13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And can we get rid of the idea that kids somehow can't recover from bad seasons?  Houston lost 106/107/111/92 games over a 4 year stretch.  It sure hasn't seemed to stop them from winning once the talent got to Houston. 

Because most of the players on those teams were nowhere near Houston when they started winning. And the few who were still there developed, and performed. The White Sox guys we are all hoping for so far almost to a man, need to take a rather large step. Best case scenerio is great, and maybe somehow they all get good together. But something needs to light that match. It isn't trotting the same guys out there and hoping Palka and Delmonico aren't the guys who were let go for nothing from other teams, and Yolmer, who strikeouts out like Ron Kittle, but hits homers like Julio Cruz, isn't beloved because he pours water on his head. It isn't watching Adam Engel continue to show us he can't hit.  It isn't trying to figure out if Minaya and Infante are indeed the same person. Maybe getting some wins, or at least coming to the park really thinking they can win will help Moncada. Maybe it will help Anderson and Giolito, and Lopez. Because if those guys don't step it up, it's going to be a while.

Edited November 27, 20187 yr by Dick Allen

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Spending money on a starting pitcher only to push them into the bullpen because Kopech and Cease need their roles and they are more important is a bad use of money, not a good one.

If they are good and were pushed out because a younger player is better, you can trade them, it's a fine use of money.

I'm old enough to remember when this board kept guffawing at how untradeable verlander was, or stanton, or kemp or etc etc. 

You don't want to be bad and needing to trade expensive veterans for talent infusion. As it is, it really won't matter.

2 years ago ATL signed a bunch of veteran, decent pitchers in trying to drum up interest for their new stadium. The prospects weren't close enough. It was a waste of money.

And the moral of that story is it didn't really matter and didn't stop any future moves and ATL is fine and had no issue finding spots for talented players. 

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Because most of the players on those teams were nowhere near Houston when they started winning. And the few who were still there developed, and performed. The White Sox guys we are all hoping for so far almost to a man, need to take a rather large step. Best case scenerio is great, and maybe somehow they all get good together. But something needs to light that match. It isn't trotting the same guys out there and hoping Palka and Delmonico aren't guys who were let go for nothing from other teams, and Yolmer, who strikeouts out like Ron Kittle, but hits homers like Julio Cruz, isn't beloved because he pours water on his head. It isn't watching Adam Engel continue to show us he can't hit.  It isn't trying to figure out if Minaya and Infante are indeed the same person. Maybe getting some wins, or at least coming to the park really thinking they can win will help Moncada. Maybe it will help Anderson and Giolito, and Lopez. Because if those guys don't step it up, it's going to be a while.

This really isn't true though.  There are a fair amount of players off of that 111 loss team that ended up being good major leaguers.  Altuve, JD Martinez, Dallas Keuchel, Marwin Gonzalez, with only Martinez not being on the championship team.

If they aren't going to land any of the big guys, see what's left at the end. There will be bargains. If signing 2 or 3 of these guys is going to make it so they can't afford anyone when the time comes to win, how the hell were they ever supposed to sign Machado or Harper?

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This really isn't true though.  There are a fair amount of players off of that 111 loss team that ended up being good major leaguers.  Altuve, JD Martinez, Dallas Keuchel, Marwin Gonzalez, with only Martinez not being on the championship team.

It's 3 guys out of 50 who played for them. 

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

It's 3 guys out of 50 who played for them. 

Yet, it didn't ruin the Astros core, or their playoff chances.

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet, it didn't ruin the Astros core, or their playoff chances.

60% of what we are hoping is one day a championship rotation is currently on the team. To not have a team who can at least think they can compete behind them, especially since your supposed championship middle infield is also in place, is really playing with fire. And who knows how Kopech comes back. Matt Moore didn't exactly dazzle after TJ surgery. Who knows how Cease will hold up? Who knows what will happen with Dunning's elbow. Who knows when or if Robert breaks out. People are already complaining about Madrigal for some reason. Collins, I think he will be OK, but probably not a 1-1 guy Hostetler said he would have been had he had the first pick. Burger, another question mark. Rutherford has always seemed to be to be a poor man's Ryan Sweeney. Is that something to be excited about?

 

Face it, Moncada, Anderson, Gio, Lopez, Kopech, Rodon., Eloy....the Sox need at least a couple of these guys to be all star quality, and a couple to be really good players if they are only going to buy off the clearance rack.

Edited November 27, 20187 yr by Dick Allen

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

60% of what we are hoping is one day a championship rotation is currently on the team. To not have a team who can at least think they can compete behind them, especially since your supposed championship middle infield is also in place, is really playing with fire. 

If 60% of the rotation fails because of who was behind them years before, they never had a chance anyway.

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

He literally said "Top 40". I did not use that phrase, he could have said "Top 50" and it would have been accurate, but he said "Top 40" which means I'm missing someone because saying "top 40" specifically excludes Anderson.

Interestingly it does include Fulmer, who I don't expect to be on the big league roster next year, but hey that's 6!

I thought BA had ranked Anderson 40th overall at one point (sorry, he only peaked at #45) and chose to label the broader group as “top 40” guys since I knew he was the lowest ranked of the bunch.  Having said that, I think when I referenced top 50 for the rest of the guys in the system it should have been clear what I was going for.  More than half of our highly regarded talents will already be with the team come the end of next April.

Edited November 27, 20187 yr by Chicago White Sox

14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

60% of what we are hoping is one day a championship rotation is currently on the team. To not have a team who can at least think they can compete behind them, especially since your supposed championship middle infield is also in place, is really playing with fire. 

I'm not that upset Donaldson signed with the Braves for one year. Hypothetically, if the Sox signed him to the same deal, or even slightly more, what good would it do for us? 

Not much, as we won't be ready to compete in 2019 even if we went crazy in free agency

56 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Having too many good pitchers is a good thing, not a bad thing.  

Remember, all three of our SPs are flawed / busts, but somehow adding one starter to a multi-year deal suddenly blocks Kopech & Cease.  Sometimes you got to admire Balta logic.

57 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Spending money on a starting pitcher only to push them into the bullpen because Kopech and Cease need their roles and they are more important is a bad use of money, not a good one.

Why can’t we trade a starter if we have too much “good” starting pitching?

23 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

I'm not that upset Donaldson signed with the Braves for one year. Hypothetically, if the Sox signed him to the same deal, or even slightly more, what good would it do for us? 

Not much, as we won't be ready to compete in 2019 even if we went crazy in free agency

Our local TV deal expires at the end of this season.  Another 100 loss season with no signs of improvements will literally cost us significantly.  There are legit business reasons to spend some money this year that go beyond trying to compete in 2019.  I’m actually shocked so many posters continue to ignore this factor and would happily support another tanking season. 

Regardless, I am certain the TV deal situation will have an impact on our decision making this offseason.  At very minimum, they will bring in some vets (likely pitchers) to improve the on-field product and signal a willingness to spend in the coming years.  Ideally, I truly believe their goal is to land a whale and another bridge piece or two.  

Ultimate loclal TV revenue is simply too important to go into negotiations with zero leverage and the Sox know this.

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Our local TV deal expires at the end of this season.  Another 100 loss season with no signs of improvements will literally cost us significantly.  There are legit business reasons to spend some money this year that go beyond trying to compete in 2019.  I’m actually shocked so many posters continue to ignore this factor and would happily support another tanking season. 

Regardless, I am certain the TV deal situation will have an impact on our decision making this offseason.  At very minimum, they will bring in some vets (likely pitchers) to improve the on-field product and signal a willingness to spend in the coming years.  Ideally, I truly believe their goal is to land a whale and another bridge piece or two.  

Ultimate loclal TV revenue is simply too important to go into negotiations with zero leverage and the Sox know this.

I don't believe for a second that a TV network is waiting to see how many games this team wins in 2019.  These negotiations have most likely being going on for quite a while now by the interested parties.  The Sox entered this tank knowing full well that their TV deal ended at the end of this year, which means they also weren't too worried about this affecting their TV deal longer term.  If they were really worried about it, they would have known two years ago that this team was still going to be mediocre to bad this year, and wouldn't have engaged in this team building strategy.

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Rodon has done that every single year. He throws up a 5 game stretch where  he's unhittable with both pitches working, and then he throws up a stretch of 5+ starts where his control isn't there and he's totally hittable. The end result is that he's a pitcher who puts up an ERA in the high 3's. His FIP was worse this year, but that's probably some velocity loss from the injury - I think he's still a pitcher who would put up an ERA in the high 3's or low 4s over a full season...which happens to be exactly what he's done every year. If that's your best pitcher...you are a pretty weak pitching staff.

Similar to Lopez, I think age has to be a factor here.  Rodon has thrown 500 innings of 4 ERA baseball while averaging about a K/IP, before he has turned 26 years old.  Before he pitched in his age 28 season, Max Scherzer had a career ERA of 3.88.  Sometimes guys with the elite stuff, that Rodon has flashed, take longer to develop the command.  If Rodon can harness his control on a regular basis, he could be an elite pitcher.  Even if he doesn't, he is still a pretty darn serviceable pitcher.  

 

***** Please don't convey this as me saying that Rodon is Scherzer.  It is just an example of another guy with elite stuff that took some time to get it all together.  

13 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Similar to Lopez, I think age has to be a factor here.  Rodon has thrown 500 innings of 4 ERA baseball while averaging about a K/IP, before he has turned 26 years old.  Before he pitched in his age 28 season, Max Scherzer had a career ERA of 3.88.  Sometimes guys with the elite stuff, that Rodon has flashed, take longer to develop the command.  If Rodon can harness his control on a regular basis, he could be an elite pitcher.  Even if he doesn't, he is still a pretty darn serviceable pitcher.  

 

***** Please don't convey this as me saying that Rodon is Scherzer.  It is just an example of another guy with elite stuff that took some time to get it all together.  

I agree Rodon absolutely could do this. He has the stuff to do it. I'm skeptical about him particularly because to my eyes he has shown absolutely no growth in his ability to pitch during his 4 years in the big leagues - he doesn't seem to have new ways to attack hitters, and the same things I wrote about him in 2015 are the things I was writing in September 2018 - when everything is working he's unhittable, but if he doesn't have his best control on both pitches he gets beaten around a little bit. If you watched him in 2015 and 2018, the only difference would be the slightly diminished velocity. It's weird, usually when guys are in the league for as long as Rodon they learn new ways to attack hitters, we saw that with all the other guys we developed, but I haven't seen that with Rodon. He reminds me a lot of Edwin Jackson - great stuff when everything is on, but only has 2 pitches and since no pitcher will ever have all his pitches working perfectly all the time, when Rodon doesn't have his best stuff for a few games he gives up 4 or 5 runs and labors through outings.

He's a serviceable pitcher at the back of an average rotation, but that's not going to make this a competitive roster and people keep insisting it could be. Right now he's another guy that if we're saying "We are going to be competitive next year", he needs to break out as an entirely different pitcher than what he has been for 4 years of his career, and that's not even counting the injury stuff. 

41 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't believe for a second that a TV network is waiting to see how many games this team wins in 2019.  These negotiations have most likely being going on for quite a while now by the interested parties.  The Sox entered this tank knowing full well that their TV deal ended at the end of this year, which means they also weren't too worried about this affecting their TV deal longer term.  If they were really worried about it, they would have known two years ago that this team was still going to be mediocre to bad this year, and wouldn't have engaged in this team building strategy.

The Sox entered the rebuild with some of the lowest ratings in baseball and no hope of building a winner.  There was no other alternative at the time.  It was either die a slow death or the blow the whole thing up.  

And unfortunately for the Sox, they’ll likely have to see what the Cubs do with their new TV deal before they can really start negotiations.  Yes, I’m sure they’ve had some preliminary dialogues with providers and I’m guessing those parties aren’t eager to sign a long term contract with a 100 loss team with the worst ratings in baseball and who has shown no willingness to spend on big name free agents.  What we do this offseason and how fans respond to it early next season will almost certainly have an impact on our next TV deal.

18 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox entered the rebuild with some of the lowest ratings in baseball and no hope of building a winner.  There was no other alternative at the time.  It was either die a slow death or the blow the whole thing up.  

And unfortunately for the Sox, they’ll likely have to see what the Cubs do with their new TV deal before they can really start negotiations.  Yes, I’m sure they’ve had some preliminary dialogues with providers and I’m guessing those parties aren’t eager to sign a long term contract with a 100 loss team with the worst ratings in baseball and who has shown no willingness to spend on big name free agents.  What we do this offseason and how fans respond to it early next season will almost certainly have an impact on our next TV deal.

They obviously will have the Bulls and Blackhawks with them. Chances are they stay where they are at, except the games on WGN will probably go away

 

I wouldn't mind them thinking outside the box and working something out with someone like Amazon. Get a prime membership,  watch the White Sox wherever you go.

57 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

He’s a serviceable pitcher at the back of an average rotation. 

I don’t think this is a very good take. 

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They obviously will have the Bulls and Blackhawks with them. Chances are they stay where they are at, except the games on WGN will probably go away

 

I wouldn't mind them thinking outside the box and working something out with someone like Amazon. Get a prime membership,  watch the White Sox wherever you go.

Thatd be great and would have great upside. You're talking a potential turner-braves situation. That said Prime video is not a MLB Advanced Media project I dont think. Not sure MLB would even allow it.

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Sox entered the rebuild with some of the lowest ratings in baseball and no hope of building a winner.  There was no other alternative at the time.  It was either die a slow death or the blow the whole thing up.  

And unfortunately for the Sox, they’ll likely have to see what the Cubs do with their new TV deal before they can really start negotiations.  Yes, I’m sure they’ve had some preliminary dialogues with providers and I’m guessing those parties aren’t eager to sign a long term contract with a 100 loss team with the worst ratings in baseball and who has shown no willingness to spend on big name free agents.  What we do this offseason and how fans respond to it early next season will almost certainly have an impact on our next TV deal.

Nothing has changed then. They really still have no smart choice other than to finish what they started, and not halfass it.

On 11/26/2018 at 2:32 PM, Whitesox27 said:

No it wouldn't have. You'd have to be a fool to rather have Yolmer play 3rd base than Donaldson, even if it was only for a year.

Yolmer is the biggest joke on the team. 

11 minutes ago, pcq said:

Yolmer is the biggest joke on the team. 

He's alright as a utility guy. But those that don't want to spend any money this offseason and go into next season with him as the starting 3rd baseman are smoking crack.

1 hour ago, Tony said:

Yet you want the Sox to make a sizeable commitment to Mike Moustakas.

Moustakas WAR, 2018: 2.5

Moustakas WAR, 2017: 1.8

Yolmer WAR, 2018: 2.6

Yolmer WAR, 2017: 3.5

 

Sanchez is 26, Moustakas is 30. But yes, people are "smoking crack"

You cannot say with a straight face that Yolmer is a better player than Moustakas, even if WAR says otherwise.

30 minutes ago, Whitesox27 said:

You cannot say with a straight face that Yolmer is a better player than Moustakas, even if WAR says otherwise.

Fwar agrees has them as pretty close to equal and Yolmer will be a fraction of the price. Defensively Yolmer has a huge advantage which in 2019 is honestly more important to me with this pitching staff. 

2018 Yolmer 1.7

2017 Yolmer 2.2

2018 Moose 2.4

2017 Moose 2.1