Kenny Hates Prospects

I hope to God Peavy saved money on his car insurance by switching to Geico.

The Sox should eat the remaining 2009 salary owed to Oh Do Tell, Thome, and Dye if the Sox are set on not picking up their half of the MO, which looks to be the case. None of these guys are getting arb so the Sox should eat salary and get whatever they can. Or, if someone is willing to pick up their remaining salaries (probably pretty unlikely) then dump the players and put the couple million saved into the 2010 team. I doubt anyone goes, but if someone does I think it'll be Dotel. Maybe Pods too if he already cleared waivers this season.

Getz 1-4, single, 2R, BB Betemit had 3 doubles

Morel 1-4 with a single Greene 1-3 with a BB Phegley 2-3, 2B, BB Short 2-3, 2 singles, K Nunez gets the save for Charlotte

It's time to shut Upchurch down. This kid HAS to be hurt. He has waaay too much ability to be pitching like this in f***ing Bristol.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 05:34 PM) No I gave you reasons. Yesterday, 03:54 PM Yesterday, 04:04 PM You are the one arguing that he is something more than a "solid 1b spect". When I say "plus" in terms of 1b, they have to be an excellent hitting spect, some one who is going to have a chance at an all-star team, which means they really have to hit. Okay, so you're saying that you've seen him and you think he's okay but not great. I was asking more along the lines of what you saw that made you think that, but that's fine. Yes, I'm arguing that he is an above-average 1B prospect with star potential, and at the same time I'm admitting he is not an elite prospect and it is very unlikely that he becomes a truly elite player. I believe Allen has the ability to make an All-Star team in the future, but he's not an annual or perennial All-Star caliber of talent. And keep in mind how many above-average players there are in baseball who may make 1 or 2 All-Star teams in their careers but yet are quite valuable to their teams and make a lot of money. In our organization, as far as prospects and young players go, I'd say we only have four guys that are capable of making several All-Star teams and becoming elite players, and those would be Beckham, Viciedo, Quentin, and Johnny Danks. I have an opposing view to yours in that, first of all, while 1B is a position that is "easier to fill" with a quality player than several others, it still doesn't negate salary commitments, and it still is very difficult and/or expensive to acquire better 1B prospects/young MLB players without drafting them and developing them yourself. Joey Votto for example is going nowhere, neither is Justin Smoak. Maybe Votto makes Yonder Alonso available, but good luck convincing the Reds to trade him to us for players we'd be willing to give up. So when you say it's no big deal to just dump a prospect like Allen off without getting an asset in return that can help your team as much as Allen's potential would suggest is possible, then that means you have to fill that hole through trade or free agency. If you fill it with a trade, and you get a veteran, then not only are you getting a large salary but you're giving up lots of talent in the process. If you sign a big name free agent 1B then you're going to have to pay not only market value, but you'll have to outbid the big-money crazies like the Red Sox which saddles you with tons more risk and is only even an option if ownership allows. Plus you give up draft picks. By trading off Allen for a setup man you're giving up the possibility of 6 years of a productive player at below market value, with three of those years at the league minimum unless a longterm extension is reached. This means that you have to give out money to a veteran to fill that hole, and now those funds cannot be applied to other areas of weakness. And, most likely you're going to be giving up pretty damn good talent in the process. Setup men OTOH are always available in free agency and never cost what above-average position players cost, in fact, they don't even cost as much as above-average DH's cost on the open market. Their ceilings are always lower, and their careers are always more volatile. I haven't said in this thread we shouldn't have traded Allen. I'd trade anyone in this organization for the right player. Trading a prospect like Brandon Allen without getting a star position player or top-end starter that will really help this team out is a waste. Maybe Allen alone doesn't get us a star position player, but I'd rather deal Allen and Jordan Danks for a proven star than deal Allen alone for an overrated righty specialist about to hit arb. And if we had to deal Allen alone, I'd have much rather traded for another young player with the potential to be a star as a starter or position player, which is exactly what Kenny did with Quentin. Kenny f***ed up with this deal. Even if Allen never does s***, Kenny f***ed up by selling low and getting a f***ing righty specialist for Allen instead of shopping him over the offseason when probably half the teams in baseball are going to be looking to cut salary and deal productive players.

Okay, so let's take some votes here for FOTY among us few but proud SoxTalk MMA fans 1st place vote = 5 points 2nd place vote = 4 points 3rd place vote = 3 points 4th place vote = 2 points 5th place vote = 1 point Let's make a list of FOTY candidates, and then we can vote on it. And we can keep this running too until the end of the year. I'll add these fights: Takeya Mizugaki vs. Jeff Curran - adding this one too Benji Radach vs. Scott Smith - didn't like this fight but has been mentioned, so will include it Rich Franklin vs. Dan Henderson - s***ty ending with the eye poke, but great fight up to that point Rich Franklin vs. Wanderlei Silva - completely forgot how awesome this fight was ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So here are the named candidates so far: Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira vs. Randy Couture Diego Sanchez vs. Clay Guida Martin Kampmann vs. Carlos Condit Dominick Cruz vs. Joe Benavidez Miguel Torres vs. Takeya Mizugaki Urijah Faber vs. Mike Brown II Takeya Mizugaki vs. Jeff Curran Benji Radach vs. Scott Smith Rich Franklin vs. Dan Henderson Rich Franklin vs. Wanderlei Silva Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir II ...and feel free to add any fights to this list as you think of them. Then we can vote at the end of the year, or whenever. And I vote that we enforce a penalty upon any who have not seen these fights to check out mmalinker.com and view said missed fights in order to continue receiving posting privileges in this thread.

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 04:26 PM) Kampmann/Condit didn't do it for you? Guida/Sanchez? I wouldn't put Guida-Diego on that because from my seat that was a one-sided asswhipping in Diego's favor. Normally a fight has to be very competitive to be a FOTY candidate IMO, but the Nog-Randy fight is a candidate because of the names involved. Even though Nog won that fight in a no-brainer decision, it was like watching something historic, like some great moment in the sport's history, and it kind of took it to a level beyond that of your normal extremely exciting fight between two lesser-known fighters. Just seeing Randy and Nog look like their old versions and go three rounds toe-to-toe was incredible. Completely forgot about Condit-Kampmann and you're absolutely right. Definite FOTY candidate from the UFC. Edit: BTW I've become a total WEC homer and as a result I usually think about those fights first.

QUOTE (La Marr Hoyt HOF @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 04:45 PM) LOL that's perfect. Now just add Jose and Linebrink as Terrance and Phillip with Ozzie as the angry cop. If I could photoshop that I would.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 03:48 PM) Kenny, Are you really comparing Otsuka (35) to Pena (27)? I guess that just further shows how there is no way to have an "intelligent" debate on this subject. Although after you stated: I really stopped caring because what is the point of discussing a prospect if you think that you know more than everyone else? Also in your first post you said "uninformed statement" which is questioning my knowledge, not my intelligence. But hey thanks again for the smartass remark, its interesting that I am able to express my opinion without insulting you, yet as soon as you are questioned you immediately begin to insult others and state that "your opinion doesnt matter." That is the telltale sign of a weak argument. But my guess is that in your next post you will say I dont even know what an argument is. Otsuka was the old but effective setup man while Pena the younger righty specialist, but there's really no reason to compare them because none of that matters. The point of posting the failed trade was to show that Chris Carter was almost traded for a setup man, and anyone who follows minor league baseball is going to consider Carter much more than your average 1B prospect. I'm getting the impression that some people here think that the return on Allen (Tony Pena) is in some way indicative of Allen's ability and status as a prospect, and because Allen didn't fetch more it means he wasn't worth more. I'm saying that is not true at all, and that Kenny didn't shop him. Chris Carter IMO is a very similar prospect to Allen and he brought us Quentin. But that could have easily NOT happened, and if Otsuka hadn't failed his physical, Otsuka would have been our very weak return on Chris Carter. By posting that failed trade info I'm providing proof that Kenny will sell low on a talented position player in order to pick up a setup man, which to me is bad business. I never questioned your knowledge because you haven't displayed any. I've been explaining EXACTLY WHY I like Brandon Allen throughout this thread and yet all you have done is say he isn't a plus position prospect and point out that he's not Frank Thomas or Prince Fielder. Well no s***, I'm not predicting Allen to be a future HOF'er either. Throughout this thread you have added nothing to back up your opinion that Allen isn't an above-average 1B prospect, and from my perspective, I find it annoying because I've tracked the guy pretty much game by game over the last two seasons, and if you're going to make such a statement then I expect some reasons in order to consider you knowledgeable about anything. Now if you would like to actually present a real argument as to why you do not think Brandon Allen is an above-average (or plus) prospect for his position, which by the way references statistics and scouting reports and not some gut feelings or GM track records, then please go ahead and present that argument. No, your opinion doesn't matter to me at all when you don't back it up by anything. And furthermore I'm not insulting anyone in this thread. I get into arguments all the time with the more stat-friendly users here, and though we hardly ever agree, I still respect their points of view because they supply reasons for their thinking. You OTOH are not arguing anything of substance. If you take exception to me calling you uninformed then that's too bad. If you would like for me to think you ARE informed on the topic, then you need to come up with an argument rather than attempting to school me in semantics like what the word "plus" does and does not mean. Because as I've mentioned before, "plus" is a scouting term that means above average, where average is the base, and plus-plus is elite.

The Pena trade was the only move Kenny made that I've disliked since the first Swisher trade. And those two deals are the only bad moves I can think of that he's made since the Contreras extension, which at the time made sense because they were coming off a World Championship and Count looked like an ace. Kenny's biggest problem aside from those things was the CF situation, but now that we have Rios I think we're in great shape as far as CF goes. In fact, Kenny's best moves over the last couple of years may have been his dodging bullets on contracts he offered to Hunter and Fukudome in an attempt to fix the CF situation.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 03:22 PM) According to Gonzalez in the Tribune: The Sox hold a $1 million option on Garcia, 34, for 2010 that includes $2 million in incentives based on innings pitched. I think its a lock he's back as long as he doesn't have shoulder setback. I LOVE IT!! Best news of the day IMO. If we can have the old 2006 Freddy back next year as well as a healthy Peavy and Hudson in the back of the pen as the 6th starter, we will have what we need in the rotation to win a division.

Keep him, but I want him to snap a lot more in the future. Now time for my conspiracy theory... Today I sat there laughing while he had Williams warming up to keep the game within 1 run. Really, Randy Williams? You know he's going to give up at least one run! So then Williams comes in and does as expected, and now here's Linebrink in the kitchen with his marinara-stained apron on forming big, juicy meatballs in his glove. Then Ozzie loads the bases for Linebrink. Clearly Ozzie is thinking... I don't know what the hell he's thinking! So then Tex gets the 3-run bomb that EVERY SINGLE SOX FAN ON THE PLANET knew was coming. Brilliant. My theory is that Ozzie knew the game was lost and that the offense wasn't going to come back against Hughes and Mariano, so instead of making it a close loss, he opts to bring in the two guys he most abhors and lets them take the game out of reach. Now, not only does Ozzie have another excuse to blame the loss on these guys, but he has a reason to again rip the team a new asshole after the game. Just my two cents.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 03:12 PM) Yeah, and watch what will happen next season -- there will be a few key injuries, a few players expected to be good who will have down years, and then there will be more excuses. We'll go into 2010 with high expectations, sure, but I'm not entirely confident in the roster even knowing full well that Williams can add/subtract a few parts in the offseason. There probably won't be anything drastic. Next year we'll be a lot younger though. And just imagine swapping out Contreras' entire season with Peavy. We're not going to suddenly be a 100-game winner, but with a few moves to fix our atrocious bullpen and if we can sign a competent 5th starter so that Hudson has someone to battle and our rotation has insurance, we could go pretty far. Also CQ should be healthy all season. Even with regression from other players, a healthy CQ goes a LONG way.

QUOTE (daa84 @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 03:05 PM) i never like for us to lose, and i don't think theres a huge difference in drafting say 14th instead of 11th...but in this case, i agree with you, because right now we would be drafting 14th, and there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in drafting 16th and 14th, in draft pick protection for type A free agents, so we best not fall in that lower half of the draft...although i can't see us necessarily signing type A guys EXCELLENT point. If the Sox want Figgins they'd be able to sign him while only giving up a 2nd rounder, which doesn't matter a whole lot because we get Morgado's draft spot back (I think).

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 12:11 PM) Couture/Nog was easily a FOTY candidate. Great show put on by both men. After this performance if Lesnar didn't have a match, I'd easily make Lesnar/Nog for November or December. Thiago went back to doin' work. I say since Vera's got this new found attitude, let's put him in there against Thiago. Marquardt with a beautiful KO. So since this was impressive, do you still give Hendo the shot? Or do you have them fight for a "true" #1 contender. Fun card of fights. Agree on Randy-Nog as a FOTY candidate. I'd put it up there with Torres-Mizugaki, Benavidez-Cruz, and Faber-Brown II. This was the first UFC fight this year I can think of that I immediately thought worthy. I think the UFC was just anxious to get Brock back out there, but Nog-Lesnar is certainly a more emotional fight. I hope Brock beats Carwin and then after that I'd love to see those two go at it. In the meantime it would have been great to see Nog get revenge against Mir, but Mir is already fighting Kongo. Maybe Nog waits it out and gets the next title shot. Agree that Thiago Silva-Vera would be a very interesting fight. Anderson and his manager want to see Hendo and Nate fight it out for #1 contender. Anderson wants a little break. There's a story about it on mmajunkie.

Somebody needs to photoshop a picture of Terrance & Phillip's "Asses of Fire" movie but with Contreras' and Linebrink's heads in their places.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 02:04 PM) Ugh, it's so frustrating we tanked after the trade deadline. We could have gotten rid of Dye and Dotel. I remember getting roasted for suggesting to trade Dotel and try to dump Linebrink if at all possible. We should have made those moves regardless. If we'd have eaten some money on Dotel we would've gotten a nice haul, and had we kicked in a couple halfway decent spects on Linebrink maybe we could have dumped his ass. Probably not, but we still should have explored it. This pen is bad now, but it's going to be REALLY bad in 2010. With Dotel gone our righty options are Pena and Linebrink. We have no secondary lefty. To top it off, we may be forced to move Jenks over the offseason in order to clear more salary to improve other aspects of the team. We're going to seriously need some of our young relief prospects to step up big, and soon. And hopefully we'll be able to find another lefty through trade.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 10:14 AM) Honestly if Conor Jackson is 100% healthy going into next season, he's their starter at 1B next season not Allen. And I still think Pena can turn it around. At least he's shown dominance at the major league level in the past. I think the DBacks beat writer said differently. I read something that said Allen was their 2010 guy at 1B off MLB.com so I imagine that's true. Connor Jackson has been their best LF when healthy so I think he'll return to that role. Byrnes and Chris Young should split time at CF/4th OF next season. Chad Tracy will be gone too which will open up more time. Edited

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 09:50 AM) as long as it is just a lingering effect of the line drive I'm not overly worried, I just hope it's not a new injury. Agree. If anything we should be overly cautious when it comes to Peavy. If we're going to need a ski lift or whatever to get to the top of the mountain then we shouldn't be looking for him to contribute this season anyway. Shut him down if we have to. If we shut Peavy down I'd make Freddy the #4, and if he finishes strong, I'd try to extend him through next season to be our #5 before he hits free agency. A healthy Freddy would be a great #5 for us and it would make Hudson the 6th starter, so if we want to work him in through the bullpen we can, and if not, it gives us depth and the kind of cushion we did not have this season. Then I'd either bring up Hudson as the #5, or if the Sox feel he's overworked, I'd shut him down and call up Harrell. No reason to start Torres, Whisler, Colon, Contreras, etc. I like Harrell's stuff but the control/confidence issues still appear to exist, so I'd like to see him work a little with Coop and see if we can get something positive going for him at the end of the year. Either do that, or maybe crowd the clubhouse so that we have a bullpen day for 5th starters. Run out Harrell, Link, Santeliz, Nunez, DRod, and maybe Fernando Hernandez too every 5th day so that we get a good look at some of our relief prospects. DRod and Hernandez would have to be added to the 40-man, but that's no big deal because we have to do that anyway if we want to keep them out of the Rule-5 draft.

I hope this fight shuts up all the people who insisted both Randy and Nog were done after their last fights. The Nog last night beats Frank Mir in a rematch IMO (and I hope that happens) and the Randy who lost to Brock was still a very good fighter, however he was way overmatched by the #2 HW in the world. No shame in that. Also, I can't believe there were so many quick 1st round KO's on one card! Going now to check who got KO of the night, but I hope everyone with finishes got bonuses, and I imagine they did.

PS http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/phillies-inte-1.html So there. The same guy Kenny dealt for Carlos Quentin he also was going to deal for Akinori Otsuka, who at the time was a 35-year-old setup man with 4 seasons in MLB. I maintain that Allen is a very similar prospect to Carter, and I believe this Tony Pena deal was very close to the deal the Sox almost made for Otsuka. It was a short-sighted, desperate move by Kenny and a steal for the DBacks

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Aug 30, 2009 -> 03:26 AM) Yes A plus prospect is one that is above a "regular every day player" its a player who you are expecting to be at least above average with the chance to be an all star. Frank Thomas was a plus 1b spect. Prince Fielder was a plus 1b spect. Brandon Allen, not so much. Id be careful about calling people uniformed. And he meant this player http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Chris-Carter.shtml An "average" spect to me is some one who will be a bench player/starter for a bad team. A plus spect is some one who has the potential to be a star. I dont throw around the term "plus" as easily as you. But thanks for the insult, you get to go on the small list of people who have insulted my knowledge. I hope that Allen makes an all star team for your sake, otherwise youll look pretty silly for your "uniformed" statement, A plus prospect by your definition is a prospect with the ability to be above average at his position. Okay, that's exactly what I'm saying Brandon is. If you don't like it, I really don't care. Your opinion means nothing to me whatsoever. And serious LOLlies for you calling Frank Thomas and Prince Fielder "plus" prospects. Uh, hello??? There's a difference between an above-average or "plus" prospect by your previous definition and an elite hitting prospect. In scouting terms, Adam Russell for example would have a plus fastball (93-97 with some movement) while Neftali Feliz would have a plus-plus or elite fastball (high '90's with movement, basically unhittable). There more levels here than just average or plus. If you went and told someone that Albert Pujols has plus power you'd be wrong, because Konerko has that kind of power. Pujols is on another level above that, and is Thome, etc. BTW I did not insult your knowledge, although I believe the correct term there would have been "intelligence." And don't worry, even if I do I don't expect you to notice.

QUOTE (danman31 @ Aug 29, 2009 -> 09:29 PM) I guess it's definition of prospect. If a guy projects as a tweener, he isn't much of a prospect is he? Also, I think you are talking about Chris Carter of the A's, not the Red Sox. I was talking about the Red Sox Chris Carter as the run-of-the-mill guy and the A's (Vernon) Chris Carter as the much better prospect. Maybe I didn't do a very good job making note of that. This "projects" thing is probably where I'm losing you. Obviously different people project players to do different things. Allen wasn't seen by *everyone* to be some tweener/AAAA guy. Some scouts love him, others for some reason are pessimistic. Saying Brandon Allen "projects" as a tweener IMO is just like saying Poreda "projects" as an ace. You can find scouts reportedly saying these things, but so what? You can also find others saying the exact opposite. In either case you have certain people making glaring omissions in their evaluations - in Brandon's case it his development over the last two seasons and his ability to make adjustments at each level and in Poreda's case it is long odds of him developing enough secondary stuff. As far as other tweeners and AAAA players would go, their status as prospects and their value all depends on who is looking at them. Jeff Clement's stock has fallen quite a bit, but the Pirates still wanted him even knowing he wasn't going to stick at catcher. Kendry Morales' stock took a hit over the years as the Angels kept him in Triple A in the PCL and I remember reading AAAA comps about him too prior to this season. Well obviously he still had value because he's a stud. I think people sometimes forget entirely how far a MiLB player's stock can rise or fall over the course of just ONE MiLB season and how volatile "projections" are and how little some of them are based off of. Allen was under the radar entirely until last year and his numbers prior to that aren't exactly eye-popping so it makes sense others would be slow to come around anyway. But I don't know what there is not to like about his game. He makes enough contact to hit in the Bigs, he walks enough to hit in the Bigs, he has far more than enough power to hit in the Bigs, and for a 1B he's very athletic and deceptively fast. The attitude, work ethic, ability to learn and adjust, coachability, all that stuff checks out very well for him. And if you've seen him hit, he's not exactly Josh Fields with the bat.

Part of our defensive inability has to be attributed to the overall attitude of the team and the garbage we've had at the 4 and 5 spots in our rotation. Another reason is inexperience and youth all over the infied, and yet another is a defensive hole in CF when BA or Rios weren't out there and RF when Rios wasn't out there. Next year we'll have more experience in our IF and our IF will have all of ST to work together at their positions. Our pitching staff will be a lot better (assuming none of our top 4 get hurt and miss large chunks of time) and this should make a better winning environment which can only help our defense by keeping the players' heads in the games. Our #1 priority over the offseason should be an above-average defensive RF, preferably with a lefty bat if we can find one. This will keep Rios in CF and will really help our OF D as a whole. After that, I'd like to pick up another lefty in the pen and possibly a lead-off hitter if we can fit one in. We won't need a ton of work though and I don't think we're as far away from being a title contender as our play this season would seem to indicate.