caulfield12

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:14 PM) I wouldn't call the second half of 2013-14 a rebuild. That time period is too truncated for an actual rebuild. Not only that, they didn't really focus on long term prospect development. They brought in guys who can contribute to the MLB roster immediately, with exception of a few pitchers and Matt Davidson-- who they intended on bringing up right away, but he just could not hit the ball. If they maintained the course of direction heading into 2015 and traded Alexei Ramirez when his value was at its peak, while maintaining the 2nd and 3rd round draft picks for 2015--I'd say OVERALL, the organization would be in a much better shape. The fact of the matter is, they went for it in 2015 and failed and the farm system once again took a back seat, which we are very much noticing this year with the lack of position player depth to help alleviate positional player injuries. Since this is year 2 of KW's phantom 3 year window, I really do not foresee them trading away veterans for an influx of youth. However, doing so may actually accelerate the rebuild that could have been if they stayed on that 2013-14 course of action. For instance, lets say they keep: Sale, Rodon, Eaton, Anderson and Abreu but decided to trade off veterans like: Quintana, Robertson, Melky and Frazier-- hello youth influx! A Quintana trade alone can bring in multiple position players with high level talent. We are talking a team's #1 prospect AND their #6-10 prospect. Robertson, Melky and Frazier would be very attractive pieces to a contending team and can also bring in some team's top 10 prospects as well. Selling high on players is something KW or Hahn rarely does. It something that can rock the foundation of an organization-- perhaps it is something this stale playoff-less organization needs to consider this deadline. It is either that OR another year watching October baseball from their couches coming up with new ways to 'retool' the same roster for 2017. (sigh) See Humber, Crain, Floyd, Crede, Jenks, Alexei, etc. (hold on too long, not selling) We can't also say "stay the course" without seriously considering how fragile the whole thing is...we haven't built up pitching depth like the Mets or Indians that we could have Sale OR Q or even Rodon go down to a significant injury without completely junking the WHOLE plan for 1 to 1 1/2 years (if not longer if they didn't recover from surgery as well as expected, or had a shoulder/labrum injury like Danks). If you look at 2004-05 cycle, we brought in Garcia/Contreras (who turned out to be Two Top 25-35 pitchers in the league during that time before injuries), an effective closer for half a season in Hermanson (not to mention Takatsu to hold down the fort), a quality complementary piece in Iguchi, two key cogs in both Dye and AJ (Dye due to injury, AJ due to rep hit he took in SF), Bobby Jenks via waiver claim...the season before that, Carl Everett, etc. Then, Pods and Vizcaino. So, 1) we don't have the talent in our minor league system to bring in the equivalent of another Garcia trade without trading away significant major league talent, and 2) we haven't brought that much collective talent onto the major league roster since Floyd/Danks/Alexei/Quentin/Beckham/Viciedo in the 2007/08 cycle. Look at that list again though....a #1 and #2 starting pitcher, three closers, four LEGIT starting position players close to their primes, and even spare parts like El Duque and Vizcaino. Not to mention "off the radar" moves like Cliff Politte breaking their way, and Cotts becoming a dominant reliever for a season. Could any GM in history replicate that rebuilding on the fly approach today, with the talent and resources the White Sox currently have? It screams fluke/anomaly/luck, especially AJ and Dye both being available as they were (for diff reasons), as well as Jenks and then Contreras almost miraculously becoming the best pitcher in baseball for four plus months. Instead, in the recent years, we've gotten almost all busts in free agency (where we've been overpaying to boot), mostly bad trades or talent identification (Flowers, Davidson, Avi, Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart, etc.), lots of poor drafts (other than Sale)....journeymen AAA guys or waiver claims like DeAza (who was "pretty good" for a couple of years) and more recently Gillaspie that produce over stretches but aren't suited to full-time play....and then all the dumpster diving over the last 3-4 years due to limited budgets. We've almost completely missed out in Latin America (see Cubs/Rangers/Indians' rosters) and we haven't done much work in Japan/Korea at all (see recent influx of Korean players). All that adds up to being a "better mediocre team" but still stuck in the middle.

It's nice to know they're not intent on rushing Collins like it appears they're read to do with some of the pitchers (as relievers). The main problem is that 2017 is setting up as their final "all in" year...and the market for catching is looking pretty bleak for the moment, so we're back to "band aid/dumpster diving" solutions again. Nothing we can do about it, but it would be awesome to have him for the second half of 2017...and maybe that still happens. It would be like pulling off a trade, just like injecting Tim Anderson into the line-up has been this year. Looking at the future, you have a core of Anderson, Abreu, Eaton and Collins. But that still leaves five potential holes for 2018 in LF, CF, 3B, 2B (that's easier to imagine Saladino/Sanchez filling) and DH. I also don't realistically think Saladino can play 3rd, Sanchez 2B and still have enough power (been there, done that)...but somehow we need to come up with at least two more power bats (corner outfield/DH/another infielder at either 2B/3B with pop). Hard to project Engel/Trey/May as future starters right now. At any rate, getting a 750-800 OPS out of Collins will help a lot. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, Hahn finds one big bat in July/August this year...but this has to be the biggest concern for Sox fans when they look at 2017, 2018 and on into the future. Doesn't even have to be LH power (shout out to Lillian), but just any legit power/OBP combo.

They're not going to trade Betts and Moncada for Q. That's CRAZY talk.

If the asking price is Moncada, the Red Sox are going to fall back to their secondary packages that start with Benitendi...let's say, someone like Rich Hill (who was Boston property not so long ago) or Sonny Gray. With Gray's ERA still hovering above 5, Beane would be better off holding onto him unless he's totally bowled over with an offer. Everything not nailed down in the starting rotation for Tampa Bay (meaning all the starters other than Archer) are on the market as well. The Padres might choose to build around Drew Pomeranz or leverage him for a huge return this year, assuming he won't continue to overperform like this. Likewise, anyone you want in the Twins' rotation is available for the right price as well...Santana being the most attractive target. Teheran and Vizcaino from the Braves. Thankfully there are other suitors for Q, such as the Rangers and Dodgers that have the pieces to possibly make some sense. Or the Cubs, although that's a one in a million likelihood of happening.

The Indians are 3-6 in their last 9. Not sure if that exactly constitutes a free fall. Brantley's starting his minor league rehab assignment within the next 24-48 hours.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...y.html#comments Story on Moncada and Benitendi....who, if he were on the Sox, would turn into Jeremy Reed

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/7/10/1214...ors-yasiel-puig Dodgers open to trading Puig, but must receive MLB pieces back in return http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/7/8/12132...hner-de-la-rosa Looking at this article, you'd think the White Sox actually have MORE motivation to make a move at the deadline, because they have two aces lined up for the post-season in Sale/Q...and both teams pretty much have to make the decision to begin rebuilding or go all-in at the All-Star Break in 2017. How desperate are both owners to get to the post-season??

But it's almost impossible to separate the two because development (let's just say, skill refinement) often happens at the major league level...around top flight coaches like Don Cooper or Joe Maddon. Instead of saying who HAS developed and should take credit for it, try the opposite (WHO HASN'T): Soler, that's a hard one to decide, because the major league results are inconclusive so far due to injuries. Let's say call him a disappointment so far, but no better or worse than, let's say, Dayan Viciedo or Avi Garcia. One thing that has become pretty true across the board is almost all Cuban hitters (other than Cespedes) are having trouble adjusting back to pitching adjustments made to them (see Abreu and Puig, Rusney Castillo, etc.) Every hitter, though, is unique. You can't say the Red Sox are GREAT at developing talent simply because Moncada becomes a star...as everyone saw that coming, right? Almora, based on draft position...perhaps, but jury's still out again. Contreras....looks pretty good so far. Schwarber...not much development they had to do. But they picked him MUCH higher than almost anyone in baseball had him on their boards. If you want to argue AGAINST the Cubs being good at developing talent, the argument's centered around Soler, Almora and Javier Baez, although Baez certainly has been an overall positive (despite the occasional defensive misplay, which comes from being moved all around and never getting comfortable with one position, see Semien, Marcus.) Vogelbach gets mentioned a lot, and he's become a solid prospect in their system even though he has been doubted at every turn...of course, the obvious problem is there's nowhere for him to play. Addison Russell, can you blame their minor league system when he was barely in it...and no, making the All-Star team doesn't mean they've succeeded, but clearly he can play very good defense and if his bat comes around at all, he's going to be a consistent 3-4 WAR provider. Concepcion was doubted by everyone in baseball when they "overpaid" for him, and he made it to the big leagues. Jimenez and Torres have developed from raw/toolsy athletes into consensus Top 20-30 MILB prospects, if not higher. Edwards has looked REALLY good out of the bullpen so far, and has impressive stuff...he's already moved up to the Nate Jones 8th inning role for Maddon. At worst, you can say they made some mistakes with Soler and Almora (and that's not even for sure, just has taken LONGER to develop than previously projected) and Baez still has the contact issues, but it's almost impossible to make an assessment at this exact moment in time unless we look at all these prospects from the perspective of 2021 looking backwards. Finally, how do they not get credit for Kyle Hendricks?

Then you can add Torres and Jimenez (so far)...Almora has spent a ton of time in their system, although he hasn't proven anything yet. If you're the Cubs, the only thing that matters is having multiple streams of talent to feed the system, which they do via trades, under/over 21 Latin American signings/international free agents and drafting. Now, all that SAID, if Arrieta breaks down at some point in July or August, they're going to be completely screwed because Lester and Lackey might not be good enough (at least as they are now) to be the linchpins of a playoff rotation. A month ago, as a Cubs' fan, you would have said, "we got this!" because they looked THAT good, with the caveat it was mostly against inferior competition. Let's keep reminding ourselves....2006 Chicago White Sox, 26 games over .500 at the All-Star Break. Now I highly doubt the Pirates and Cards are going to go all Twins/Tigers from that year, but stranger things have happened if you removed their #1 starter from the equation.

Has someone sent the memo to Ventura? The problem is that as abysmal as he has been in non-save situations, who does he have that he can trust outside of Jones/Duke and possibly Jennings right now (with a 4 run lead)?

I would go with Q, Sale, Eaton and Anderson...Frazier's hard to argue for, because of his batting average and "decent" OPS.

DEVELOPMENT ISN'T THE KEY. IT'S IDENTIFYING TALENT...especially if it's undervalued. SEE Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Alexei, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Nate Jones, Addison Reed, Hector Santiago, Sergio Santos, etc. The problem is we haven't been very good at it, by and large, since the 2008 playoff team...and going on 7-8 years now.

Haha...that's a good way to put it. Better mediocre team. Brooks Boyer, get right on that one for the second half...will rank right up there with the busted THE WILL TO WIN campaign that never even got off the ground because of team play. And really, a lot of that's due to Frazier, Cabrera and now Tim Anderson...and Eaton's overall game improving.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2015/sort/saves Since we're playing the SV/SVO card, how does that excuse 2015? You have to go all the way down to Fernando Rodney at #31 in total saves to find ANYONE in the top 30 with SEVEN blown saves. Robertson is all alone right there in that category. You can blame the Sox defense all you want, but he hasn't been one of the Top 5 or even Top 10 closers in all of baseball since we signed him. By salary we should be getting ELITE.

Morneau didn't play at Charlotte or for BIRM. What happened? Thought he was going to get one final day of AB's on Sunday? Sent him home to spend time with his family one day early...before Friday's action started back up?

The Cubs can get away with trading Baez, Edwards, Jr., Almora, Jr. or McKinney and still not really impact their future core. Soler busting isn't really going to end up having much of an impact with the resources they're playing around with there. (And that's not even considering Schwarber as well and what they do with him.) I'm not sure you could get Jimenez and Torres if you offered our entire system (pre 2016 draft). Even then, not sure. Vogelbach would be our #4-6 prospect and can't even sniff the Top 10 over there. (And, let's be honest, EVERYONE in the entire world knew a 99-100 MPH fastball was coming there...but that bat speed anticipating it was still quite impressive.)

Seeing why it's not obvious that Burdi's set to just come up and dominate with Stanek's struggles. And the Cubs...what an embarrassment of riches, between Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez...talk about bat speed and hand-eye coordination. Obviously whoever ranked him first coming out of that international class (and it was pretty universal) wasn't off on their projection.

Moncada is the man. I'm not even 100% sure the Red Sox would trade him for Quintana...let alone adding Benitendi. At some point, they'll have to replace Pedroia. And it's not like Travis Shaw is going to stand in his way at 3B. The offer will be Benitendi and other "famous" Red Sox prospect names at the lower levels. Maybe Owens is another.

And Cain will come back from his hamstring. Davis will be back. Adding those two will have more of an impact than Burdi/Morneau/Austin Jackson. KC's not going to sit by idly when they've had so many problems with Medlen and Chris Young pooping the bed. Kennedy's been a bit better than expected, Volquez and Ventura worse than expected. Duffy has essentially kept that rotation in it to this point (along with a boatload of unranked/rated minor league prospects few had ever heard of before 2016). With Morales now showing he's likely to be a solid player, and those crazy home/road record splits, you can be sure they're not going to tear anything down with 1 1/2 years left in their window. Those decisions will come next year at the ASB. THAT said, I'm not even sure optimistic KC fans think they have what it takes to hang with the AL East, Indians, Rangers (who will surely make another move or two on the pitching front) and Astros. They will either add or stand pat. And Detroit seems to be taking the position that what they have is who you go to war with (also betting on JD Martinez to spark the line-up upon returning from the DL)...and hoping for Norris and Boyd and Sanchez to figure things out (but also having to watch Fulmer's innings in Aug/September.)

Or, more likely, saddle themselves with yet another big veteran contract for a guy coming over from the AL in his early to mid 30's who wets the bed in 2017 and limits our options for improving the team/financial flexibility...forcing more rebuild talk going into 2018, and the same old arguments about how the White Sox would go from 25th in MLB in attendance to 28th-30th and potentially the attendance subsidies guaranteed by the State of Illinois clicking in (and all the public scrutiny that would draw, giving taxpayer money to a team worth a billion dollars while state pensions and school teachers can't be paid out).

http://mlb.mlb.com/kc/download/announcemen...oyals012406.pdf There's the Royals' lease agreement (revisited in 2006). http://www.810whb.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=1001 It wasn't good for the taxpayers, but isn't nearly as onerous as the USCF one in terms of parking revenue and the attendance guarantees...and a lot of the money was used for improvements in what is now one of the older stadiums in baseball (early 1970's).

Yes. We might have a slightly better record, but our positioning against TOR/BOS/HOU isn't as strong as it was against BALT/MIN last year at this time. We also had a seven game winning streak and were about the same number of games back in the wild card race last year at the end of July and stood pat. The only difference is that 23 7/9ths - 10 start where we were up 6/7/8 games on the rest of the AL Central (contending teams). Makes perfect sense Burdi, Morneau and Jackson would be our "acquisitions" since Burdi represents the return on not dealing Shark last year at this time.

1. TOR/BOS +11 3. HOU +7 2 GB 4. DET +3 4 GB 5. CHW/KCR +2 4 1/2 GB 7. SEA +1 5 GB 8. NYY E 5 1/2 GB Seven teams ahead of us, not TWO. You're not counting the divisional leaders like you did for last year's standings? In terms of their positioning vs. Boston, Toronto and Houston (THIS YEAR), those three teams are clearly MUCH better than LAA/Minnesota at the top this time last year. Toronto added Price/Tulo and the Rangers added Hamels and both those teams took off from the same relative position as the White Sox. We're a few games over .500 instead of a few games below .500, but there's a lot more to contend with at the top of the race. Plus, Boston and Houston are very well stocked financially and prospects-wise to make improvements via the trade market. Boston's already gone out and gotten Ziegler. Toronto is raking in the attendance, so they'll certain do something (their prospects are down because of all the trades) in terms of adding on veteran salary/expiring contracts. No choice when you have so much competition in the AL East and everybody wants to avoid a one shot and you're out elimination game. Wild Card Standings Last Five Days of July, 2015 JULY 27 LAA +12 MIN +6 3. TOR/Balt E 3 GB 5. TB -1 3 1/2 GB 6. CHW/TEX -4 5 GB 8. CLE -6 6 GB JULY 28 LAA +11 MIN +5 3. BAL +1 2 GB 4. TB E 2 1/2 GB 5. TOR -1 3 GB 6. CHW -3 4 GB 7. TEX -5 5 GB 8. CLE -7 6 GB JULY 29 LAA +10 MIN +4 3. BAL +2 1 GB 4. TOR E 2 GB 5. TB -1 2 1/2 GB 6. CHW -2 3 GB 7. TEX -4 4 GB 8. CLE -8 6 GB JULY 30th LAA +9 MIN +5 3. TOR/BAL +1 2 GB 5. CHW/TB -1 3 GB 7. TEX -3 4 GB 8. CLE -7 6 GB JULY 31st LAA +8 MIN +4 3. TOR/BAL +2 1 GB 5. CHW/TB/TEX -2 3 GB 8. CLE -6 5 GB

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 10, 2016 -> 08:35 AM) Neutral? Nice try. It wasn't because they resigned Peavy that they traded for Eaton. Peavy was long gone. Maybe they should have traded Q for Headley. He was the big 3B at the time. And if we really made a stretch and said it was neutral, why do you remember it now as "ill advised"? In one post ip you said they had no clear direction, now this one says they were showing a direction. LOL. Whatever you do, you should stop complaining about trading Semien. In that thread, you mentioned it was a trade that HAD to be made. The Tigers certainly know what the are doing. They are all in, the Sox at the kiddie table and it shows, a record an entire half a game better.you weren't done I. The Peavy thread. This didn't appear "neutral " It's one of those cases of selective memory with Peavy. A lot of our gripes were about his record against the Tigers, particularly the 6-0 blown game, some of his starts down the stretch where he was "so-so" or okay instead of pitching like an ace. Of course, the counter-argument is that he's no longer the 2007 version, has diminished stuff, has had to adapt and learn to be a pitcher rather than just a thrower...THAT previous Cy Young glimmering version will never return again, any more (and I see some are still holding out hope that he'll bounce back into the mid 90's with his FB again). Statistically, there's no arguing with his stats, as an overall body of work, from 2012. And there's no arguing that if he put up those same numbers the next two years, the White Sox would have made a very sound investment. And then there will always be those who appreciate his "manning up" and coming back from a first of its kind surgery as quickly as he did, instead of packing it in and collecting a paycheck. The whole team just ran out of gas (Sale, Peavy, Quintana, the rookies), we had the injuries to deal with constantly throughout the 2nd half...most of us were not as angry as Greg about the "collapse" as it was pretty predictable to those who follow both the Tigers and Sox closely. (That said, I believed we would actually take it after winning the final Tigers game and then again when Dunn hit the homer to win another one in the following days). Yes, they pretty much had to give up Semien because they'd already established they didn't trust him and weren't going to give him another chance at a starting job...and they certainly weren't going to let him play SS at the big league level. The same exact thing happened to Micah Johnson. Young player comes up and struggles over 50-150 at-bats. Organization cuts bait on him or "sells high" (Trayce Thompson, although he might be the only position player who outperformed expectations in the past decade). It's surprising Carlos Sanchez and Saladino are still around for this year, actually. As it was, they still weren't ready to give Saladino the starting job, hence bringing in Rollins for two months.

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/salary/closer/ Slightly behind Aroldis Chapman and Craig Kimbrel for 3rd highest paid closer in baseball at $11 million per year. Tied with Papelbon. Unless we're REALLY going to go for it this year, they should get a prospect/s back (say Baez or Almora, Jr.), invest $10 million in another hitter or starting pitcher and use Burdi/Fulmer/Hansen/Danish/Stephens behind Nate Jones in the bullpen. Then they can turn around and flip Nate Jones in the same way Billy Beane does it...or the White Sox attempted to do with Sergio Santos and Addison Reed. It would be shocking if the Cubs agreed to give up Schwarber OR Contreras for Robertson. Not even Robertson and Nate Jones would get them BOTH of those two. They'd offer Vogelbach and we'd counter with either 1) Baez, 2) Almora or 3) McKinney. Maybe Almora and Carl Edwards, Jr.