caulfield12

Five years of being content with being "mediocre at best" is preferable? What is hilarious is that some are arguing that a major reason to NOT rebuild correctly is because the current front office in charge of "competing on the fly" isn't doing a very good job of that, so how could they possibly pull off a rebuild and NOT actually make things worse? Tons of logic there. Fear that things could get worse? Worse HOW? The fact of the matter is that many White Sox fans have given up complaining and have simply turned to other interests that provide them and their families a higher return on investment for their time and money. Because they know complaining is pointless and won't change anything. But they also don't expect things to turn around any time soon for this particular franchise, its owner, its admin/front office and coaching staff. They're just going to wait patiently in the weeds for a playoff team to come around, and then jump back on the bandwagon like happened in 2005 and 2006. No matter what...even if our attendance fell to #28-30 (which wouldn't take much at all), we'd simply roll down the payroll and still be profitable. JR wouldn't sell, the same stadium lease agreement would be in place at least until 2029. They'd still be worth a billion dollars as a franchise, because the riding tide of the NBA and 75% of MLB is going to pull them up regardless of how poorly they are managed.

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/189181302/fu...eads-world-win/ That play in RF by Jimenez was amazing...better than his two hits. If you didn't know who it was beforehand, you'd think it was the player Byron Buxton was PROJECTED to be by everyone. Margot was impressive as well....fouling off about 15 pitches, defensively, speed/tools, etc.

You also have to consider that the Rangers were one of the first teams to enjoy the boom in exploding regional network broadcast deals. Not bad, considering they went from near-bankruptcy due to Hicks' shenanigans around the globe. The Cardinals are a "decent example" because of their limited local market/tv deal, but they've had the best fan/attendance of any team in baseball over the last 20-30 years out of all the "mid/small" market teams. "Best fans in baseball," etc. Cardinals' Way/Cardinals' Nation. Of course, they earned that by being a consistently winning franchise over many generations of players. Right up there with the Yankees on the NL side.

Berman was TERRIBLE in 2005 back in that series against the Red Sox with his homerism. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/allsta...sed-how-fun-are Dave Schoenfield ranks the entire All-Star roster 1-64 based on "how fun they are"

Fwiw, KW was talking a LOT about OBP five years ago...and certainly in reaction to Moneyball, but it was just that, lots of talk. The irony is that the one "athletic/toolsy" guy who could actually take some walks (Thompson) was traded away. We drafted Mitchell (who actually wasn't too bad in this area, either) and Hawkins...and Tim Anderson's troubles with drawing walks are well-documented. Signed Viciedo, etc. So yeah, pretty strange we KNEW there was an OBVIOUS problem, yet it took 10+ years after trading for Thome (OBP machine) to finally do something about it. Finally, clear direction emerged...after all this time.

QUOTE (dasox24 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 04:03 PM) Co-sign. Couldn't have said it better myself. We said this after the 2014 season, when a lot of those free agent pick-ups wet the bed and the team got off to such a terrible start. Our system lost a number of players who could have made contributions at the major league level (Semien, Montas and Thompson being the best examples)...and we simply ran out of money to spend to complete the roster because too much money was being allocated to Danks, LaRoche, Cabrera and David Robertson. In order for your comment to be correct, Kenny Hahn would need to go out and spend $10-12 and perhaps $15 million in contracts for the remainder of this year and take on salary commitments (Bruce/Cargo, etc.) for next year as well (because of the lack of impact FA's, and the number of large market franchises competing for them)...as they did with James Shields, to cover up the lack of depth/productivity from the largely depleted minor league system. Otherwise, a "roll the dice" franchise-defining Q trade is all but inevitable. We've been saying this for a long time, and it has never been more apparent.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:55 PM) My guess would be very few, if any, have done it consistently over more than a period of say five years or more. With mid-markets, the payroll forces a break up, which it about impossible to recover from without the resources of a large market team. So while a team like the 90's Indians can come along once in a while, the shelf-life is limited. The other one I can think of the Braves playoff run. Other than that, probably no one has done this, no matter what stipulations you put on it. Let's cut it down to 3...anyone come to mind? In the "modern" era since around 2000? I think 4 years is absolutely pushing it these days in terms of a competitive window. You have to have a little luck and good health. The Twins are the team that comes into mind because they sustained that window from 2002 (2001 they really pushed the Indians) all the way through their pretty remarkable 2010 season. Tigers have 2006-2014...and their free-spending owner (which disqualifies them, even though they received comp picks for being "mid market" in name only, like St. Louis). So we can cross them out. The Royals, but they went through a prolonged rebuilding period, and they couldn't sustain injuries to Cain, Davis, Moustakas and Gordon (at least seemingly). The Indians have gone through two massive rebuilds (post 2001 and post 2007) in the last 15 years. They aren't even "mid market" anymore, they're the BOTTOM of the market, but they made the playoffs in 2013 and look to be well set up for a 2-3 or even 4 year run at present. Of course, for Cleveland to go from 2007 to 2013...well, there was a lot of fan "duress" along the way, for a franchise that set the record for consecutive sellouts in Jacobs Field during the heart of their 1995-2001 run of success.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:37 PM) The big problem is that their TV contract is up in 2019. Are you willing to risk a rebuild being at a place in 3 years, well two really because 2016 is pretty much a sunk cost, to where their is fan interest enough for getting them the best possible TV deal? Two years from now is probably going to be the bottom point of the rebuild. Are you willing to risk an injury to Sale/Q/Rodon that would wipe out any chance of turning ONE of those three pitchers into assets like Moncada, Benitendi, Profar/Gallo/Brinson, etc.??? Then they WOULD be forced to pretty much rebuild anyway...but not on their conditions or control, but selling off pieces under duress like the Padres are doing now. This is where JR needs to decide if he's REALLY all-in this season or they have to look at trading one of Sale/Q in order to get 2-3 potential impact hitters/position players. We ABSOLUTELY know it's not going to happen through free agency (2016-17 free agent class)...and the odds of "winning" trades for guys like Frazier, Robertson and Cabrera (where the acquiring team is taking on salary and giving up lesser prospects), that's not a winning strategy either for most GM's. The only solution is to be 100% RIGHT for the first time in a while and bring in one more big bat (and relying on that bat to be Justin Morneau is something only Sox diehards can do, where hope springs eternal) and take on that contract through 2017. The James Shields move has almost forced it in this direction already.

Or, to put it another way, which mid-market teams (payroll #12-18) have successfully risen up to become consistent playoff contenders without building primarily through the draft and Latin America? That have experienced sustained success by buying second and third tier free agents so astutely (success rate of 60-80%), as well as "winning" 60% or more of their trades...and that weren't willing to go through a prolonged period of rebuilding/Top 10 draft picks, etc.???

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:14 PM) I wouldn't call the second half of 2013-14 a rebuild. That time period is too truncated for an actual rebuild. Not only that, they didn't really focus on long term prospect development. They brought in guys who can contribute to the MLB roster immediately, with exception of a few pitchers and Matt Davidson-- who they intended on bringing up right away, but he just could not hit the ball. If they maintained the course of direction heading into 2015 and traded Alexei Ramirez when his value was at its peak, while maintaining the 2nd and 3rd round draft picks for 2015--I'd say OVERALL, the organization would be in a much better shape. The fact of the matter is, they went for it in 2015 and failed and the farm system once again took a back seat, which we are very much noticing this year with the lack of position player depth to help alleviate positional player injuries. Since this is year 2 of KW's phantom 3 year window, I really do not foresee them trading away veterans for an influx of youth. However, doing so may actually accelerate the rebuild that could have been if they stayed on that 2013-14 course of action. For instance, lets say they keep: Sale, Rodon, Eaton, Anderson and Abreu but decided to trade off veterans like: Quintana, Robertson, Melky and Frazier-- hello youth influx! A Quintana trade alone can bring in multiple position players with high level talent. We are talking a team's #1 prospect AND their #6-10 prospect. Robertson, Melky and Frazier would be very attractive pieces to a contending team and can also bring in some team's top 10 prospects as well. Selling high on players is something KW or Hahn rarely does. It something that can rock the foundation of an organization-- perhaps it is something this stale playoff-less organization needs to consider this deadline. It is either that OR another year watching October baseball from their couches coming up with new ways to 'retool' the same roster for 2017. (sigh) See Humber, Crain, Floyd, Crede, Jenks, Alexei, etc. (hold on too long, not selling) We can't also say "stay the course" without seriously considering how fragile the whole thing is...we haven't built up pitching depth like the Mets or Indians that we could have Sale OR Q or even Rodon go down to a significant injury without completely junking the WHOLE plan for 1 to 1 1/2 years (if not longer if they didn't recover from surgery as well as expected, or had a shoulder/labrum injury like Danks). If you look at 2004-05 cycle, we brought in Garcia/Contreras (who turned out to be Two Top 25-35 pitchers in the league during that time before injuries), an effective closer for half a season in Hermanson (not to mention Takatsu to hold down the fort), a quality complementary piece in Iguchi, two key cogs in both Dye and AJ (Dye due to injury, AJ due to rep hit he took in SF), Bobby Jenks via waiver claim...the season before that, Carl Everett, etc. Then, Pods and Vizcaino. So, 1) we don't have the talent in our minor league system to bring in the equivalent of another Garcia trade without trading away significant major league talent, and 2) we haven't brought that much collective talent onto the major league roster since Floyd/Danks/Alexei/Quentin/Beckham/Viciedo in the 2007/08 cycle. Look at that list again though....a #1 and #2 starting pitcher, three closers, four LEGIT starting position players close to their primes, and even spare parts like El Duque and Vizcaino. Not to mention "off the radar" moves like Cliff Politte breaking their way, and Cotts becoming a dominant reliever for a season. Could any GM in history replicate that rebuilding on the fly approach today, with the talent and resources the White Sox currently have? It screams fluke/anomaly/luck, especially AJ and Dye both being available as they were (for diff reasons), as well as Jenks and then Contreras almost miraculously becoming the best pitcher in baseball for four plus months. Instead, in the recent years, we've gotten almost all busts in free agency (where we've been overpaying to boot), mostly bad trades or talent identification (Flowers, Davidson, Avi, Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart, etc.), lots of poor drafts (other than Sale)....journeymen AAA guys or waiver claims like DeAza (who was "pretty good" for a couple of years) and more recently Gillaspie that produce over stretches but aren't suited to full-time play....and then all the dumpster diving over the last 3-4 years due to limited budgets. We've almost completely missed out in Latin America (see Cubs/Rangers/Indians' rosters) and we haven't done much work in Japan/Korea at all (see recent influx of Korean players). All that adds up to being a "better mediocre team" but still stuck in the middle.

It's nice to know they're not intent on rushing Collins like it appears they're read to do with some of the pitchers (as relievers). The main problem is that 2017 is setting up as their final "all in" year...and the market for catching is looking pretty bleak for the moment, so we're back to "band aid/dumpster diving" solutions again. Nothing we can do about it, but it would be awesome to have him for the second half of 2017...and maybe that still happens. It would be like pulling off a trade, just like injecting Tim Anderson into the line-up has been this year. Looking at the future, you have a core of Anderson, Abreu, Eaton and Collins. But that still leaves five potential holes for 2018 in LF, CF, 3B, 2B (that's easier to imagine Saladino/Sanchez filling) and DH. I also don't realistically think Saladino can play 3rd, Sanchez 2B and still have enough power (been there, done that)...but somehow we need to come up with at least two more power bats (corner outfield/DH/another infielder at either 2B/3B with pop). Hard to project Engel/Trey/May as future starters right now. At any rate, getting a 750-800 OPS out of Collins will help a lot. And maybe, JUST MAYBE, Hahn finds one big bat in July/August this year...but this has to be the biggest concern for Sox fans when they look at 2017, 2018 and on into the future. Doesn't even have to be LH power (shout out to Lillian), but just any legit power/OBP combo.

They're not going to trade Betts and Moncada for Q. That's CRAZY talk.

If the asking price is Moncada, the Red Sox are going to fall back to their secondary packages that start with Benitendi...let's say, someone like Rich Hill (who was Boston property not so long ago) or Sonny Gray. With Gray's ERA still hovering above 5, Beane would be better off holding onto him unless he's totally bowled over with an offer. Everything not nailed down in the starting rotation for Tampa Bay (meaning all the starters other than Archer) are on the market as well. The Padres might choose to build around Drew Pomeranz or leverage him for a huge return this year, assuming he won't continue to overperform like this. Likewise, anyone you want in the Twins' rotation is available for the right price as well...Santana being the most attractive target. Teheran and Vizcaino from the Braves. Thankfully there are other suitors for Q, such as the Rangers and Dodgers that have the pieces to possibly make some sense. Or the Cubs, although that's a one in a million likelihood of happening.

The Indians are 3-6 in their last 9. Not sure if that exactly constitutes a free fall. Brantley's starting his minor league rehab assignment within the next 24-48 hours.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...y.html#comments Story on Moncada and Benitendi....who, if he were on the Sox, would turn into Jeremy Reed

http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/7/10/1214...ors-yasiel-puig Dodgers open to trading Puig, but must receive MLB pieces back in return http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2016/7/8/12132...hner-de-la-rosa Looking at this article, you'd think the White Sox actually have MORE motivation to make a move at the deadline, because they have two aces lined up for the post-season in Sale/Q...and both teams pretty much have to make the decision to begin rebuilding or go all-in at the All-Star Break in 2017. How desperate are both owners to get to the post-season??

But it's almost impossible to separate the two because development (let's just say, skill refinement) often happens at the major league level...around top flight coaches like Don Cooper or Joe Maddon. Instead of saying who HAS developed and should take credit for it, try the opposite (WHO HASN'T): Soler, that's a hard one to decide, because the major league results are inconclusive so far due to injuries. Let's say call him a disappointment so far, but no better or worse than, let's say, Dayan Viciedo or Avi Garcia. One thing that has become pretty true across the board is almost all Cuban hitters (other than Cespedes) are having trouble adjusting back to pitching adjustments made to them (see Abreu and Puig, Rusney Castillo, etc.) Every hitter, though, is unique. You can't say the Red Sox are GREAT at developing talent simply because Moncada becomes a star...as everyone saw that coming, right? Almora, based on draft position...perhaps, but jury's still out again. Contreras....looks pretty good so far. Schwarber...not much development they had to do. But they picked him MUCH higher than almost anyone in baseball had him on their boards. If you want to argue AGAINST the Cubs being good at developing talent, the argument's centered around Soler, Almora and Javier Baez, although Baez certainly has been an overall positive (despite the occasional defensive misplay, which comes from being moved all around and never getting comfortable with one position, see Semien, Marcus.) Vogelbach gets mentioned a lot, and he's become a solid prospect in their system even though he has been doubted at every turn...of course, the obvious problem is there's nowhere for him to play. Addison Russell, can you blame their minor league system when he was barely in it...and no, making the All-Star team doesn't mean they've succeeded, but clearly he can play very good defense and if his bat comes around at all, he's going to be a consistent 3-4 WAR provider. Concepcion was doubted by everyone in baseball when they "overpaid" for him, and he made it to the big leagues. Jimenez and Torres have developed from raw/toolsy athletes into consensus Top 20-30 MILB prospects, if not higher. Edwards has looked REALLY good out of the bullpen so far, and has impressive stuff...he's already moved up to the Nate Jones 8th inning role for Maddon. At worst, you can say they made some mistakes with Soler and Almora (and that's not even for sure, just has taken LONGER to develop than previously projected) and Baez still has the contact issues, but it's almost impossible to make an assessment at this exact moment in time unless we look at all these prospects from the perspective of 2021 looking backwards. Finally, how do they not get credit for Kyle Hendricks?

Then you can add Torres and Jimenez (so far)...Almora has spent a ton of time in their system, although he hasn't proven anything yet. If you're the Cubs, the only thing that matters is having multiple streams of talent to feed the system, which they do via trades, under/over 21 Latin American signings/international free agents and drafting. Now, all that SAID, if Arrieta breaks down at some point in July or August, they're going to be completely screwed because Lester and Lackey might not be good enough (at least as they are now) to be the linchpins of a playoff rotation. A month ago, as a Cubs' fan, you would have said, "we got this!" because they looked THAT good, with the caveat it was mostly against inferior competition. Let's keep reminding ourselves....2006 Chicago White Sox, 26 games over .500 at the All-Star Break. Now I highly doubt the Pirates and Cards are going to go all Twins/Tigers from that year, but stranger things have happened if you removed their #1 starter from the equation.

Has someone sent the memo to Ventura? The problem is that as abysmal as he has been in non-save situations, who does he have that he can trust outside of Jones/Duke and possibly Jennings right now (with a 4 run lead)?

I would go with Q, Sale, Eaton and Anderson...Frazier's hard to argue for, because of his batting average and "decent" OPS.

DEVELOPMENT ISN'T THE KEY. IT'S IDENTIFYING TALENT...especially if it's undervalued. SEE Quentin, Floyd, Danks, Alexei, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Nate Jones, Addison Reed, Hector Santiago, Sergio Santos, etc. The problem is we haven't been very good at it, by and large, since the 2008 playoff team...and going on 7-8 years now.

Haha...that's a good way to put it. Better mediocre team. Brooks Boyer, get right on that one for the second half...will rank right up there with the busted THE WILL TO WIN campaign that never even got off the ground because of team play. And really, a lot of that's due to Frazier, Cabrera and now Tim Anderson...and Eaton's overall game improving.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/year/2015/sort/saves Since we're playing the SV/SVO card, how does that excuse 2015? You have to go all the way down to Fernando Rodney at #31 in total saves to find ANYONE in the top 30 with SEVEN blown saves. Robertson is all alone right there in that category. You can blame the Sox defense all you want, but he hasn't been one of the Top 5 or even Top 10 closers in all of baseball since we signed him. By salary we should be getting ELITE.

Morneau didn't play at Charlotte or for BIRM. What happened? Thought he was going to get one final day of AB's on Sunday? Sent him home to spend time with his family one day early...before Friday's action started back up?

The Cubs can get away with trading Baez, Edwards, Jr., Almora, Jr. or McKinney and still not really impact their future core. Soler busting isn't really going to end up having much of an impact with the resources they're playing around with there. (And that's not even considering Schwarber as well and what they do with him.) I'm not sure you could get Jimenez and Torres if you offered our entire system (pre 2016 draft). Even then, not sure. Vogelbach would be our #4-6 prospect and can't even sniff the Top 10 over there. (And, let's be honest, EVERYONE in the entire world knew a 99-100 MPH fastball was coming there...but that bat speed anticipating it was still quite impressive.)