesting thought, I'm just not sure if Soriano would be able to do so. And my blanket "no interest at all" statement is a little over the top. Every team in the majors would have interest in Bobby Jenks, but only a select few would be willing to pay what the White Sox would want in return. You are not going to get Saltalamacchia and Escobar from them when they have guys in their bullpen who are perfectly capable of closing.

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Jul 10, 2007 -> 01:53 PM) And aren't Pujols and Howard like the same age? Pujols has over 250 homers, or something. Also, I hate when people jump on players like Howard and Fielder because they're getting blown by the media. Do people honestly think that fatass Fielder is gonna hold up over the long haul? Ha, not gonna happen. Pujols and A-rod will both have PLENTY more homers in their careers than those two. Pujols is 2 months younger, so yes, they are basically the same age.

QUOTE(knightni @ Jul 10, 2007 -> 12:02 AM) How is that really a big difference then? Greene hasn't hit over .250 since one time in 2004. He hasn't hit over 15 home runs in a season yet (ok, he will this season most likely). 70 RBIs once. Career BA .253 Uribe (hit over .250 thrice and hit over .250 in his rookie season in half a year) 3 1/2 yrs over .250. He's hit 20 home runs twice. 70 RBIs thrice. Career BA .255 Both are 27. Uribe > Greene if you go offense alone. Uribe and Greene are both superior defenders, so that's a wash. Overall, Uribe is as good as Greene, if not better. Greene's the better offensive player; about the same power, more patience at the plate, better at making good contact. Greene plays half of his games at the best pitcher's park in the majors, while Uribe plays half of his at the best home run hitting park for right handers in the majors. That will have a slight effect offensively. Quite frankly, there's a reason why Greene's career OPS is 30 points higher and his career OPS+ is 20 points higher, and it is exactly because he is better offensively. And you are basing way too much on average. Is Alex Sanchez a better player than Adam Dunn?

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jul 10, 2007 -> 01:29 AM) well, I don't know how much interest the Astros would have in Dye (as Luke Scott is better then him in all aspects right now, and is a lefty), but I'd gladly take Lidge on this team. Now, I know the Astros could use a catcher, and Wickman has been really inconsistant. The Braves could use their future closer... How about a three way trade of: Jenks to Atlanta Salty, Escobar, Lidge to Chicago Pierzynski to Houston and some exchanging of prospects as well, most likely. Greene plays half of his games in a very pitcher friendly park while Uribe plays half of his games in a launching pad... I really think the Braves already have their future closer in Rafael Soriano and that they have absolutely no interest at all in Bobby Jenks.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jul 10, 2007 -> 03:10 AM) I think Gwynn might be the better pure hitter, but there is no doubt that Bonds is the most feared hitter and probably one of, if not the best hitters in MLB history. BTW, when it's all said and done, Ryan Howard (and possibly Prince Fielder) will have more HR's than Bonds, Griffey, Pujols, Rodriguez, etc. You do realize that Ryan Howard is 27 and not 23, right? Is he going to hit 50 homers for 11 straight years? 'Cuz even if he did that, he'd only have 582 homers at age 37. Assuming by the time his career ends someone has 800 homers, he'd not only have to average 50 homers a year for the next 10, but he'd also have to then average 37 homers from age 37 to 43. It'll never happen. Hell, Alex Rodriguez is only 4 years older than Ryan Howard, and he's been in the majors 10 more years. That's a ridiculous difference. He started in 1996 all year and put up a .358/.414/.631/1.045 line in - as a 20 year old. He didn't finally legally get drunk until over halfway through the season. By the time Ryan Howard was even drafted, Alex Rodriguez had hit 206 homers. No, Ryan Howard will never catch Alex Rodriguez, unless Rodriguez gets hurt and ends his career considerably short.

QUOTE(ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 9, 2007 -> 02:39 PM) I'd argue the exact opposite that the talent pool is thinner now due to their being 3 times as many teams with guys on major league rosters who would strugggle to make it in AAA back then. less then twice as many teams, and yes, that makes a difference. There aren't 48 teams in the majors. And I'd also argue the exact opposite, I imagine there were players starting back then that wouldn't have made it to AAA now. Ray Schalk, the famed White Sox catcher, had an OPS+ of 83; that's a backup nowadays. MLB rosters are just absolutely filled with talent now a days.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 8, 2007 -> 07:24 PM) While everyone expects Contreras to be traded, his value is next to nothing. And even then, the sox would have to pony up some cash to unload him. Or the sox will have to trade bad contracts [which may not be a bad idea--say Jack Wilson and Pittsburgh]. I guess one of the teams in playoff contention may take a flier on Jose, provided he has a few decent starts before the 31st. If not, teams will think he's hurt and will stay away from him. I'd expect Jose to see some time on the DL if he gets lit up after the ASB. If Jose gets some time off, and has a 2nd half ala Freddy in 2006, then trade him in the offseason. But as of now, he likely won't be going anywhere. I really think Contreras has more value than you are giving him credit for. He's not going to get you a top propsect, but he will get you two serviceable players with potential to become MLB players someday. And Jack Wilson is really flat out terrible.