At some point you run into diminishing returns for sure. You only have so many slots in the minors and so much instruction time that you can give out.

 

It also completely ignores that a lack of positional talent is what got us to this point in the first place and we are back to trusting this team to draft and develop position players.

Lack of pitching has been just as instrumental to the Sox failures as lack of hitting. The bullpen situation has been an absolute travesty and that has everything to do with not having enough minor league pitching.

 

I agree that the headliner ideally would be a top, top position player prospect but one thing I will never say after enduring the likes of Ronald Belasario and Hector Noesi in major roles is that the Sox have too much pitching on the farm.

Newman is probably a top 40 but comfortably top 50 prospect in the game. There is an astonishing depth of SS, but safe to say he is a top 10 ss prospect. He has a 70 hit tool.

 

So, basically I'm saying let's stop acting as if a top 40 prospect is soxtalk's new favorite descriptor "a throw-in".

At some point you run into diminishing returns for sure. You only have so many slots in the minors and so much instruction time that you can give out.

 

It also completely ignores that a lack of positional talent is what got us to this point in the first place and we are back to trusting this team to draft and develop position players.

 

I am totally with you on this, the Q trade i obviously a HUGE trade for the Sox here. The last big piece to acquire difference making positional talent to put the org on the right track for the next decade. If they dont and they just get the pitching I am not sure they really understood what held them back all these years. I have no issue with the pitching that they have received in return for Sale and Eaton but if they again go to the pitching well with Q I will be at a total loss with what they are trying to here.

Completely agree. Hell, if there's one thing sox organization is actually very good at, it's developing pitching.

 

I would say the Pirates are the best in the game with what they have done with guys every other club gave up on.

 

Not saying the Sox are bad.

If the plan is to eventually trade pitching from a surplus for some offense, considering how difficult it has been to develop hitters, perhaps they should use their biggest trade chip pitcher to acquire the hitters. That would be Q. Trading him for more pitching at best will wind up no gain.

Lack of pitching has been just as instrumental to the Sox failures as lack of hitting. The bullpen situation has been an absolute travesty and that has everything to do with not having enough minor league pitching.

 

I agree that the headliner ideally would be a top, top position player prospect but one thing I will never say after enduring the likes of Ronald Belasario and Hector Noesi in major roles is that the Sox have too much pitching on the farm.

 

The last time the White Sox ranked top 5 in pitching in the AL was 2005.

If that is the scouting report, I don't know why anyone would trade a #1 or #2 starter signed for 4 years at a bargain for a package headlined by a guy who might be almost as good if everything goes right.

 

My sentiments, exactly. If the Sox can't acquire 1, or 2 top position prospects, they might as well just keep Quintana.

I fully expect that some team is going to blink and include one of the "untouchable" position prospects, whom we have been discussing

The Sox will likely get either Bregman, Frazier, Meadows, or someone comparable, plus other pieces.

 

I personally would like a package from the Yankees which included Frazier, Acevedo and either Mateo or Torres.

I understand that Cashman is determined not to trade his top prospects, but that's what it should take to acquire Q.

By that logic, the Sox can't make a trade with the Astros either. Assuming Bregman isn't available, you get a package headlined by Martes and then Tucker. Tucker could be a star prospect, but he isn't there yet. It's basically Meadows or bust unless the Yankees or the Cubs get into the action...

 

Ultimately, I think a Glasnow, Newman, Keller, Hayes deal would do it for me. Newman is a top 50 position prospect. Hayes probably isn't far outside the top 100, and you get two more premium arms back in the deal.

 

While that is a solid return, not getting Meadows or Bell would sting a bit as I see them as the "Safest" prospects in the Pirates system. Bell is below average defensively, but nobody will questions that he can hit and get on base.

 

 

 

 

The last time the White Sox ranked top 5 in pitching in the AL was 2005.

 

I would love to see what our offensive rankings during this period (last ten years) were.

I would love to see what our offensive rankings during this period (last ten years) were.

 

Funny enough while we had more dead last rankings we also had 3 top 5 finishes in the AL for runs scored. 2006, 2008, 2012.

Funny enough while we had more dead last rankings we also had 3 top 5 finishes in the AL for runs scored. 2006, 2008, 2012.

 

Which are also the years we were most competitive over the last decade.

Which are also the years we were most competitive over the last decade.

 

And if all of those years of middling pitching had an actual dominant pitching staff I wonder where we would be. Of course, in 2005, we saw a pitching staff tied for cleveland in the AL lead, and bottom 3rd in offense. Dominance in anything helps to be competitive.

 

Although oddly enough did not realize mariners finished top 3 in era and runs scored in AL last year.

Although oddly enough did not realize mariners finished top 3 in era and runs scored in AL last year.

 

Wait what?

The last time the White Sox ranked top 5 in pitching in the AL was 2005.

Is this just using ERA? Because in 2009 the Sox were 2nd in the AL in ERA. But the Sox are first in pitching WAR from 2005-2016 (still first by more than 10 WAR even excluding 2005). The real problem is that they're dead last by a lot (and it's embarrassing how much worse it has been than the other teams, the gap is that big) in defense in the AL since 2005, which of course has made the pitching look a lot worse than it has been.

Edited January 9, 20179 yr by OmarComing25

Funny enough while we had more dead last rankings we also had 3 top 5 finishes in the AL for runs scored. 2006, 2008, 2012.

 

Three of the last four winning seasons for the franchise as well. 2010 being the lone exception.

 

Mark

 

Is this just using ERA? Because in 2009 the Sox were 2nd in the AL in ERA. But the Sox are first in pitching WAR from 2005-2016 (still first by more than 10 WAR even excluding 2005). The real problem is that they're dead last by a lot (and it's embarrassing how much worse it has been than the other teams, the gap is that big) in defense in the AL since 2005, which of course has made the pitching look a lot worse than it has been.

 

Yes, thanks for catch. Just using this:

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/league/al

At first I find it hard to believe the Pirates would trade Keller and Glasnow but thinking of it again - I could see it. As someone else mentioned they get to keep both Bell and Meadows while adding a ace / high end two in Q for 4 years at bargain basement pricing.

 

Please be the week. Please.

 

The other thing to consider for the Pirates is that they are likely going to be trading Gerrit Cole and Cutch in the next 12-18 months which will net them some pretty nice prospects to backfill what they need to give up.

Lack of pitching has been just as instrumental to the Sox failures as lack of hitting. The bullpen situation has been an absolute travesty and that has everything to do with not having enough minor league pitching.

 

I agree that the headliner ideally would be a top, top position player prospect but one thing I will never say after enduring the likes of Ronald Belasario and Hector Noesi in major roles is that the Sox have too much pitching on the farm.

I agree that lack of pitching has been a major problem in this organization, but I can't help but feel we've loaded up on pitching already, to the point that if we're not getting position players back as the key ingredients there's no reason to make this deal. Glasnow + Keller + 2 other guys might be fair return on total talent, but we simply can't start this many pitchers.

I really like Glasnow as a prospect, but was just mentioning that he has not thrown strikes consistently at all.

 

Scouting reports suggest he can develop into a #2 or #3 starter if the command comes along

 

That is pretty much par for the course for guys like Glasnow and Giolito. Those guys that are 6'7 plus usually take a lot longer to develop consistency in their mechanics. Randy Johnson is forever the prime example of this.

I agree that lack of pitching has been a major problem in this organization, but I can't help but feel we've loaded up on pitching already, to the point that if we're not getting position players back as the key ingredients there's no reason to make this deal. Glasnow + Keller + 2 other guys might be fair return on total talent, but we simply can't start this many pitchers.

 

I would obviously prefer packages with Meadows/bell, but have to reiterate that Newman is not just some guy.

I would obviously prefer packages with Meadows/bell, but have to reiterate that Newman is not just some guy.

I really don't think this matters to me - if he's the 3rd piece, he could be a good player but this still doesn't work out. There can't be more than 1 starting pitcher out of the top 2 guys and I'm skeptical we have room for that.

I agree that lack of pitching has been a major problem in this organization, but I can't help but feel we've loaded up on pitching already, to the point that if we're not getting position players back as the key ingredients there's no reason to make this deal. Glasnow + Keller + 2 other guys might be fair return on total talent, but we simply can't start this many pitchers.

There is something tantalizing at looking at a rotation featuring Rodon, Giolito, Glasnow, Kopech, and Lopez/Fulmer.

There is something tantalizing at looking at a rotation featuring Rodon, Giolito, Glasnow, Kopech, and Lopez/Fulmer.

Alex Hansen too.

There is something tantalizing at looking at a rotation featuring Rodon, Giolito, Glasnow, Kopech, and Lopez/Fulmer.

Right there's the problem - just from guys in the organization already you've listed 5 starters, all of whom we can legitimately expect to be demanding big league innings by the 2nd half of 2018 barring injury. Add in Glasnow...and which guy doesn't get a big league shot? Or which guy goes to the bullpen?

 

If you give me a guy like Keller, fine he gets stuck at A ball this year and he's not arriving until 2019 at the earliest and by then we'll at least have given those top 5 a chance to see if any of them are going to flop, he's down there with Hansen so there's continuing depth building up, but the slash you've already put in there shows the problem. You're not running out a 6 person rotation in 2018, and you're not going to cut one of those guys loose if they struggle in 2017 in their first callup.

Right there's the problem - just from guys in the organization already you've listed 5 starters, all of whom we can legitimately expect to be demanding big league innings by the 2nd half of 2018 barring injury. Add in Glasnow...and which guy doesn't get a big league shot? Or which guy goes to the bullpen?

 

If you give me a guy like Keller, fine he gets stuck at A ball this year and he's not arriving until 2019 at the earliest and by then we'll at least have given those top 5 a chance to see if any of them are going to flop, he's down there with Hansen so there's continuing depth building up, but the slash you've already put in there shows the problem. You're not running out a 6 person rotation in 2018, and you're not going to cut one of those guys loose if they struggle in 2017 in their first callup.

I get it, but there are much worse problems to have.

 

If we actually do reach some point where we have 5 studs in the MLB, and 5 studs in Charlotte, and 5 studs in Birmingham, we can worry.

 

That time is nowhere close to today.