caulfield12

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:07 PM) The 1B is what Forbes projected the team was worth. The cubs sold for around that number. i don't think the Sox would get that. Values have increased exponentially since even then. You have the 2019 media/broadcast rights bonanza, possibly. You have a number of attractive assets (Sale/Eaton/Quintana/Rodon/Fulmer/Collins/Anderson) in the organization...an owner willing to spend $150 million per year could easily make that workable in the AL Central...and that sweetheart stadium lease agreement until 2029 or whatever year. But you can't supplement the core adequately enough to be a playoff team. At a payroll of $120-130 million, they're always going to be a couple of players short unless they stop making bad mistakes in the free agent or trade (Shields) market. At one point in the last decade (after 2005/06 period), the White Sox were the 8th most valuable franchise. I can't remember where we are now, somewhere between 14-18...right in the middle of franchise valuations.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 16, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) The Yanks are in a tough position to make that happen with no apparent place for either to play. If they do sign as a pair, I think the Dodgers would be the favorite with holes in LF and at 3B. Have they given up on Turner? Really? The Dodgers still have Thompson, Kiki Hernandez, Van Slyke, Ethier, Pederson and Puig. I'm pretty sure despite the "loss" of Carl Crawford they can cover that position adequately. Doesn't mean they won't sign them. But I don't think the likes of Chase Headley or Brett Gardner/Teixeira/Beltran/A-Rod will stop the Yankees from making a move, either.

The last big signing, Adolfo...has kind of faded away from view. We don't even hear about him being considered for the Top 10 list anymore. Yes, it's a "lottery ticket" mechanism, and you hope that maybe 1 out of 20/25 turn into MLB All-Stars. Not sure if the ROI is there, not for small and middle market teams (unless their scouting is just top notch and their miss rate is lower).

It would be a bit funnier if Shields himself just stuck that tee and ball out there and skipped his side session....hiding in the tunnel while the media took pictures. You almost have to have a sense of humor about it at this point, it's so historically horrific. It's making Dunn's 2011, LaRoche's 2015 and Frazier's recent slide look not so bad in comparison.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:05 PM) I didn't realize that pushing everyone to get off the "KW is the cause of all evil" for the White sox would turn to "Hahn is the cause of all evil." I guess people still don't get that they work TOGETHER. Everyone is exhausted talking about Ventura...and this whole Shields debacle (so far) has almost forced everyone to start looking up higher on the food chain. JR is the only one who knows who was the biggest advocate and pushed the hardest for Shields. Maybe KW, maybe Hahn...I doubt it was 50/50 an equal presentation from both execs when they made that pitch to JR.

They had a good shot at a fairly open goal the very last 30 seconds as well. Spain just doesn't have enough offensive playmakers/finishers anymore, compared with 6 years ago.

Sure, you can put it there if you'd like...however, I believe this is a more detailed/different perspective that doesn't touch upon anything being mentioned in that particular thread in more than a general or generic way.

I was just thinking about why Hahn gets SO MUCH credit for the Eaton, Sale, Q and Abreu (this isn't as good, starting next year) contracts. Why do we have the assumption that nobody else could have done the same? That you have to have a law or business degree to pull it off? Then I thought about the Indians and looked at their payroll. Still well under $100 million, despite the Swisher/Bourn/C.Johnson debacles. Carlos Santana 5 years/$21 million 2017 option Michael Brantley 4 years/$25 million 2018 option Jason Kipnis 6 years/$52.5 million 2020 option Corey Kluber 5 years/$38.5 million 2020/21 options Carlos Carrasco 4 years/$22 million 2019/20 options Yan Gomes 6 years/$23 million 2020/21 options Josh Tomlin 2 years/$5.5 million 2018 option That's not even considering future extensions for Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Salazar (top five pitcher in the AL now) and possibly Trevor Bauer, if he's not traded. That's what is called a young core, and all locked up under favorable contract conditions. You can quibble about Brantley's injury history, and Gomes also hasn't gotten back to his 2014 form, but WOW. It's actually kind of depressing...just when we thought the Royals were leaving the scene, you have the Indians now (last year at this time, it was the Twins with Buxton/Sano/Berrios on the way, things can and certainly do change in baseball, Sox fans know that all too well in 2016.) At any rate, I think this idea of Hahn pulling off "miracle extensions" is a bit ridiculous. These deals have been in place since the mid 90's Cleveland Indians teams. Other small market teams like the Rays/Twins/A's have followed suit, as the only way to survive and keep their core intact an additional year or two. Finally, there's one last point. I don't have the statistical evidence in front of me, but I think there's a niche to be found signing young Latin American talent (outside of the draft) and then giving them early extensions...because it's more money than anyone in their village has ever seen in ten lifetimes. American-born players might be likely to turn these moves down (see Rodon/Boras) because they're 100% certain they will make even more in the future. You can certainly see this motivation with Jose Quintana and his comments upon signing his extension. Alexei Ramirez, his original deal was one of the great bargain basement signings in Sox history. KW signed it. Or Salvador Perez, five years and $7 million for the second best catcher in baseball after Posey. A contract so "one-sided/unfair," the Royals ripped it up and gave him a new extension before they even had to. If this is actually the ONE area where Rick Hahn is good/great at, and nothing else...then I don't see why every other GM in baseball isn't capable of accomplishing the same thing??? I'd argue if he was the "best in the art of making the deal" (Trumpism), he'd be able to get Carlos Rodon/Boras to sign an extension. Does anyone believe he's capable of doing that? I don't think so! Finally, NONE of his free agents signings have turned out to create "surplus value," not by a long shot.

Especially when you bring in a college coach (the equivalent of not earning your stripes in the NBA). While you can't exactly compare Ventura and Hoiberg (playing experience, but still much different recruiting talented JC and disenchanted transfer players into Ames), the Bulls' players certainly could identify the difference between Thibs and Hoiberg. When you obviously go the wrong direction (less talented) in coaching because of an internal power struggle, eventually the execs in charge are going to have targets painted on their backs...because the fans only care about results or the bottom line. While Brad Stevens has worked out wonderfully, and Donovan did pretty well this year....there are multiple examples of failed transitions from the college game littered across NBA history of the past 30 years or so.

That's why it's impossible to compare Epstein with the Red Sox/Cubs vs. let's say, Terry Ryan of the Twins OR Friedman with the Rays vs. the Dodgers today. They have the financial leeway to take risks that they would never dream of taking on for budget-conscious teams. Look at Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez, Porcello (much better this year) and Rusney Castillo for just four recent examples of moves that a White Sox GM could/would never make. Moncada, same thing. Same reason why judging Brian Cashman has always been equally difficult. Would Dave Dombrowski be able to win with a "small market" team today? At least you have his time with the Marlins to assess that, although the evidence is contradictory. Do we give GM's more credit for getting maximum return on resources available/ROI or simply does getting to the playoffs or winning the World Series trump all? Brian Sabean always was a "middle tier"-rated GM, but how can he NOT be ranked as one of the 5-7 best now with the Giants' track record in the post-season?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/base...rticle21984335/ I should have replayed the SSS podcast because it wasn't clear the way it was explained. At any rate, as Beeston's close friend, JR blocked KW going because it would have undermined Beeston or pushed him out of day-to-day franchise operations....although it seems like he had an opportunity to quickly go to Boston or could join the White Sox at any time (loyalty, lifelong friend of JR, etc.) Why we would want to bring someone more known for the 1992-93 Jays' teams and less associated with the modern running of a franchise....is pretty much the same reason KW gave for hiring Ozzie over the much more experienced and 2X World Series-winning Cito Gaston. Just what we need....more cooks in the kitchen, more valuable resources not allocated into coaching/development/talent evaluation.

Shields gets rocked again Thursday. More fingers point to Rick Hahn and away from Ventura as the patsy/scapegoat.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 08:52 AM) I think Nick Hostetler is a prime counter argument to you. Hahn is building up his staff, remember how loyal this org is, it'll take time to get his people in. Yes, and Marco Paddy. On the other hand, Buddy Bell sucks at his job, was a terrible big league manager and personally vouched for Mark Teahen. What do we do for all this success, we give him a promotion. Other than blind loyalty, I can't see what he has done well or effectively, at all. KW loses his magic touch, is failing as a GM, we make him an executive VP. Then we block him from going to Toronto because JR has a "Thibs" moment when he finds out that his friend Paul Beeston is secretly trying to bring KW on board. Ironically, Beeston is now one of the execs being mentioned (by Margalus, at least) as a possible KW/Hahn successor. AA is the GM we should target, not Beeston as another "exec" who simply isn't prepared for modern baseball analysis and the quant movement...he's a dinosaur, outdated. Laumann isn't successful at drafting with a few notable exceptions like Chris Sale, we keep him on in the organization regardless. How has keeping three "failed" execs around been positive for the franchise in any way, shape or form? They just muddy the waters and make it harder for their successes to do their job effectively when everyone's competing for JR's ear.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 07:10 AM) All these people graduated from the Kellogg School of Management, just like Rick Hahn: RELEVANT!!!! Professional Services[edit] James L. Allen, Founder of Booz Allen Hamilton consultancy, and namesake of the Kellogg School's executive education center. Arthur E. Andersen, Founder of Arthur Andersen. Edwin G. Booz, Founder of Booz Allen Hamilton consultancy. Financial Services[edit] Joseph E. Hasten - President & CEO, ShoreBank; former Vice Chairman, U.S. Bancorp Suzanne Iroche, CEO of FinBank[1] Gary Parr, Deputy Chairman of Lazard William A. Osborn, Chairman and former CEO of Northern Trust Corporation Patrick Ryan, Founder and Executive Chairman of Aon Corporation Thomas J. Wilson, President and CEO of Allstate Insurance Company Consumer goods[edit] Douglas R. Conant, President and CEO of Campbell Soup Company Betsy Holden, Former CEO of Kraft Foods Tony Vernon, CEO of Kraft Foods Group Retail[edit] Brad Blum, CEO Emeritus of Burger King Steve Odland, Chairman and CEO of Office Depot Gregg Steinhafel, President, CEO, Chairman of the Board, Target Corporation Media, Sports and Entertainment[edit] Mallika Chopra, author, President of Intent Cynthia Frelund, ESPN Analyst [2] Eddie George, professional football player, Heisman Trophy winner Industry[edit] Kushagra Bajaj, Vice Chairman, Bajaj Hindusthan Andrew Fastow, former CFO, Enron Scott J. Freidheim, President and CEO of CDI Corporation Christopher G. Kennedy, Chairman, Joseph P. Kennedy Enterprises David Kohler, President and CEO, Kohler Company Chris Kubasik, former President and COO Lockheed Martin Ellen J. Kullman, Chair and CEO, DuPont Ivan Menezes, CEO of Diageo Roshni Nadar, Executive Director and CEO, HCL Corporation Government[edit] Ali Babacan, Minister of State for the Economy, 2002-2007, Minister of Foreign Affairs, 2007-2009, Deputy Prime Minister for Financial and Economic Affairs, 2009-present Republic of Turkey[3] Charlie Baker, Governor of Massachusetts, 2015-present Esteban Bullrich, Argentine National Deputy for Frente PRO, 2005-2009. 2010 to present, Minister of Education, City of Buenos Aires John Cebrowski, member of the New Hampshire House of Representatives[4] Alexander De Croo, Belgian Deputy Prime Minister of Belgium and Minister of Pensions Robert Dold, member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Illinois, 2011-2013; 2015-present Jonathan Greenblatt, Special Assistant to the President and Director of the Office of Social Innovation and Civic Participation in the Domestic Policy Council for the Obama Administration, 2011 to present. John Hoeven, Governor of North Dakota, 2000-2010; Senator, 2011 to present, United States Randy Hopper Wisconsin State Senator, 2009-2011 Somkid Jatusripitak (PhD Marketing, 1984), Deputy Prime Minister of Thailand, 2015 to present; former Minister of Finance and Minister of Commerce of Thailand, 2001-2006 Suvit Maesincee, Vice Minister for the Prime Minister and Adviser to the Minister of Finance of Thailand, 2015 to present Susan Pamerleau, retired United States Air Force major general and the Republican sheriff of Bexar County, Texas, first woman elected to that office, 2012[5] Cesar Purisima, Secretary of Trade & Industry, Republic of the Philippines, 2004-2005; Secretary of Finance, Republic of the Philippines, 2010 to present.[6] Uttama Savanayana, Minister of Information and Communication Technology of Thailand, 2015 to present There is a conection. None are more famous than Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa or Joe Torre...therefore, Northwestern sucks. But you've hit upon a great idea. If the Browns could hire DePodesta, we should hire Eddie George and bring KW's football mentality/Chicago "toughness" back to the Southside. P.S. I'm now going to play with my 16 month old son and his grandparents and then watch Silicon Valley for approximately 30 minutes. It's 915 pm China time, so the fact that I have no compelling desire to argue this any longer doesn't mean I am avoiding you, but rather that I will go to bed and then turn on the Sox game in approximately 10 hours, at 7 am China time.

STILL WAITING FOR AN ACTUAL DEFENSE OF RICK HAHN...which won't be forthcoming.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 07:05 AM) I don't think spending a spring on the bench of a HS baseball team is the difference between being a good GM and a bad one. I have yet to see one successful GM, although maybe you can provide a link, that pointed to his HS varsity letter as the catalyst in his success. BTW, the guy you never knew existed when you claimed the Sox didn't use sabermetrics, Dan Fabian, who you now say is one guy who shouldn't get fired, and maybe should get a crack at the GM job..............doesn't have a varsity letter. We don't know exactly how much they rely upon it. With the Pirates, it's very obvious. Jonah Keri wrote a book detailing the sea change. So how can I advocate for his firing when I don't even know how much say he or Jeremy Haber have in the organization, versus, let's say, Buddy Bell or KW or Laumann. I also never said Fabian should get the GM job, lol...where did you make that inference from? Just because I said they MIGHT be spared so there is some continuity going forward doesn't mean he should be a GM, or is qualified. And I questioned Haber because he seemed to be Hahn's advocate/progeny within the organization. Hahn is supposedly mentoring him, or has taken him under his wing.

Drake LaRoche=the next Curry/Thompson Or Nobel Prize Winner for Science/Math due to home schooling philosophy. You choose the likelier eventuality.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:52 AM) You were pooh poohed because you made the claim that a HS Varsity letter was a requirement to be a GM in baseball. Laughable. Explain then, with this high and mighty education of his...why he has been so terrible. I assume you haven't read Larry's SSS article or refuse to acknowledge it. Write the rebuttal or counter. You're good at doing that for Don Cooper and Robin Ventura, staking out devil's advocate positions against the majority opinion. Tell us why Rick Hahn is so good at his job and what he has done to deserve retaining his position any longer. Since you don't believe he's being held back by KW, that they are basically one and the same philosophically...how can you justify keeping them, since they are the reason the talent level on the White Sox and especially in their minor league system is so poor. You say we can't fire Ventura because the players aren't good enough, so then who is responsible for that? Are you going to blame it all on JR's budgetary constraints? Then how can teams like the Rays, A's, Pirates, Astros, Twins, Royals, Indians, etc., manage to do a lot more with LESS MONEY? Let's hear it, without blaming the fans or JR. Why should Hahn keep his job?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:51 AM) If you are questions his athletic background, why would you compare him to a guy who played at the highest level of college hoops? I SAID EDUCATIONALLY... What does that have to do with playing basketball or baseball?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:49 AM) Where do you get your information? He was at the forefront of paying minor league coaches, and has been instrumental in getting scouts more highly paid. You really have no idea what you are talking about. What has been the draft budget for the White Sox for the past 30 years? It's either LOWEST, 2nd lowest or 3rd from the bottom depending on which research article you go by. The manager for the White Sox has always been among the lowest paid in the majors, that still hasn't changed. I guess he skipped sending the checks to those having anything to do with hitting/defense/position player development. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Hasler and JR Perdew and Britt Burns and the minor league pitching instructors getting paid more than their peers, because Don Cooper is one of the highest paid pitching coaches in the majors and his minor league staff is also known for being excellent in this regard of preparation/instruction/development. If our scouts were so highly paid, then why they have been so terrible at their jobs for the last decade? And when I read about scouting departments, almost every team in the majors has a more extensive network than ours, particularly in Latin America. There's no way we haven't been in the bottom 25-30% over the last twenty years in TOTAL DOLLARS SPENT ON SCOUTING, both advanced scouting, amateur/collegiate and Latin American scouting.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:40 AM) That would be a great comparison if Rick Hahn was a three-year starter at a blue-blood college baseball program and then was an assistant coach for that team while he completed his law degree. Otherwise, Rick Hahn has a somewhat similar educational background to Johnnie Cochran and Marcia Clark. Does Hahn have an alibi for the night Nicole Brown was murdered? Do I sense a new 30 for 30, "Rick Hahn: Made in America?" He graduated from Duke in 1989 with a double major in philosophy and political science, and, later received a JD from Duke Law School in 1995 and an MBA from the Duke Fuqua School of Business in 1995.[7] Sounds like nothing in common with Hahn EDUCATIONALLY. Northwestern and Duke are comparable. HLS is a step up from Duke, obviously. But still similar backgrounds. I was pooh-poohed for questioning Hahn's playing career/athletic background...as if it wasn't important in the least in terms of being a good MLB GM, but I think a lot of people are starting to question what exactly it is that Hahn can do well.

QUOTE (FT35 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:36 AM) You can see the logic behind most of what he does...but the team is far from benefiting from anything he does. It's the logic that JR is looking for to keep him in his position. Now, I don't like bringing in washed up vets to take playing time away from younger players, but Hahn did that in positions of need (SS, till Timmy was ready), starting rotation (because none of our prospects have exactly taken their MLB opportunities by storm quite yet and Fulmer isn't ready), and DH (because chances are you're not going to put a top prospect in the DH role unless they trade for Kyle Schwarber!) So far Hahn has fallen in love with the MLB roster band aid fix. He's throwing money at the positions of need. I get it...but I think he would be well served by CUTTING the MLB roster payroll and dumping a good chunk of those dollars into his scouting and MiLB talent/player development personnel. Think how far 25 million would go in assembling a team of some of the best scouts, talent evaluators, player development coaches etc. Think about it...we've got 27M being invested in a James Shields project right now where the payoff is he rediscovers his form and wins 9 games for us from here on out. How many wins could we generate over the years by beefing up other areas of our organization besides our MLB roster? It's fun playing GM. haha JR has always firmly disagreed with this type of philosophy, believing for the most part that almost all revenues should be plugged back into the major league payroll (compared to higher salaries for managers/coaching staff/development/scouting). The only areas where he apparently is willing to spend above an average amount are 1) Don Cooper, 2) Hahn's assistant GM salary and 3), Herm Schneider.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:06 AM) Your idea was to have them sign Desmond like a week ago like no teams would have gotten desperate to sign him between when he signed and now. Because I knew Hahn would never do it...unless it didn't cost him a draft pick. And that Hahn's ego would never allow him to admit that trading for Shark was a disaster, but at least he had that draft pick that he could hang his hat on and push the analysis of the overall impact of the trade 2-3 years into the future. From my perspective, I though JR would look at it as $2 million saved from the draft pool so Desmond would actually cost only $6 million net...but, to Hahn, the Burdi and Hansen picks and the ability to sign both of them were going to be what he partially staked his position on (now it seems that the James Shields Death March is causing this to be completely overlooked). It's not what I would have done, I was simply trying to predict what our front office would do. Maybe I should make separate statements in every post for my own personal thoughts/ideas/recommendations and WHAT THE SOX WILL ACTUALLY DO, even if it's illogical/inane. From the moment they didn't trade Samardzija last July, the die was cast about not giving up that pick for anyone but Alex Gordon/Upton. I was HOPING he would last until June, but obviously that didn't happen because the Rangers understood his versatility and athletic ability. I must have posted 150-200 times over the offseason why I thought he would be a good signing, IN GENERAL. Why I thought he would be fine in the outfield (and he has been) and why it made perfect sense for the White Sox to sign him for one season to hold down the fort for Anderson while helping to make this year's team more competitive. I posted about it again and again and again until I was blue in the face, and the majority of posters were against it 1) because of his defense at SS, 2) because of his offense falling off the last year or so 3) because he was a NL player, etc. I would say it was about 15-20% for, 80-85% against. I also argued that Desmond could not only play LF/CF but he also might be able to play 2B or 3B in a pinch...he's just a very good athlete, and all the pressure of passing on that $107 million/7 year extension just got the best of him and it led to a disaster of a season because he was distracted by off field issues. Sure, that's an excuse, and it SHOULDN'T have happened, but that doesn't mean it doesn't or can't happen to pro athletes when hundreds of millions of dollars are at stake. I thought the motivation of playing for a similar contract to the one he turned down would be the spark he needed...and that the line-up in Texas would give him a ton of protection to put up some really good numbers without expectations for him being so high or as high as they would have been had he stayed in Washington with that contract extension around his neck and the attendant expectations that went with it.

Hahn has a somewhat similar background to Quin Snyder (educationally). It took Quin a lot of personal struggles and fighting through demons to get back to where he is today...but he's much better for having gone through that adversity. I don't get the sense "adversity" is a word that has the same meaning at 35th and Shields under JR.

I mean where he was before the last four starts...I suppose they take everything off the table until he proves he can move past it and not give up 7+ runs every outing. Thursday afternoon will be a HUGE challenge in that quest.