2018 MLB Draft

[Dominikk85]

I would actually prefer a TOR pitching prospect over another 1b/corner OF, ideally a middle IF though.

 

You have to see what's available though and if someone is the best talent you get him even if he is an of or pitcher.

[Soha]

I would actually prefer a TOR pitching prospect over another 1b/corner OF, ideally a middle IF though.

 

You have to see what's available though and if someone is the best talent you get him even if he is an of or pitcher.

 

I find myself feeling this way too. Then I remember the significantly higher bust rate of pitchers, combined with the TJ risk...and I go back to wanting a bat Ultimately a shortstop would be perfect IMO.

[Lillian]

I agree with both of you, and don't see the need for more outfield and first base prospects. If Robert, Rutherford, Jimenez and Adolfo all become legit contributors, one of them is going to have to move to first. My guess would be Jimenez, or Adolfo, with Jimenez being the most likely. The middle of the order bats will probably emerge out of those 4 prospects, plus Burger, Moncada and Collins. Moreover, if Sheets plays his way into the mix, there wouldn't be any room for one of those guys to move to first. I didn't even include Basabe or Fisher, which only adds to the crowded outfield prospect picture.

 

Pitching is still the most expensive and fragile part of the equation. I'd rather accumulate more depth in that department. If the Sox ended up with a surplus, they can always be traded for other needs.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

This guy is a lock to be a Sox target. 4 bunt hits in a game. Right up Ricky's alley. He does look like Pedroia at the plate.

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/index.ss...bunting_to.html

Edited July 23, 2017 by Dick Allen

[Lillian]

Madrigal is the "poster child" for my "pet peeve," regarding choking up. Why a player his size would want to have his hands, way down on

the knob of the bat, makes no sense to me. He is not going to hit much for power, so why not just become an elite contact hitter. He obviously has talent and is highly regarded, but a guy like that could probably be significantly better, with the enhanced bat control, which choking up affords. Hardly anyone ever does it anymore, not even with 2 strikes on them.

[Dick Allen]

Madrigal is the "poster child" for my "pet peeve," regarding choking up. Why a player his size would want to have his hands, way down on

the knob of the bat, makes no sense to me. He is not going to hit much for power, so why not just become an elite contact hitter. He obviously has talent and is highly regarded, but a guy like that could probably be significantly better, with the enhanced bat control, which choking up affords. Hardly anyone ever does it anymore, not even with 2 strikes on them.

 

 

Aluminum bats are a bit different and he did hit .380.

[Lillian]

Aluminum bats are a bit different and he did hit .380.

 

Ok, so he hit .380, which means that he might hit .400, if he choked up a little. I understand, it just isn't done anymore.

Is there some reason that a hitter can't effectively choke up, on an aluminum bat?

 

You have probably read this article:

 

https://jugssports.com/why-dont-players-cho...the-bat-anymore

Edited July 23, 2017 by Lillian

[Lillian]

In my "time zone," as Hawk would say, I grew up with Nellie Fox, as the face of the franchise. That guy choked way up on the bat and exhibited some of the most remarkable bat control imaginable. He could seemingly hit the ball wherever he wanted, and he almost never struck out.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Lillian

[maggsmaggs]

In my "time zone," as Hawk would say, I grew up with Nellie Fox, as the face of the franchise. That guy choked way up on the bat and exhibited some of the most remarkable bat control imaginable. He could seemingly hit the ball wherever he wanted, and he almost never struck out.

Despite never striking out, Fox was not really a good hitter. In fact, he was slightly below average for his career, as his career RC+ is 96. No power. Not a ton of walks. Not sure this what you want a modern hitter to emulate.

Edited July 23, 2017 by maggsmaggs

[Lillian]

Wow! So, Nellie Fox wasn't a good hitter.

In his 10 prime years, between ages 23 and 32, he never struck out as many as 20 times, in one season.

In that period, he only hit below .300 4 times; .296 twice, .289 and .285. He didn't have the natural tools of today's players.

He wasn't big, strong or very fast. Yet he had a terrific career and was key to the Sox offense, as pathetic as it was, in those days.

He was a great '2 hole' hitter, with lot's of sacrifices. He was also very adept at executing the hit and run.

 

Oh well. That was another era. The point is that a guy like Madrigal is not going to be a slugger, or big run producer. He could do worse than

to model himself after a guy like "Little Nellie".

[Dominikk85]

Madrigal struck out 6% last year, his contact doesn't need to get any better. Also with the juiced ball smaller hitters can hit for some power, maybe he can become like altuve and hit 20 per year in his prime with good average.

[maggsmaggs]

Wow! So, Nellie Fox wasn't a good hitter.

In his 10 prime years, between ages 23 and 32, he never struck out as many as 20 times, in one season.

In that period, he only hit below .300 4 times; .296 twice, .289 and .285. He didn't have the natural tools of today's players.

He wasn't big, strong or very fast. Yet he had a terrific career and was key to the Sox offense, as pathetic as it was, in those days.

He was a great '2 hole' hitter, with lot's of sacrifices. He was also very adept at executing the hit and run.

 

Oh well. That was another era. The point is that a guy like Madrigal is not going to be a slugger, or big run producer. He could do worse than

to model himself after a guy like "Little Nellie".

Strike outs really aren't a problem. Look at how many times Trout strikes out and has for his career, and he is one of the best players ever through his first few seasons. Modern baseball has shown that the two most important things in the game are on-base percentage and power. Nellie Fox's career OPS was .710. I really hope we strive for better in our prospects...

[Lillian]

Of course, power hitters strike out, and that's fine. However, little guys like Madrigal might be better served forgetting about hitting homers.

I understand all of your points and recognize that the game has changed. That does not negate the point regarding choking up. It didn't seem to hurt Bonds' and he was the definition of a "power hitter".

 

At any rate, don't mind me. I'm just a "dinosaur". Much about the game is very different from when I first became a fan, in the 50's.

Perhaps there is just no longer any place in the game, for a hitter like "Little Nellie".

 

[Quin]

I mean, if we're gonna apply modern day grades to old time players, Nellie would have some absurd 70+ rating for his hit tool. His power tool would be low, but goddamn he could hit.

[Quin]

I mean, if we're gonna apply modern day grades to old time players, Nellie would have some absurd 70+ rating for his hit tool. His power tool would be low, but goddamn he could hit.

[Dominikk85]

Strike outs really aren't a problem. Look at how many times Trout strikes out and has for his career, and he is one of the best players ever through his first few seasons. Modern baseball has shown that the two most important things in the game are on-base percentage and power. Nellie Fox's career OPS was .710. I really hope we strive for better in our prospects...

 

It is not so simple. Ks are a problem when they come without power. It is always about the relationship between power and contact (and walks).

 

More power means you can afford more Ks. But ideally Ks are not too high. Trout strikes out a lot in a historical perspective but in these days his K rate is merely average. And average contact rate with elite power means you are a very good hitter.

 

However of your walks and power is really elite you can afford high Ks. Adam dunn (in his 20s, not the washed up one in Chicago), is a good example of this. He struck out like almost 30% but he had elite power and even more elite walks. Still of course with lower Ks he would have been better, his ISO and walk rate were basically like trout but his production wasn't.

 

Powerless slap hitting doesn't work anymore though. Lower Ks are always better but only if you can slug the ball. Modern defenders are so good that just putting it in play just isn't enough, you need to hit it hard.

 

[oldsox]

It is not so simple. Ks are a problem when they come without power. It is always about the relationship between power and contact (and walks).

 

More power means you can afford more Ks. But ideally Ks are not too high. Trout strikes out a lot in a historical perspective but in these days his K rate is merely average. And average contact rate with elite power means you are a very good hitter.

 

However of your walks and power is really elite you can afford high Ks. Adam dunn (in his 20s, not the washed up one in Chicago), is a good example of this. He struck out like almost 30% but he had elite power and even more elite walks. Still of course with lower Ks he would have been better, his ISO and walk rate were basically like trout but his production wasn't.

 

Powerless slap hitting doesn't work anymore though. Lower Ks are always better but only if you can slug the ball. Modern defenders are so good that just putting it in play just isn't enough, you need to hit it hard.

So, I understand now that there are no longer any bloop hits, or seeing eye singles through the infield. Got it. Nellie Fox could not play today. Got it.

 

Lillian: You are spot on with your comments.

[Lillian]

Thanks "Oldsox". It's a shame that today's fans never had a chance to watch a guy like Nellie Fox. Who knows how he would have faired against today's tremendous pitching, but he was fun to watch. In the same way, I'll bet we would have enjoyed watching Ty Cobb. Those hitters played a different kind of game than the one that has evolved. Which version of the game is better, is a matter of personal preference, but it was indisputably different.

[Dominikk85]

So, I understand now that there are no longer any bloop hits, or seeing eye singles through the infield. Got it. Nellie Fox could not play today. Got it.

 

Lillian: You are spot on with your comments.

 

Of course there are still bloop singles, flares and infield hits and fox would get his hits now. But there would be less of those and instead of 300 he might only hit 285 and with 5 hr a year that is not exactly great.

 

[southsider2k5]

Eh. I think the idea that people who played baseball apparently can't understand launch angles is a bit silly. Apparently someone got to Avi because that was a big focus of his this off season.

[bmags]

So just so I'm clear, the game was indisputably different 60 years ago, but we should be looking for players that would be successful in that different game to apply to today instead of players that are successful in today's game?

 

Pitchers are very good now. To make high contact/low power work you need to be on base a lot. And because of the lack of power, you are going to be pounded in the strike zone.

 

If all was equal, I would take a 80hit/30power guy over a 30 hit/80 power guy, but it doesn't take much variation before I'll start to favor more power.

[turnin' two]

Nellie Fox's career OPS was .710. I really hope we strive for better in our prospects...

 

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/foxne01.shtml

 

Umm. Yeah. So that part highlighted in yellow at the top...

 

Oh, yeah, and the stuff highlighted in red, and grey.

 

You are saying that we strive for better than HOF, 15 time All Star, 3x Gold Glover and MVP.

 

Your expectations are unrealistic.

[maggsmaggs]

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/foxne01.shtml

 

Umm. Yeah. So that part highlighted in yellow at the top...

 

Oh, yeah, and the stuff highlighted in red, and grey.

 

You are saying that we strive for better than HOF, 15 time All Star, 3x Gold Glover and MVP.

 

Your expectations are unrealistic.

This discussion was about batting, and my OPS remark is about batting, so this was not a discussion about all-around game. I am saying I don't want a hitter to emulate Fox.

[Dick Allen]

This discussion was about batting, and my OPS remark is about batting, so this was not a discussion about all-around game. I am saying I don't want a hitter to emulate Fox.

I agree. The Sox need better. Louie Aparicio was a HOFer. Hawk said he wouldn't be upper half now. I would imagine the same with Nellie. Nellie was great for his time, but the game is played differently now. .710 OPS great defense is fine, but Yolmer Sanchez this season .701 OPS, great defense. Yolmer seems like he's a good kid, but he's a back up.

[southsider2k5]

I agree. The Sox need better. Louie Aparicio was a HOFer. Hawk said he wouldn't be upper half now. I would imagine the same with Nellie. Nellie was great for his time, but the game is played differently now. .710 OPS great defense is fine, but Yolmer Sanchez this season .701 OPS, great defense. Yolmer seems like he's a good kid, but he's a back up.

 

216 K's... for his entire career. 10,351 PAs.