Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 10:52 PM) Okay, in that case, they'd have to trade for him, so it doesn't make as much sense....too risky, giving up talent and committing to an uncertain pitcher who has never pitched in the AL before. He's in that Danks/Quentin/Jenks/Crede delicate year-to-year arbitration no man's land. And surely the Braves won't try to extend him unless they're 100% certain about his long-term viability and injury prognosis. So that leaves Kuroda, Rodriguez and Oswalt (that it could be realistically argued would be able to outperform Floyd). Isn't Rodriguez under contract too?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 09:55 PM) That KW has no vision. If this is all we could get for CQ, we could have traded him last season IMO. While that's probably true, he held on to him to keep fans like you happy.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 09:46 PM) I just can't understand the defense of Kenny on here. The Quentin trade sucked IMO. It's a no brainer to say it sucked. I guess nobody on the Sox we ever trade is worth a s***. To get two hack pitchers for CQ seems pretty lousy to me. Carlos arguably was the second best hitter on the White Sox last year. I guess our organization is THAT BAD if our second best hitter can't get us a haul of anything but two players who in the words of our own Dick Allen are "garbage." He's only under control for one more year, what is so hard to understand here?

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 06:30 PM) Unfair. Unfair. Unfair. He has been great the past year and a half mentality-wise. Carlos Quentin was a gamer. I truly hope we have other hitters (aside from Paulie) who can get as hot as CQ does. I can't believe a lot of people on here mock Carlos for his injuries but refuse to mock Jake for the same reason. The guy had 483 plate appearances last year, but he's hurt all the time. Rite. I can't believe the mocking of our own on here sometimes. Last year - CQ 483 plate appearances, 421 at bats. 2010: 527 plate apps. 2009: 399 plate appearaances, 99 games. 2008: 569 appearances. So in the last four years, he's played 118 games, 131, 99 and 130. One out of four years he's hurt a ton. Give me a fricking break regarding CQ. He's a stud IMO. You are definitely a troll...your posts are beyond ridiculous.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 12:38 PM) About 95% of MLB hitters get their stats in bunches. The guy who is really consistent week to week is pretty rare. If Quentin hits 24 homers and drives in 80 runs only being good 25% of the time, he's pretty spectacular that 25%. I have nothing to back this up, but he seemed streakier than most. He'd literally go cold for weeks at a time and do so multiple times in a given season. So yes, all players are streaky to some extent, but there's certainly different levels of streakiness and different levels are more acceptable for different players. You definitely need your middle of the order bats to be more consistent than your bottom of the order bats. When a guy like Quentin goes cold for a month it can cripple an entire offense. I honestly don't get why people are so upset about losing him. Between the streakiness and the constant injuries he made a poor middle of the lineup bat. He's a perfect example of why you can't just look at stats in a vaccum. Yes he put up decent numbers in aggregate, but he killed our offense when he was cold or hurt, which was a significant portion of the season. He just might have another MVP-type season before all is said and done, but you'd have to be crazy to give him a long-term deal at over $10 million per year given his recent history. Therefore, he had to go and with Viciedo ready and able to replace him (and hopefully with more consistent production), that time was now. The return may not have been great (probably should have dealt him at the deadline), but it's about what should have been expected at this point. We got one guy with the potential to be an above-average starter and a left-hander who has some talent. Both are far from guarantees, but they add some depth to the numbers game that is building a major league pitching staff via the minor league system. Unless Quentin had a huge first half and managed to stay healthy, we would not have done better at the deadline anyways.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 11:55 AM) He's been worth that kind of money over the last 3 seasons. That's a reasonable contract for him. Unless I was the Yankees, I wouldn't be willing to offer that contract. 4 years for $40 million seems like a reasonable contract to me, but I'm sure he'll get more than that.

Why would a team trade for Floyd if Jackson is still on the market? The only reason would be if Jackson's demands are outrageous, which would basically eliminate us from the conversation in the first place. So basically, we'd have to sign Jackson and then deal Floyd. I just don't know if I see KW attempting to do such a series of moves. Reinsdorf has never seemed like the type of owner to allow KW to temporarily go over budget to pull off something like this. I like the idea in theory, as I wouldn't mind another starter locked up long-term, and I actually like Jackson more than Floyd (not even including the young talent you'd get for Floyd). However, I think it's clear by the timing of these moves that KW has cleared salary to make a run at Cespedes. Seems like KW waited until to around the new year to make these moves, allowing for offers to improve until he actually needed the cash for Cespedes, who should be a free agent soon.

QUOTE (Springfield SoxFan @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 07:28 PM) Agreed, most of the people on this board were upset about picking up the extension, so why not take a chance on two players that the Jays paid over the slot bonuses for. Not sure why people are hating on Jaye. He put up solid stats for a 19 year old in his first and only professional season. He may not be a great prospect at this moment, but he's got youth on his side. He's exactly the type of prospect you should target when trading a guy like Frasor.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:30 PM) bolded #1: because he quit. bolded #2: you really want a GM that tells the truth all the time? then you can have a team that is constantly in last place. bolded #3: you love Ozzie because he was a White Sox player with no managerial experience. You rip Ventura because he's a former Sox with no managerial experience. Got it. Thank you for mentioning point #2. Nothing pisses me off more than people (usually Greg) saying "KW lied about ______". He's a f***ing professional trader/salesman and has to lie to GMs, players, and fans to do his job effectively. He's got to hype up his own players, even if he doesn't truly believe in them, to build up their value. He's going to lie about the direction of the team to confuse opposing GMs and sometimes to help sell tickets. These are just a couple of reasons why a good GM lies and it's simpl part of the job.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 03:11 PM) I don't know why some of you guys consider Ozzie a quitter. Ozzie says a lot of things like all ballplayers/baseball people. Just like Kenny lied and said he'd trade for guys ready to contribute now. Lie. At Ozzie's age, name a better candidate to be a manager on a baseball team. His resume was built in Chicago and now other teams get to reap the benefits the next 20 years. Great. And we get Robin Ventura, who should make the game threads very very interesting this year (unless it's full of people assuming we're going to lose most games the next 10 years as we "rebuild") As usual, this post is all kinds of fail. Ozzie Guillen is a p**** who quit on his team. This is not up for debate, unless Ozzie suddenly became a white New Yorker those last two games. Also, for the love of god, stop claiming that Guillen is destined to do great things. He won a World Series for us and even his biggest haters, including myself, are grateful for that. However, what has he done since that season? You can rip KW all you want, and a good chunk of it is deserved, but he has put together that looked good on paper. Yet our teams have continued to underachieve practically every season since. We always start off cold and fold like a bunch of p*****s when the games truly count. After several seasons of the same bulls***, Guillen has to be accountable. Furthermore, Guillen's in-game decision making has gotten worse and worse, most likely due to his ever growing ego. He actually puts our team at a disadvantage on a regular basis. If I were KW, I would have fired Guillen on the spot last season for the time he pinched hit with Dunn. That was by far the dumbest baseball decision I have ever seen made in my entire life. I honestly have no idea how anyone can think he's something special? And what's with the Robin Ventura hate? Does he not make enough funnies to keep you entertained in Lawrence? Everyone here knows Ventura will be very raw next year, but after that it's anyone's guess. He could become a good manager eventually or he could flop out in 3 years. But stop acting like Ozzie came in with some huge pedigree. He had just as much managing expedience as Robin. And let's be honest, Ventura probably can't be any worse Guillen. All he has to do is look at some basic statistics (i.e. splits), stop throwing away outs bunting guys over constantly (and overdoing the stealing as well), not reward lazy p*****s by benching them for one game and then putting them right back in the lineup the next game, and not bring up contract extensions in the thick of the playoff race and then quit on your team when you don't get one. If Robin can just follow those simple rules, he's a decent chance at being better than Ozzie next year.

QUOTE (baseball17 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 06:21 PM) Does no one see Leesman as being a part of the rotation - or even the bullpen? What about Remenowski - I think he could be a good innings eater in the BP. It's sad that hardly any of our minor leaguers get any love. Leesman has a shot of being a solid left-handed reliever, but I don't think he'll ever be a starter at the major league level. If Thornton gets moved before spring training, Leesman, Veal, & possibly Santiago will be the favorites to replace him. Not a fan of soft-tossing relief prospects like Remenowski even if they've had minor league success. While it's not a fair comparison, I have bad memories of Ehren Wasserman everytime I hear his name.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) The other thing that has been happening rapidly is that the demand side of the pitching market seems to have vanished as well. The Nats, Rangers, Reds, and Angels have added the SP they needed, and Boston and NYY just haven't gotten into it at all, seeming to prefer sticking with what they have or to look for bargain basement additions. Personally, I'd say that compared to where things were in November, the demand for SP seems to have dried up more, thanks to guys like Gio and Latos appearing on the market when people didn't expect them to be. If we go into the season as-is, then the kind of offer we'd be willing to accept for Floyd is going to depend on what the team does. Unfortunately, we've already seen recently what happens when we try to wait on the market for a pitcher to develop, we wind up resigning the guy because the trade market didn't develop. And frankly, that was for a better pitcher, even if there's a cost difference of $10 million between the 2. Hypothetically, if an offer appears that is significantly better than what is available now, then I think we'd all be willing to move him...but right now that isn't there, and counting on things to get better seems to run counter to current trends. Until the Yankees, Red Sox, & Blue Jays acquire SP, I think it's premature to say the demand for SP has vanished. Yes, there are now less teams looking for SP. The demand for SP was so high this offseason that several teams decided to jump into the market and sell off their young, cost-controlled starters. The price for guys like Latos, Jurrjens, Cahill, Gonzalez, etc was insane but obviously worth it to some teams. However, just because the Yankees & Red Sox didn't want to pay the price for one of those guys, doesn't mean they aren't looking for legitimate upgrades to their rotation. Floyd isn't going to cost three or four top propsects. So once the remaining good free agent starters like Jackson & Oswalt sign deals, Floyd will become a very attractive option to teams that still have a need for SP. IMO, if at least two of the Red Sox, Yankees, & Blue Jays haven't filled that need elsewhere, then the market for Floyd will improve. Then it's up to KW to leverage those AL East teams against one another and try to get the best package possible. Obviously I don't know for certain if these teams will still need SP in a month or so, but right now it seems like a decent possibility that a couple of them might. I don't know why you think that's so far-fetched.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 02:22 PM) If I write a post that is based entirely on "If Alex Rios develops a work ethic"...I have a feeling people would scoff at it. Well none of us know for sure how the market for SP will look a month from now. The only thing that seems likely is that the supply side of the SP market will decrease as we get closer to spring training. So if there are still a few teams with a demand for SP at this point and the number of suppliers has gone down, it would be reasonable to expect the cost to acquire SP to go up. This is just basic economics. Obviously I don't know how many teams will have pitching to trade or will be looking to buy pitching by late January. However, IF the market shifts in the right direction for us and a team is desperate enough to offer us two quality SP prospects I'd take it if I were KW. I'm not saying this will happen and I'm definitely not saying this offer is on the table at the moment. I'm just stating that IF I can eventually get such an offer IN THE FUTURE then I would be willing to trade Floyd. That's the price it would take for me to move him now. Otherwise, I'd probably wait to the deadline to deal him. He's our most valuable tradable asset and I'd like to use him to get some young pitching.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 12:36 PM) What realistic sign have you seen that this is even remotely possible right now? If there were "2 quality SP prospects" available for anyone on our roster, other than maybe for Alexei, do you think we'd be moving on that? If these offers were out there, we'd have taken them for Danks, for example. First off, I said "if" we can, meaning at some point between now and spring training. I'm not saying that offer is out there right now or even that such an offer will even be made eventually. I'm simply stating what price I'd be willing to accept in exchange for Gavin this offseason. Second, Floyd at 2 years is much more valuable than Danks at 1 year IMO. I don't think it's that far fetched that a team gets desperate for SP in the next and would be willing to give up two quality SP prospects for Gavin. It may not happen but I don't think that price is ridiculous for a mid rotation starter locked up for two years. Third, clearly our definition of quality prospects differ. I'm talking about top 10 prospects in a reasonably good system. I'd prefer one of those guys to be a top 100 prospect, but would not expect anyone in the top 30 or 40. Is that really that crazy?

I still think we need to move Floyd if we can get two quality SP prospects for him. Right now, we have Danks & Sale under control for the next five years. That's two top to middle of the rotation starters right there. Humber is under control four more years. I know people aren't sure what to make of him yet, but I think he can be a solid #4 starter and worst case scenario a very strong #5. If those guys can meet those expectations, and obviously there are risks there, we'd still need one top of the rotation starter and one mid rotation starter. I think Molina has the potential to become a #3 down the road, but expecting anything more that would be a stretch at this point. Petricka might have the stuff to become a #3 as well, but that's even less likely. Not sure if anyone in the system even has that kind of potential outside of maybe a 2011 draft pick (haven't researched them much) or Santiago (simply because he's a lefty). Right now, all our other SP prospects, including Stewart and Axelrod, project to be back of the rotation starters at best IMO. Adding two more SP prospects for Floyd and focusing on pitching with our top couple picks in the next draft would go a long to help filling those remaining two spots.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 09:34 AM) Why would the guy take a paycut if he could go to arbitration and probably get a raise? At very least he would have gotten his last annual salary. There are plenty of comps out there he could have used in a hearing. There is no way he would have gotten a raise. Frasor made $3.5 million last year, which is already on the high-end for an average right-handed setup man. He didn't have a great season in 2011 and is already 34 years old. IMO, the Sox would have had the upper hand in abritration. I honestly think a $3 million arbitration offer would have won if Frasor seeked a raise, so worst case scenario is he's back at $3.5. Best case scenario he's back at $3.0 million. Either way, it's cheaper than his $3.75 million option.

The problem with Frasor was picking up the option. There was just no reason to do so. We should have just offered him arbitration and then tried to negotiate 1 year deal at like $2.5 million. I'm guessing he would have accepted less to stay in Chicago since he's from here, but if not, he would not have gotten much more in arbitration after the year he had last year and the prices relievers have been going for this offseason. And while I think Frasor will be solid for us next year, if he rejected arbitration he could have been replaced fairly easily in free agency. Picking up that option never made sense to me.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 24, 2011 -> 12:54 PM) Viciedo=Bobby Bonilla Forget the Vladimir Guerrero comparisons, a HOF career is pretty unlikely. We don't need him to have a HOF career, we just need him to be an all-star type talent and legit #3 or #4 hitter. He's more than capable of that, and considering we have only one other player in the entire system that even has that potential (Thompson, who's a huge longshot), we are not at liberty to trade Viciedo for pitching. I know offense is easier to fill, but we still need have to have some cost-controlled players to build the lineup around. As for Cespedes, he makes perect sense for us, given his immense potential and the lack of talent in our system. I understand that a lot of people want to give De Aza a chance as an everyday player, and I'm in that camp, but you don't pass on a player like Cespedes because of him. De Aza would still get a ton of playing time as our fourth outfielder given that all three regulars would be right-handed. Right now, our focus should be on adding young talent that can help us win two to three years from now. Cespedes fits that bill perfectly.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 24, 2011 -> 09:41 AM) AAARRRRGHHHHHHH!!! Cooper did say earlier this offseason that he thinks Stewart's long term role is in the bullpen. But even if that's true, it's crazy to start him in the pen this year. Even as a reliever, he'd benefit from starting in AAA and piling up innings, in terms of getting practice on his offspeed stuff. Furthermore, if there's a 10% chance he turns into a successful starter, a starter is so much more valuable than a reliever it's silly to give that away without at least trying. You move him back to the pen for a year, that's it, he's never leaving the pen again. Yeah, I agree completely. Stewart should start the season in AAA and continue to develop as a starter. With Reed, Crain & Frasor, we only need one or two more right-handed relievers. We have several options in-house already and maybe they'll bring in another guy or two on minor league deals. I'm not too worried about those last couple spots. There are a couple of much bigger question marks that will dictate our season.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 10:26 PM) J4L is out of his mind at times but comparing the Nats situation to the Sox situation is just as insane. I'm not comparing our situations, I'm just trying to make a point. We essentially had the same record as the Nationals last year, but their outlook looks so much better than ours? We both have players at the major league level that we can expect to produce more in 2012, so the reason must come down to their stud prospects. I'm not denying that their system blows ours out of the water, I'm simply calling J4L out for once again assuming that other teams' prospects will all develop into stars. He constantly makes comments about how all these s***ty teams are going to be amazing in a few years. This is him overrating prospects, which he just said he doesn't do. Answer me this, what's so fascinating about the Nationals' major league roster? Outside of Zimmerman, I don't see much on offense. Ramos looks like he'll be a solid catcher, but I don't think he'll be a star. Morse is not going to repeat his numbers next year. Werth was a huge waste of money. I already acknowledged they have some interesting pitching, but is that really enough to overcome the Phillies, Braves, and Marlins?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 22, 2011 -> 03:44 PM) I'm always accused of overvaluing/overrating prospects. Then one of these 3 or 4 for 1 deals happen and everybody here says the team giving up multiple prospects is nuts. I love this for the Nationals. You now have a 1-2-3 that is as good as any in the NL sans Philly. Harper will be up next year. Rendon shouldn't take too long. The Nationals are coming for everyone soon. Lol...you are ridiculous and you continue to overrate prospects. The Nationals won 1 more game than the White Sox last year. You haven't shut up about how bad the Sox are and how we have no chance, but now the big, bad Nationals are coming for everyone in one of the f***est toughest divisions in baseball. Obviously their pitching will be a lot better with Strasburg back for a full season and the addition of Gio (although he'll regress outside of Oakland), but their offense still sucks IMO. So basically you're assuming prospects like Harper and Rendon will develop into stars and lead the Nationals into the promiseland despite having to overcome three teams that are currently better at the moment. I don't see it happening, but I'm not surprised you do.

I don't get why everyone thinks this extension is probably the result of KW not liking the offers he was getting for Danks. Why is it so hard to believe that KW wanted to extend Danks this whole time but Danks had simply expresses no interest until now? If I had to guess, the trade talks got to Danks and he decided he was happy here. Either his agent went to KW or KW came to him and told he was close to dealing him if he wouldn't agree to extension. Extending Danks has always made the most sense for this club regardless of the direction we are heading. He's a young, quality left-hander who can be the anchor of a young rotation. He's definitely no ace but he still has the potential to be a damn good #2 starter. We now have one of our top of the rotation spots filled for the next five years, with a lefty no less. That makes the rebuilding effort that much easier. If you believe in Sale, then we only have three spots to fill long-term. Between Humber, our existing minor league talent, and any prospects we bring in by trading Floyd, Quentin, and Thornton, I think that's very doable. However, in two years if we're still struggling to fill those spots, we now have a 29 left-handed starter with three years left on his deal that we can use to get a ton of young talent, much more than than we would have gotten now. Either way, this deal seems like a win-win for the Sox.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2011 -> 04:18 PM) Ick. Lol...about a year ago you were trying to convince everyone that Danks could get close to Sabathia money once he hit the market. Now a 5 year/$65 million extension upsets you? Did one bad year really swing things that much for you?

Resigning Danks to a five year deal is proof we're not going with a full rebuild. We now have two left-handed starters to anchor the staff for the next five years. KW's immediate goal needs to be identifying and/or acquiring the other three future starters. If he can use Floyd, Thornton, and Quentin to get one or two more SP prospects that he has confidence in, then we might not be in terrible shape pitching-wise. Clearly KW thinks the world of Molina if he was one of his targets. Humber should at least be a quality #5 starter with the potential for more and he's under control for several more years. If we can add a couple more good prospects this off-season to the Axelrod/Stewart/Petricka/Santiago mix, I think we could reasonably expect one guy to develop into a solid starter. Obviously there are several big "ifs" here, but the long-term SP outlook would be a lot better than it was just a few months ago. I love this deal for the Sox, but this can't prevent us from moving some of the other guys that need to be moved, especially Floyd. We still desperately need to add young talent to this organization.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 21, 2011 -> 12:40 PM) Just off of memory, I think a whole lot of people saw that coming. I guess I don't remember the rumors or at least anyone taking them very seriously. All I remember was the cost for Viceido was going to be significant and we had never spent anything near the rumored costs on an amateur international free agent. The move was really unprecented for us, so I'm shocked that many people saw it coming, but I easily could be wrong here.