caulfield12

Cue the Biblical references if he actually does something to help the Bulls win a game...

Look at his stats. Sanchez has great stuff and has been a key cog in Toronto's starting rotation. It's also his first extended run as a starter after being converted from the bullpen. I mean...Johnny Cueto's on track to win the NL Cy Young and he got absolutely lit up....just like he did last year pitching in the AL, and specifically the AL Central. Same thing happened with Samardzija. Transport them to SF and magically they're playing on another World Series team if the Nationals/Cubs don't make it. Even numbered year, etc. QUINTANA in...no disrespect from Ned Yost card to play here.

When have you gone out and staked a position on a player? It's easy to question others when you so rarely do that. Ubaldo Jimenez? Gordon Beckham? John Danks? Do I really need to write that "everyone knows how the White Sox operate when it comes to young players, that it's clear they have given up on Marcus Semien as an everyday player and might as well get something of value back for him?" Once again, should every thread be bifurcated into 1) our own personal thoughts about a player or trade, 2) our anticipation of what the White Sox will actually do, 3) our own idea if we were running the White Sox, what they SHOULD or SHOULDN'T DO? Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts. In the end, I'll leave it up to "SoxTalk" land to make their own appraisals. None of us are being paid by the White Sox to make these decisions, anyway, so it doesn't really matter, does it? It's just for fun and entertainment. If you think about ALL the time you've wasted trying to convince everyone that I'm this or that...wouldn't your energies have better been applied to "growing the White Sox fanbase" in Chicago by sponsoring an RBI or Jackie Robinson League team so that all those kids ended up cheering for the Sox in the future? Are you really going to change the minds of Balta, Greg775, Flash Tizzle, Thad Bosley, GreenSox or ANYONE else? For the record, thanks in advance for your time and consideration in spending an inordinate amount of time delving into every single post someone has made!!! Flattering, in a way. Impressive diligence in your quest for righteousness. I'll leave it like this. The current and prevailing message board defense of almost any move made by the Sox was "that it made sense or was logical enough at the time." If JR wants to support that type of thinking and ignore the team's record or lack of playoff appearances, that's really great. LOYAL. If he wants to end up with 18-21,000 fans per game despite never doing a total rebuild, and STILL having the worst TV ratings in all of MLB despite starting the season 23-10, he's more than welcome to enjoy that, since his team will still be worth $1 billion or more anyway, no matter how badly they mess things up.

Balta- It is absolutely worth considering whether with his aggressive style of play and injury-risk, if Adam Eaton will continue to remain a TOP 5 MLB outfielder by OPS. Not to mention whether or not they will be able to find another CF (Colby Rasmus?) for 2017 so that they can keep Eaton in RF, where he's establishing his highest value due to defense and his arm, not to mention general comfort level out there at that position. He has a very favorable contract. But it's hard to imagine the White Sox getting "fair value" back for him, compared to what they would get from trading Sale or Quintana, not to mention the obvious point that the longer you hold onto young/dynamic starting pitching, the higher the risk for significant injury (as the Mets are currently learning w/ Harvey/Wheeler/Syndergaard, Rangers w/ Darvish, etc.) Rock/hard place.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 01:47 PM) Why do we have to trade THOSE guys. I prefer keeping those 3 and Anderson, Eaton and Abreu and Sale/Q and dumping the rest: Frazier, Robertson, Melky, Avila, Navarro, Duke, Avi, Lawrie will bring a NICE haul. Because 1) you're not going to get back what you paid in prospects for Frazier, 2) Robertson and Melky will get you another Avi Garcia and B prospect probably because their high salaries preclude mid-market teams from acquiring them unless you eat salary for prospects, which we rarely rarely do, 3) there's no market for Avila and Navarro 4) Duke and Lawrie will get you a B prospect back and 5) Avi Garcia has literally ZERO VALUE to any contending team right now, and could only be traded to an AL club at any rate. If you combined Frazier and Robertson in a package...some combination of Frazier/Robertson/Melky/Lawrie...for a large market team desperate to fill two or three of those holes in one fell swoop, that's where you can get some good talent back (and because the FA market next offseason will be abysmal.) We trade Cabrera, we end up signing Colby Rasmus for the exact same price or higher than we were paying Melky...and then probably have to replace him again in 2018 OR we take an even bigger risk and give someone like Rasmus a $60-75 million contract because we're forced to overpay in an absolutely brutal market.

15:$0.85M, 16:$2.75M, 17:$4M, 18:$6M, 19:$8.4M, 20:$9.5M club option ($1.5M buyout), 21:$10.5M club option ($1.5M buyout) Eaton's contract

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 05:36 PM) No. You said it was a trade that had to be made, and it wasn't clear the organization had given up on him. Nice spin. But a total lie. You just had a couple of mods in this very same sequence of posts say the organization had clearly given up on him. It's not just me. It's what the White Sox ALWAYS do. The same thing happened with Daniel Hudson after 3 starts. Micah Johnson got about 3 weeks. Carlos Sanchez got about half a season as well, despite being only 22 or 23. They give up on players too quickly or they play them 1-2 seasons too long when they can't believe they were so wrong in their talent evaluation (Beckham, Viciedo, Flowers, Avi Garcia). Somewhere in there is a middle ground that they can't seem to find, a sweet spot, where patience has to be met with results. Marcus Semien had 300 career at-bats with the White Sox. That's essentially half a season. And then they decided he wasn't going to make it. So what's the point of not trading him at that point? They weren't willing to play him everyday, even though that's exactly what rebuilding teams do. That's exactly what Billy Beane did (see below). http://m.mlb.com/news/article/188565220/as...lays-every-day/ But thanks for playing, Dick "Stalker" Allen

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:05 PM) We have a very forgiving fanbase. The Shark trade on paper is a disaster right now with Semien performing and Phegs serviceable. Didn't we give up a third piece as well? Shark was a monumental colossal disaster even if the trade may have "made sense." A lot of us don't like giving up our "name" prospects in deals. For example, if we were to trade Robertson and Frazier and Melky and Lawrie soon, I'd like to get back players just like Semien and Trayce plus more than that. Chris Bassitt, who pitched well for them last year, struggled this year and has since gotten hurt. Trayce Thompson, by the way, has 13 homers...not 11. I've also noticed in retroactively talking about Shark, some are calling him an "innings eater," (like James Shields), some are calling him an ace or #2 starter. Some a 3.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 04:05 PM) We have a very forgiving fanbase. The Shark trade on paper is a disaster right now with Semien performing and Phegs serviceable. Didn't we give up a third piece as well? Shark was a monumental colossal disaster even if the trade may have "made sense." A lot of us don't like giving up our "name" prospects in deals. For example, if we were to trade Robertson and Frazier and Melky and Lawrie soon, I'd like to get back players just like Semien and Trayce plus more than that. Chris Bassitt, who pitched well for them last year, struggled this year and has since gotten hurt. Trayce Thompson, by the way, has 13 homers...not 11.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 03:13 PM) This definitely goes both ways on this site. There are people who are always going to jump to trash someone we traded away and there are always going to be plenty of people who are automatically going to love the players we traded away. It's more the fact that we were rebuilding and everything was going along fine until the 2014-15 offseason approached. Then they got impatient and tried to rush forward, in the back of their minds certainly being aware they wouldn't have the financial resources to sustain an "all in" year unless EVERY MOVE THEY MADE TURNED OUT PERFECTLY. While we might not be much better off record-wise, an infield of Semien at 3B/2B, Anderson at SS, Thompson in CF, Montas still in the system (and Saladino as super-sub/Zobrist lite rotating around at different positions)...that would be a lot more exciting to watch and have potential for future improvement. Also, a lot more athleticism. Between Montas, Hansen, Fulmer, Adams and Jordan Stephens, we'd have enough pieces to fill the bullpen needs and back of the starting rotation. That team would also be much more affordable/cost-effective, providing payroll space for other fixes like the DH issue with Avi Garcia. And yeah, I did say they pretty much needed to trade Semien because it was clear the organization had already given up on him and he wasn't likely to get another shot...so why not try to turn him into an asset to fill another need? It's not like any of us here can go out and hire individual coaches and bring them to USCF and force them on the White Sox front office to fix their own development and lack of patience with young player issues...(of course, for some reason, they fixate on other guys like Beckham, Flowers and Viciedo and give them way too much time, with Avi Garcia being the most currently example of that phenomenon.)

2B/3B is where Moncada will go, likely 3B to start because Shaw is more expendable than Pedroia. They just traded for Ziegler, so they're not going to add another closer at the cost of Benitendi...especially when that closer is paid in the same territory salary-wise as Jonathan Papelbon. They'll be be fine when Kimbrel returns from surgery with Uehara, Tazawa, Ziegler and Kimbrel, plus some of their failed starters or prospects can be thrown into the mix if need be. Pre-Ziegler trade, it would actually have made some sense, but there's still no way we were getting Moncada back.

LHP Cuban pitcher. Click on link at Post #19.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 12:24 AM) Why do you keep comparing the cost to add a major league player to a major league roster to the cost of signing bonus for an international prospect? Those are different markets... As Mr. Richard Allen said, if the White Sox were drawing 35,000 per game (and the Cubs are higher than that) instead of 22,000 (25th in the majors), they'd be plugging $20-25 million extra per season into the international market like the Cubs have been doing... So that's why. Obviously when they do sign international players, they prefer for them to be major league ready (or as close to as possible): Takatsu Iguchi Alexei Ramirez Viciedo (19 but before it was broken into under 21 and over 21 categories) Abreu Compared to the likes of Micker Adolfo, for example. The White Sox have been hard-pressed to add more than 5-7 players at over that $1 million range over the last 3-5 years.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 12:16 AM) Just for fun.... Cubs major international signings ($1M+ bonuses) Luis Acosta - $1.1M - Out of baseball Mark Malave - $1.6M - Out of baseball Kyuji Fujikawa - $1.0M - Out of baseball Juan Paniagua - $1.5M - 26 years old and a nearly 6 BB/9 in AA. They have signed many more over $1M, but a lot of them are either too young to consider busts yet. But I saw like 20-25 players since 2011 they have signed for $1M+, and that includes a year that they got penalized to stay under $250K. When you are breaking the rules and loading up on the best INT'L talent, you are going to hit on a few of them. So far, they are. It's very simple...over time, you can track the collective major league WAR of those players and the compare it to the average $6-8 million cost per 1 unit of WAR for adding (mostly) 30+ veteran FA's. Which is the best way to build a team? Just like you can do the same thing for all the Sox FA WAR over the past 1 1/2 seasons for LaRoche/Melky/Robertson/Bonifacio/Beckham/Turner/Navarro/Latos/Avila/A.Jackson/Rollins/Gonzalez, etc. I would guess the Dodgers aren't getting a very good return on their investment. The Cubs, Red Sox and Rangers are doing much better. With JR, it's always been the major league team's record being 10X more important then developing lottery tickets.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03...uit-cubs-figure 5 years/$6 million....lots of hype!!! About the same as the Bonifacio and Beckham signings. Actually, even at that time, the perception was that it was an overpay and it was doubtful he would even make the majors...in the aftermath of all those signings like Soler and Puig, the market for all things Cuban quickly overinflated. Maybe it was worth it just for the resulting publicity, because that money for Boni and Beckham wasn't noticed by anyone but die-hard Sox fans on page 22D, buried in the sports section.

As long as he doesn't get hung out to try like Stanek at the end of the Futures Game, then even a period of failure/adjustment at the big league level SHOULD be helpful to his eventual development. Just not convinced that rushing Fulmer and Burdi into our bullpen isn't eventually going to come back to bite them. So far, they were right on Tim Anderson (except for the patience to accept walks)...but the results are far from conclusive on Carlos Rodon 14-15 months later in terms of his developing the secondary pitches he needed to at BIRM/CHAR to experience sustained success as a starter.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 06:30 PM) The sox did spend $68 million on unknown Jose Abreu. I mean I wanted Moncada when he was a FA but I can't get too pissed off because they did spend on Abreu. Unknown to American baseball fans. Not to the professional scouting community or anyone who follows Cuban baseball. He's not a flashy player, so he didn't get as much attention as Cespedes and Puig, but every scout in the world had him on their radar. (As we have mentioned 100 times, most of the big market players that offseason weren't looking to replace their 1B, I think the other two primary suitors were the Rockies and Astros.)

Great, Dick Allen has raised another $20-22 million in revenue to spend. Oops, it just went out the window. Even if we were averaging 35,000 rather than 21,000+, it wouldn't be enough to afford Yoenis Cespedes for this season. http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2006 36,511 per game http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensa...cago-white-sox/ White Sox raised the payroll by A WHOPPING $6 million dollars to reward all those fans from 2006, going into the 2007 season. Not to mention the ticket price increases going into 2006, borne by the fans of a World Series-winning team. There's no way to believe the White Sox are suddenly going to change 35 years of history. Most of their money gets plugged into the major league roster. Always has been this way, with just a few exceptions like Borchard and Vicedo, and those two were seen as relatively advanced prospects (compared to high schoolers). In all likelihood, we would have ended up with Alex Gordon...and not be any better off for it, except having another bad contract on their hands. I still don't see any reason to believe the White Sox were going to bid $30 million for Cespedes to play for them in 2016...it beggars belief. The one and only exception to that has been Albert Belle, and luckily they had the escape clauses in that deal or they would have been totally screwed. While I would like to believe they'd invest in the Yoan Moncadas, rather than the Tanakas (always coming in second or third) and Abreus, just don't see it happening.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/why-the-c...-013715997.html Why the Cubs Think They'll Be Okay Tim Brown, Yahoo Sports

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?g...ox&sid=milb Morneau was 1/3. Our old friend Moises Sierra playing in that AA game and hitting .343 as his career winds down.

Thompson also had a lot of game-winning hits during that hot streak. Should we take all of those wins of the board, too...because they happened in one "hot stretch"? Couldn't we do that with 80-90% of pitchers and hitters? Let's just put it this way. The Dodgers are confident enough in him, Pederson, Kendrick and eventually Ethier to trade Puig now.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos...false/minpa/250 Going by WAR, Thompson is 41st out of the 66 MLB outfielders with over 250 PA's at 0.8. Over a full season, roughly 1.5. By OPS, 47th. That still has a lot of value, for a first/second year player with a dirt cheap contract. It means he would be right around the middle of statistical comparison with "second outfielders" on most MLB teams...with many non-qualified players putting up lower numbers, the same as we talk about with pitchers all the time and how many with terrible stats don't show up because they don't record enough innings to qualify. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos...false/minpa/250 There are a ton of "big names" with large contracts on this list behind Thompson. And a lot of them play in better parks for offense than Dodgers' stadium, especially night games when the marine layer comes in (more impact in SD, but still affects LA, SF and Safeco). Marcus Semien has been around the 13th or 14th SS going by WAR/OPS on a consistent basis, nearly all season long...and those numbers would be even better playing 81 home games at USCF vs. O.Co. That also has a LOT of value.

Who was the last really refined collegiate hitter we took? Beckham and Jeremy Reed are the only names that come to mind. Borchard and Fields were more pieces of work in progress, toolsy/athletic getting by with natural athletic ability against lower levels of competition. Same thing with Brian Anderson.

New White Sox motto: Hey, At Least We Avoiding Paying Penalties for Bringing in Premium Talent Like The Cubs Kind of goes against the argument that they don't care about winning, and/or they still believe paying the penalties to be worth it compared to having to overpay for players like Lester or Heyward. And that's probably right, all things considered. Same with the way the Red Sox have been doing things ever since Epstein arrived. Exploit market inefficiencies...in this case, the fact that only about 8-10 teams in the major leagues can afford to employ this strategy and absorb the losses that it entails for the diamonds that are unearthed.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 05:28 PM) That was part of it. He was pissed off that Larry wouldn't trade any kids for players like Mike Scott who was mentioned as potentially going to the Sox and after the A's claimed both Baines and McGee at the waiver deadline when the Sox could have blocked the move by claiming them, he called jeff Torborg in his hotel room and asked "what's going on?" (Jeff told me that himself. Add in the trade that Himes nixed before the 1990 season opened (Yankess wanted to send Hal Morris and Bernie Williams to the Sox for Steve Lyons and Eric King) and his refusal to let Frank Thomas open the season with the big club plus the personality differences between the two men and a breakup was bound to happen, which it did in mid September. Mark Wow, never heard about that potential deal. Why is that we always seem to get the best of the Yankees in trades, but very few other teams?