Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 12:45 PM) Here's the list of about 30 guys who had 15 or more saves last year, in order of # of saves. I think when you look at the names, you probably put Bobby right around #10 in quality. Francisco Rodriguez Jose Valverde Joakim Soria Brad Lidge Jonathan Papelbon Brian Wilson Mariano Rivera Joe Nathan Kerry Wood Francisco Cordero B.J. Ryan George Sherrill Trevor Hoffman Brian Fuentes Bobby Jenks Kevin Gregg Salomon Torres Troy Percival Billy Wagner Brandon Lyon C.J. Wilson Matt Capps Todd Jones Jon Rauch Huston Street Takashi Saito Ryan Franklin J.J. Putz If salary and contract length were no object, I would trade Bobby straight up for K-Rod, Papelbon, and Nathan. Soria may have more value because of his contract, Mariano may be nails but his age will catch up to him, and Lidge may seem more dominant when he is on - although IMO that is the typical "grass is greener" mentality because Bobby's FB + curve combo is just as deadly as Lidge's FB + slider combo - but there are only three guys that I would definitely take over Bobby for a full season. That said, I'd still trade him for the right package.

If the Sox seriously believe he'll be able to develop the secondary pitches to start, then I want him in Birmingham next year starting. Don't send him to Charlotte where the bandbox + hanging slider combination could hurt his confidence and send him back. Let him develop for a full year in Double A and then maybe think about Charlotte, although for me a guy like him has nothing to prove there. If the Sox instead view Poreda as a reliever, then bring him up now because his FB is good enough. I'm in the camp that says trade Jenks, make Thornton the closer, and if Poreda is ready, have a competition involving Poreda and Richard for one lefty specialist and one late inning, full inning pitcher. Maybe sign a free agent lefty too. I don't want either Poreda or Richard in the rotation though. No freaking way.

One would think the Braves offer allows the Padres the most flexibility. If they get Escobar, Schaffer/Gorkys, and Reyes then they'll have a lot to play around with. They could probably turn around and deal Escobar for more 'spects if they wanted to. Greene should get them a halfway decent prospect although I think they'd be selling pretty low. Giles might be cheap too considering his NTC takes teams out of the mix. If the Sox could unload a couple of outfielders I'd love to make a run at Giles if he'd agree to come here. He would give us a sweet lefty bat and really be the perfect type of fit for our lineup and ballpark. He's got good power, he walks a lot, he hits at home and on the road against both righties and lefties, he has enough speed to score in situations our current sluggers can't although he's not going to be stealing bases, plus he should be Type A after '09, and on top of all that, he could really be the perfect replacement for Jimmy after '09 both as a DH and as a lefty bat. I think his bat is still good for another 2-3 years given his health and power + plate discipline combination. Plus he could hit anywhere from 2-3 or 5-7 in a lineup. Please, please, make a run at Brian Giles. I think we'd be able to get him cheaper than a guy like him would normally go for because of the NTC. And he'll only make like $9M or something. Very affordable. Please do it Kenny.

QUOTE (YASNY @ Nov 10, 2008 -> 06:50 AM) Even in jest, do not come close to posting this type of remark again. I hope I am crystal clear. Sorry, was just a joke. I didn't mean to offend.

QUOTE (beautox @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 05:09 AM) Floyd + Jenks for Reyes and Murphy, would you pull the trigger? Yes, most definitely. We'd be getting the best player in the deal. I'd still try to get Halladay or Rios first though.

QUOTE (Steff @ Nov 3, 2008 -> 08:52 PM) "Let's give 'em the finger", which was overheard and not spoken directly into a tv camera in the hallway of the stadium in New Orleans... and "World f***ing champs" screamed on a stage into a bank of cameras in a public place where there were many children in attendance... not so comparable, IMO. If Paul Konerko had done this I would bet high that Jerry would have cut his slow ass loose. What if he still gave Jerry the f***in' ball? "Jerry, I saved this f***in' thing for you, asshole. You god damned cheap Jew. Konerko rules!" Next day: 5 years, $60 million

QUOTE (frankiethefixer @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 04:07 AM) i really don't see how the twins could get Yunel Escobar the braves are don't want to include him in the peavy talks how could the twins get him? Delmon Young.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 10:55 PM) Carl Crawford has a $10M team option for 2010 that will most definitely be picked up by whatever club owns his rights at the end of the '09 season. And as Dotel, Thome and Contreras come off the books Danks, Floyd and Quentin enter their first year of arbitration and the second for Jenks, his second. Ah, the list I copied from said he was unrestricted. Oh well. I don't want Crawford anyway. I don't think any of the agents of those players are at odds with the Sox. I expect the Sox to offer and hopefully work out deals to cover those arbitration years with all three, assuming they all have very good years again in '09.

I love Jose Reyes as much as anyone, but that's kind of a waste IMO. If we were going to trade one of Floyd/Danks - and caulfield is right, we're not getting a player the caliber of Reyes without trading one of those guys - then I'd rather shop around since we already have a pretty sweet SS on board. I mean, we could probably get Prince Fielder with that package and who knows what else. Alex Rios would be an option if he's available (whom I love and is signed through 2015 at a well below market rate), plus if the Jays for some reason do shop Halladay as had been rumored during the deadline then he'd be an option... I mean there would be so much out there we would be able to acquire for Floyd/Danks + Jenks that would fit better overall than Jose Reyes.

QUOTE (dasox24 @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 04:10 AM) Good stuff. Our system was pretty damn barren last off-season, and while it's still not great, you can definitely see we're beginning to build it back up. This past year's draft really turned out some guys who had very good 1st seasons as professionals. True. I'm surprised Nevin Griffith, Steven Upchurch, and Charlie Shirek didn't get any mention while crap like McCulloch did.

QUOTE (bighurt4life @ Nov 9, 2008 -> 03:41 AM) OK, then what does he have? Is he just getting low level hitters out with offspeed junk or what. Also, it's great to hear that Shelby 3 has such a strong work ethic, he's obviously got the physical skills. He could be Chris Young v. 1.0 for us. Not sure what his defense looks like but he definitely has the speed and the power. He looks to have a little better contact skills than Young with the higher average but much like CY he does strike out a lot. Still, nice to see that we've got a CF in the system with real star potential. Shelby doesn't have Young's defensive skills or power. He's a good prospect, but from everything I've read it looks like he's a tweener. Had he been able to stick at 2B it would be a different story.

I expect both Danks and Floyd to regress to some degree next year as part of their transformation into veteran big league pitchers, but I don't expect either one of them to fall off the map. Buehrle I don't worry about at all. He didn't work a huge number of innings last year anyway. If Danks and Floyd do regress a bit then that is even more reason to bring in some more young guys. I'd like to see a new, young rotation laid out that pretty much grows up together. The hope would be competition and perhaps another division title in 2009, but really everything would be planned around opening a brand new window of opportunity starting in 2010. If you let Fields and Anderson also show you what they've got, then you have some answers going forward. Plus the free agent market after '09 is going to have some stuff we're going to want. These guys are all unrestricted FA after '09: 2B: Placido Polanco Brian Roberts 3B: Adrian Beltre Hank Blalock Chone Figgins Chipper Jones OF: Rick Ankiel Jason Bay Carl Crawford Johnny Damon Brian Giles Vladimir Guerrero Matt Holliday Hideki Matusi Xavier Nady Jason Werth Randy Winn SP: Erik Bedard Justin Duchscherer Kelvim Escobar Rich Harden John Lackey RP: Joaquin Benoit Chad Bradford Octavio Dotel Mike Gonzalez John Grabow Kevin Gregg Ryan Madson I just left the names I thought were the most interesting, but there will be some players to spend money on and fill remaining holes with. Plus a re-stocked farm system allows us to explore better trade opportunities. With enough money free we could make a very serious run at a couple of these guys. We'd have whatever we traded off the books plus Dotel, Thome, and Contreras coming off as well. That would be another $29M.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 06:53 PM) Agreed on Ludwick... I'd also avoid Ankiel. I'd also stay away from Lloyn. I'm still trying to figure out how he ever had an ERA under 4. And why would we want Crisp still? I'd much prefer getting Taveras for cheaper. Both are .280 hitters with a .330 OBP and play pretty good D. The difference is that Crisp has more power, but Tavares is the better base stealer. I wouldn't mind Cruz though. Is he a type A or B free agent? I agree with all this. Cruz unfortunately is Type A though. Cruz pros: -very good stuff -healthy -capable of pitching a lot of innings out of the pen -capable of working in multiple roles -previous success in the AL Cruz cons: -we lose our 1st round draft pick -likely will command 3 years or more, in part due to Linebrink's deal setting the market -likely will command around $5M+ per year, again in part due to the deals given by us to Linebrink and Dotel It might be worth it to shop around for relievers via trade. Personally, I'd rather look to deal a prospect like Shelby, who is a good player and should make the majors but doesn't really fit well anywhere, than lose a first rounder.

QUOTE (TCQ @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 03:19 PM) Btw obviously i have no way to prove this but i trust my buddy and he tells me he has a cousin in cali that use to blaze with vitters in high school...funny story I believe you. I'd get high too if my last name sounded like a brand of cat food. I bet it wasn't his weed though.

Small market teams probably like helping the Cubs out because they know the more jerseys the Cubs sell, the more money they'll pocket through revenue sharing. Honestly I have no idea what else they'd be thinking. There is not one player in the Cubs minor league system and only a couple players on their Major League team that I'd rather have than Yunel Escobar alone. Add a CF in Schaffer or Hernandez, who are again better than anything the Cubs would give up aside from maybe Vitters, and Atlanta is offering more on top of that? Oh, I forgot how AWESOME Sean Marshall is. And man, that Ronny Cedeno is gonna be so good he's going to make Cesar Izturis look like Rey Ordonez! And Felix Pie?!?! GTFO! That guy is gonna hit .240 all over this b****! Man, what a deal...

QUOTE (Wanne @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 12:08 PM) Honestly...what would you expect Kenny to say?..."Jerry Owens is just plain bad...we really want no part of him..." and kill whatever value he may have. Kenny probably could have boosted Owens' value simply by saying, "We think Jerry Owens can be a serviceable 4th outfielder in the Major Leagues."

I hope we sign this kid. It would be like getting cheated on by an average-looking chick with a s*** personality who you just were with because she helped you win a championship three years ago and then getting all mad but then bouncing back with this Cuban chick who is like 50X hotter and hits for more power.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 12:04 PM) That's all fine and good, but KW has always used the minor league system largely as a talent pool for his trades to improve the 25 man roster...at least up until this point. Very true. The guys I'd like to see targeted would be ready for AA or higher starting in '09, meaning they'd ideally be MLB ready around mid-to-late 2010 to join Poreda the starter, Beckham the 2B/3B (assuming Alexei sticks at SS), and possibly Danks the CF. 2010/2011 should be the first year in a very long time that we'll have a very nice crop of young, homegrown talent coming up together. Two of the SP would have to be ready to step into the back of the rotation for 2009. In a perfect world, we make moves like this: Jenks for SP ready now + SP prospect Dye for SP ready now + SP prospect Paulie/Swisher for SP ready now + CF prospect Javy for SP prospect + corner OF/1B power prospect Then the 3 SP who are ready now compete for 2 spots in ST. The other goes to the pen or Triple A. Perhaps you bring in a veteran to join the competition, or if not and you use young guys in the 4th and 5th slots, then once Jose Contreras comes back you go to a 6-man rotation, piggy-back the last two starters every 5th day, or have them skip starts. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 12:04 PM) If you trade Jenks and Dotel, that puts an awful lot of pressure on Thornton and Linebrink, and Scott's "iffy" to me coming into 2009 as a reliable pitcher like the first four months of 08. I doubt Dotel would be moved because the Sox would have to be bowled over given his almost certain Type A status after '09. I would be very confident in Thornton as the closer and I'd be confident in Richard as the second lefty out of the pen. Signing a lefty setup man would probably be a good idea in that situation. As for Linebrink, I'm about as confident in him as I could be for any middle reliever. He had his injury issues last year, but over his career he's been about as dominant of a setup man as you could ever expect. His long-term health and contract viability are still big questions, but that's really it. He got his velocity back late last year after coming back and has always been a first pitch strike kind of guy. No mental issues with him. What it really boils down to is that, no matter how much money you do or do not spend, there will always be questions about your bullpen no matter who you are. These guys go from nobodies to outstanding players every team wants and then back to nobodies again quicker than probably any position in professional sports. The Sox have some guys in Derek Rodriguez, Jon Link, and Kanekoa Teixera that should be ready next year, along with works in progress like Wassermann and Russell plus whoever else they happen to pick up over the offseason, so there is some depth. Obviously that may not matter, but it's hard to build a bullpen you're confident in. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't trade either Jenks or Dotel and then they both went down for several months with injuries in '09. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 12:04 PM) I mean, we all know that we still have a long ways to go to really have a youthful team, and there hasn't been much recentl mention of AJ aging and his throwing problems (yes, 60-70% of it is the pitchers)...which is another major concern as well. I'm not concerned about that at all. Catching prospects are way overrated anyway. They hardly ever develop into guys that can hit and when they do there are teams that immediately want to move them to DH or 1B, sometimes even elsewhere. The Russel Martins, Dioner Navarros, and Brian McCanns don't come around often enough to waste time and money looking for them IMO. I'd rather sign a veteran catcher off the free agent market or make a trade for one once that time comes. Get a guy that you know can handle pitchers and swing the bat somewhat decently. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 12:04 PM) If you trade Vazquez, Dye and Swisher/Konerko...well I just don't realistically see how you can compete in 2009...when the Twins will be better, the Indians and Tigers SHOULD be better and the Royals also are making strides. Let's say by trading those players you end up with a couple of guys at the back of the rotation, one of which can equal Vazquez's 2008 in terms of wins and ERA and another who would be an improvement over Richard (I don't buy him as a starter), and both guys give you the upside of #2's or #3's like Danks and Floyd were. Not only do you get younger and better, but the money saved can go to long-term deals for Quentin and Danks, perhaps others as well. As for taking Swisher/Konerko and Dye out of the lineup, I look at it as being a 2005-like situation. We have soooo much power that we can afford to trade a couple of guys and still hit our 200 HR. If Fields alone plays everyday at 3B, you've got 20-40, somewhere in that range depending on how healthy he is and how much he has to work on his swing. We have no idea how much his injuries were bothering him at the dish, nor do we have any idea how much work he'll be able to get in over the offseason and during ST. A Quentin-Thome-Swisher/Konerko-Ramirez-Fields 3-7 is still quite formidable in terms of power. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 12:04 PM) I agree fundamentally with what you're arguing, I just don't think KW is ready to do that quite yet. I do think he will see what is available in exchange for Jenks, Dye and Vazquez, not to mention Swisher and Konerko...but whether he actually pulls the trigger is another question altogether. In the back of his mind, KW knows if he did essentially the same thing with Buehrle and Dye in 2007, he wouldn't have gotten a Division Championship this year. I don't know how ready Kenny is to continue getting younger either, but I really hope he does. As far as Buehrle and Dye go, it would have been stupid for Kenny to trade them anyway. At the time Boston was offering us absolute garbage for a half year of Dye, basically players not even worth the draft picks. Buehrle was the same thing and there was NO reason not to extend him. The whole Buehrle fiasco made me ashamed to be a Sox fan. Besides, I'm not talking about trading Buehrle, he's part of our core. Javy isn't a loss like Mark would've been, not even close. Trading Dye makes sense because he's coming off a great year, will be under team control for 2009, possibly 2010 as well, and he's on a below-market deal. If the Sox get offered a bunch of horses*** like Justin Masterson and Wily Mo Pena again then there's no reason to deal him.

This guy kinda sounds like the Cuban Bill Braski.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Nov 8, 2008 -> 09:47 AM) Am I the only one who really wants Willy Aybar? I wanted him a long time ago when he was getting wasted and skipping out on the Braves. When the Braves people suspended him or whatever they did, or reported him missing or however the story goes, that's when I wanted Kenny to swoop in. As it is now, he's raised his value a ton and now we'd be buying high on a UT player. It's not like he'd cost anything really, really good, but I think he'll be too expensive. For what I think he'd cost, I rather see the Sox go after Maicer Izturis if he's available. If there's any truth to the Konerko-for-Figgins stuff that has been going around, that's a guy I'd like to see come back. He could be a UT type or our starting 2B and #2 hitter if all else fails.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 7, 2008 -> 07:39 PM) Doubtful . TB 's highest paid player for 2008 was Carlos Pena at $6 mil. Dye made 9.5 mil in 2008. Don't anticipate TB changing their frugal ways any time soon. Tampa does have some money coming off the books. Trever Miller ($1.6M), Rocco Baldelli ($2.25M), Cliff Floyd ($2.75M), plus arb-eligible guys like Johnny Gomes who made over $1M could be non-tendered. I don't know how much of that money will be eaten up by raises, perhaps all of it and then some, but they still are shedding some contracts. Plus, they have a couple of contracts in Troy Percival ($4M in '09), Chad Bradford ($3.5M in '09), and Dan Wheeler ($3.2M in '09, $3.5M in '10, $4M TO in '11 w/ $1M buyout) that perhaps the Sox could take on. I wouldn't touch Wheeler's contract with a ten foot pole, and Percival probably isn't a MLB pitcher anymore, but Bradford's deal isn't bad at all. Actually I'd think it would be worth positive value, although Bradford did somehow make it through waivers to Tampa unclaimed last year. If you have a base of say Dye for Jackson + prospect, then maybe you make it Dye + prospect for Jackson + prospect + Bradford. It's important to remember that Jackson is arb-eligible and should make at least $1M+, so TB would be cutting that too.

I'd much rather NOT see the Sox buy high on a soon-to-be 30-year-old former AAAA platoon player coming off of a career year in the National League. If we deal with the Phils and Victorino isn't an option as part of a package then I want the deal centered around Carrasco, but only if the Sox think Carrasco can become a #2-3 starter and pitch out of the back of the rotation in 2009. Personally I'd like to see us deal Javy, Jenks, Dye, and shop one of Swisher/Konerko in order to re-stock the farm, mainly with pitching prospects but also with a CF prospect to put alongside Danks. Shop Dotel too if someone wants to overpay knowing they'll most likely get Type A compensation after '09. If a corner OF spot opens up as a result then the Sox can pursue some guys who may come cheaper talent-wise via trade (meaning we deal more of the Shelby, Richard types and not the Poreda, Beckham, Danks types), like Randy Winn or Brian Giles. Or, sign a guy like Ibanez or Dunn to throw in LF for one year and take over for Thome as a LH DH after '09. Maybe even bring Griffey back as a LF/RF for one year since he wouldn't cost us any draft picks, or do the same with Juan Rivera or Garrett Anderson on a low base as part of a LF platoon. Either way, re-stock the farm and at the same time bring in a couple pitchers who can develop at the back of the rotation while also giving Fields a shot. Because of the strides our new core has made, we should be able to do something similar in '09 that we did in '08, which is partially rebuild yet still remain competitive. That way, going into 2010, we'll have a lot of money to spend, a very young team, and a much better farm system. I think we need to create a better foundation for the franchise to stand on so that we can compete for the next 10-20 years. Maybe I'm just naive, but the intentions behind the last two drafts, plus all the minor league changes including the discovery of the scouting and player development scandal, plus the moves Kenny has made since the 06-07 offseason to create younger core, all has me optimistic about the future. We just need to continue along those lines.

QUOTE (CWSOX45 @ Nov 7, 2008 -> 08:42 PM) Guys Beltran isn't going anywhere. Hate to break it to all of you. The Mets aren't trading their best outfielder unless they're getting one in return. Right now their outfield is Beltran, Church (who's been plagued with concussions all last season.), and either Danny Murphy who isn't fleet of foot, or Nick Evans who is a career utility player. I hate to break it to all of you, but if we trade with the Mets I can see Aaron Heilman coming this way. He resides in Chicago and needs a change of scenery. The Mets are sick of him, the fans are sick of him, and I'm pretty sure he's sick of New York. If they're asking for Jenks, the Sox better ask for Wilmer Flores. He'll only be 18 years old...but trust me, he's the next Miguel Cabrera. The only question is whether or not he'd be available to the Sox, I know he was signed last year, and I don't know if there are any regulations regarding how long a player must be signed before being traded in the minors. Flores has gotten a lot of hype but so far it has definitely been warranted. I looked it up and the Mets signed the kid for $700K in 2007 as a 16-year-old SS out of Latin America. The Sox signed Juan "Man-Man" Steroideverio for $600K that same year as a "16-year-old" SS out of Latin America. The type of season Flores had compared to the garbage season Silverio had just underscores the damage that s***head assclown Wilder did to our system and consequently our need to continue rebuilding our farm system. Flores would be a nice step in that direction. As is usual with highly touted prospects, fans don't want to see these guys traded when they have them in their systems. I'm sure if you asked your average Mets fan if he'd deal Flores for Jenks the Mets fan would say "no way," but this is the type of return Jenks is worth. If the Sox can get Flores and another player, maybe a mid-rotation prospect like Jon Niese or if that is too much a bullpen project like Sanchez or Heilman, this would be the type of deal the Sox would have to seriously look into. There has been talk of the Mets being interested in both Jenks and Vazquez. Truth be told, I would not at all mind a Javy + Jenks deal if we can get both Fernando Martinez and Wilmer Flores along with a pitching prospect, but I just don't see how that could all work out unless the Sox took a bad contract in the process. The only bad contract the Mets have that doesn't expire after '09 is Castillo, and $6M through 2011 is waaay too much for a guy with 2 major surgeries in the span of a year. Normally it would be tempting to pick up the bad contract and eat it if it means a much better prospect, but if the Sox thought about doing that, I'd obviously much rather see them take that $18M over the next three years and invest it in the draft and international signings.

QUOTE (False Alarm @ Nov 4, 2008 -> 10:48 AM) FWIW i'm pretty sure i remember reading something somewhere corroborating bureau's statement that he'd injured his leg and would be out for the year. sorry, can't remember where i saw it (it was several months ago obviously). and i'm only 90% sure i even did. i think it was a broken leg or ankle (not a knee or muscle i don't think). if that's the case i'm hoping it shouldn't affect his prospect status (eg, the way a wrist injury can sap power) and that he'll be ready to go from day 1 next year. Thanks. I hope you heard right and he's still someone to watch.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 5, 2008 -> 03:38 PM) Compare him and Getz/Nix. If those were the only options, and you couldn't shoot yourself, which would you take? I'd probably be willing to part with something small we didn't need to pick him up for a year or two. It depends on how Alexei fares at SS. If Alexei has a lot of trouble with the position, to the point of the Sox wanting to move him back to 2B or even CF, then Greene is a great addition. For a 2B though I'd rather have Getz. We need more players that can both make contact and get on base. If Alexei fits at SS but Getz doesn't at 2B then I'd look for a better hitting 2B.