caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Sure but this isn’t a black and white thing. People act as if losing out on Machado means the rebuild is destined to fail and there’s no way to build a WS contender from here. That’s ridiculous. Contenders come in all shapes and sizes (Royals title team was built much differently than last year’s Red Sox, for example). We have the speed...but defense, fundamentals, contact rate (the most strikeouts in MLB history) and absolute lockdown bullpen, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Let’s just call that player a star or even a “superstar.” And move it back down to 5 fWAR as the cutoff. We can cite a Trout or Harper failing to succeed in the playoffs, but you just can’t compete with the quality depth of the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox and Astros. When you are operating like a small to mid market team like the Sox, this is the exact reason why you wouldn’t want to expend so much of your financial resources to a single player. Hard to build quality depth on the MLB roster with additional veterans when you are allocating 20-25% of your team payroll on one player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Timmy U said: Do the Sox have a single 3 WAR player? I’d bet my house that they will have more than one by the 2021 season, the year I expect their contention window to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy U Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’d bet my house that they will have more than one by the 2021 season, the year I expect their contention window to start. Good. Something to look forward to, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: When you are operating like a small to mid market team like the Sox, this is the exact reason why you wouldn’t want to expend so much of your financial resources to a single player. Hard to build quality depth on the MLB roster with additional veterans when you are allocating 20-25% of your team payroll on one player. Which puts us right back in 2005-2016 mode all over again. A Shark here, Frazier there...a Cabrera/Robertson/LaRoche group or Dunn every half decade. That’s not going to work like it did in 2005. Look at what has happened to the Twins and A’s in the post season, that’s our future fate unless everything goes exactly right...which happens about every 50 years for this particular franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: When you are operating like a small to mid market team like the Sox, this is the exact reason why you wouldn’t want to expend so much of your financial resources to a single player. Hard to build quality depth on the MLB roster with additional veterans when you are allocating 20-25% of your team payroll on one player. A team that receives massive state subsidies every year, is the beneficiary of stadium naming rights revenues, AND plays in the city of Chicago, the third largest market in the country, should NOT - I repeat, SHOULD NOT - be operating like a "small to mid market team". Expand the damn payroll to reflect the market you're playing in, and this "20-25%" allocation concern goes away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Which puts us right back in 2005-2016 mode all over again. A Shark here, Frazier there...a Cabrera/Robertson/LaRoche group or Dunn every half decade. That’s not going to work like it did in 2005. Look at what has happened to the Twins and A’s in the post season, that’s our future fate unless everything goes exactly right...which happens about every 50 years for this particular franchise. Part of what made the 2005 approach work is they had an elite pitching staff in place and just needed to make sure there was some ability to score runs for it. So it kind of looked like all those new position player acquisitions made the team successful but the (especially starting) pitchers who had already been with the club were the ones really driving the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy U Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Which puts us right back in 2005-2016 mode all over again. A Shark here, Frazier there...a Cabrera/Robertson/LaRoche group or Dunn every half decade. That’s not going to work like it did in 2005. Look at what has happened to the Twins and A’s in the post season, that’s our future fate unless everything goes exactly right...which happens about every 50 years for this particular franchise. Here’s the one positive thing I will say: ain’t nobody going to want to see Kopech and Cease in a short series. For all the hype on position players, the real ray of hope is pitching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Timmy U said: Good. Something to look forward to, then. That’s where we’re at. Team isn’t ready yet and probably won’t be next year either (unless Cleveland completely falls apart). 2021 is the year but obviously still a lot work to be done between now and then. I just don’t see adding Machado or Harper now as the only path to competing in 2021 and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Fan O'Faust said: A team that receives massive state subsidies every year, is the beneficiary of stadium naming rights revenues, AND plays in the city of Chicago, the third largest market in the country, should NOT - I repeat, SHOULD NOT - be operating like a "small to mid market team". Expand the damn payroll to reflect the market you're playing in, and this "20-25%" allocation concern goes away. Sure but it’s not happening under this ownership group so the front office has to deal with the imposed constraints. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, Jake said: Part of what made the 2005 approach work is they had an elite pitching staff in place and just needed to make sure there was some ability to score runs for it. So it kind of looked like all those new position player acquisitions made the team successful but the (especially starting) pitchers who had already been with the club were the ones really driving the boat. Sure, with Buehrle and Garcia, they were firmly established. But nobody expected Garland and especially Contreras to be so dominant. Or McCarthy to get some huge momentum shifting wins down the stretch run. Without the Loiaza trade and picking up Jenks for nothing, we still might have come up short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Which puts us right back in 2005-2016 mode all over again. A Shark here, Frazier there...a Cabrera/Robertson/LaRoche group or Dunn every half decade. That’s not going to work like it did in 2005. Look at what has happened to the Twins and A’s in the post season, that’s our future fate unless everything goes exactly right...which happens about every 50 years for this particular franchise. How so? The Sox have never spent more than $70M on a single player in the open market. In the past, they weren’t picking from the Tier 2 free agents, they were picking from the Tier 3, 4, 5... free agents. If they are unable to pick up free agents from the Tier 2 group in the coming years (JDM, Goldy, Rendon, Grandal, etc), then I would agree with you. Until then, we will have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: How so? The Sox have never spent more than $70M on a single player in the open market. In the past, they weren’t picking from the Tier 2 free agents, they were picking from the Tier 3, 4, 5... free agents. If they are unable to pick up free agents from the Tier 2 group in the coming years (JDM, Goldy, Rendon, Grandal, etc), then I would agree with you. Until then, we will have to wait and see. Bogaerts too, but the critical need is likely to be one veteran starting pitcher...a #2, at worse a 3 (feel like Im describing whatbTodd Ritchie was supposed to be back in the day.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FT35 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: That’s where we’re at. Team isn’t ready yet and probably won’t be next year either (unless Cleveland completely falls apart). 2021 is the year but obviously still a lot work to be done between now and then. I just don’t see adding Machado or Harper now as the only path to competing in 2021 and beyond. It's not. However it was a great way to jump start that process and add several "WAR" at one time, without it costing prospects. So you keep your depth and you keep your prospects and only pay from what the surplus is...cash. Since we are so low, it would provide us with a nice safety net should 1 or more of out big prospects fall off (likely). Obviously it would be great if all the prospects take off and perform as we believe they can, but you grab a superstar to give you some insurance, and to put a face to the process--give the fans something they can get behind and stay interested in until the winning comes along. It also gives the young players some reason to believe...wow that's Bryce Harper in the locker next to me. This is for real--this is going to happen--people in the organization believe in this process enough to go sign a monster contract. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 28 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Narvaez was our highest last year, unless it was Abreu, Anderson or Moncada (bwar or fWAR). We dumped him for a reliever when the majority of rational front offices wouldn’t have agreed to even assume his existing contract. Is that true? Is the contract for Colome really that bad? I was kind of pleased that we acquired him. Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 What an off season Maybe this is our time Two whales are available Both entering their prime Harper would be an unbelievable catch But maybe Manny’s the better match? We’ve got the money, Rick has said so But will Jerry shell out that kind of dough? Trade for Alonso, then sign John Jay Looking like Manny, he is the play Sign him by Christmas, oh what a present Did I say Christmas? No, in the New Year I meant January came and went and so did the next one Surely by Spring Training, they’ll get the job done Not looking good I fear, taking too long But our competition, isn’t too strong? Why is Moncada taking ground balls at 3rd? Manny is coming here, that’s what I heard Alas San Diego makes a guaranteed offer KW says we don’t have that kind of cash in our coffer What about unprecedented flexibility? Just count that up to my gullibility Now I am upset, now I am pissed They had this all wrapped up, how could they have missed? Time to go online, that’s what I’ll do Time to tell Jerry just who he can screw And about Alonso and his friend John Jay I want them both gone before Opening Day Ok, calm down…sorry for the rant Never really wanted Manny, that is my chant Harper is still out there, that is the hope But why do I just kinda feel like a dope? Following the Palehose sometimes feels like a disease Prove me wrong White Sox, prove me wrong please 5 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 "One-hundred-percent," Martinez told WEEI.com when asked if he had an idea there would be a second straight offseason where free agents were being drastically more undervalued than in years' past. "I knew it was, Why wouldn't it? They got away with it last year, why wouldn't they do it again? What's going to happen? Nothing. It's embarrassing for baseball, it really is. It's really embarrassing for the game. You have a business. They say, 'The market is down, the market is changing.' The market is higher than it's ever been. People are making more money than ever, and they're trying to suppress it. It's more of a race towards the bottom now than a race towards the top. You can go right now through everyone's lineup and you already know who's going to be in the playoffs. What's the fun in that? We might as well just fast-forward to the end of the season." https://sports.yahoo.com/red-sox-star-j-d-193817731.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, FT35 said: It's not. However it was a great way to jump start that process and add several "WAR" at one time, without it costing prospects. So you keep your depth and you keep your prospects and only pay from what the surplus is...cash. Since we are so low, it would provide us with a nice safety net should 1 or more of out big prospects fall off (likely). Obviously it would be great if all the prospects take off and perform as we believe they can, but you grab a superstar to give you some insurance, and to put a face to the process--give the fans something they can get behind and stay interested in until the winning comes along. It also gives the young players some reason to believe...wow that's Bryce Harper in the locker next to me. This is for real--this is going to happen--people in the organization believe in this process enough to go sign a monster contract. But two years before the team is ready to compete in all likelihood. There won’t be other free agents available that are capable of putting together all star seasons at age 28-30 entering the 2021 season? I find that hard to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTC Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 38 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Why is having a 6 WAR player a requirement to being a WS contender? Dodgers (not including half a season of Machado, esp when he was well short of a 6 WAR pace in a dodgers uni) , Yankees, Cubs, and other contenders didn’t have one last year. 31 minutes ago, Timmy U said: Do the Sox have a single 3 WAR player? Here's some numbers from something I posted (what feels like 2 years ago) about 5 weeks ago. These numbers are from last year. My choice of Stros, Dodgers and Sawx was random choice of teams that had a good deal of success - Astros had 20 players at 1.0 WAR or higher. Dodgers had 17, Red Sox had 17. Sox had 10. - Astros had 10 players at 2.0 WAR or higher. Dodgers had 13, Red Sox had 10. Sox had 5. - Astros had 5 players at 3.5 WAR or higher. Dodgers had 6, Red Sox had 6. Sox had none. This is why people are correct when they point out that Eloy reaching 3.5-4 WAR, or even if Moncada reaches 5+ in addition to Eloy, that's not enough. You need studs. Playoff teams typically (no, not always) have a lot of really good players. Not just three guys at 4+WAR and then a bunch of 1.5-2 WAR players. That was the White-Sox-Stars-and-Scrubs-Mired-in-Mediocrity business model. Having a 6WAR player is not a necessity, but this was the Sox golden chance to get one and they blew it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 wow he’s still not at 300? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: wow he’s still not at 300? We can bid up to $299,999,999.99. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: wow he’s still not at 300? We need to just man up and give this dude 10 and 300. No more games or BS, we need to get this thing done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 Just now, SonofaRoache said: We need to just man up and give this dude 10 and 300. No more games or BS, we need to get this thing done. Offer 10/335 and make him say no 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiebs13 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bmags said: wow he’s still not at 300? top 300? man, this just makes it the perfect situation for the White Sox to be for Bryce Harper what the Padres were for Machado. Give him the 330ish over 10 that he wants and END it. He's worth that and more to the White Sox. That being said, it makes too much sense for it to happen. Edited February 25, 2019 by Kiebs13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxbrad Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, wegner said: What an off season Maybe this is our time Two whales are available Both entering their prime Harper would be an unbelievable catch But maybe Manny’s the better match? We’ve got the money, Rick has said so But will Jerry shell out that kind of dough? Trade for Alonso, then sign John Jay Looking like Manny, he is the play Sign him by Christmas, oh what a present Did I say Christmas? No, in the New Year I meant January came and went and so did the next one Surely by Spring Training, they’ll get the job done Not looking good I fear, taking too long But our competition, isn’t too strong? Why is Moncada taking ground balls at 3rd? Manny is coming here, that’s what I heard Alas San Diego makes a guaranteed offer KW says we don’t have that kind of cash in our coffer What about unprecedented flexibility? Just count that up to my gullibility Now I am upset, now I am pissed They had this all wrapped up, how could they have missed? Time to go online, that’s what I’ll do Time to tell Jerry just who he can screw And about Alonso and his friend John Jay I want them both gone before Opening Day Ok, calm down…sorry for the rant Never really wanted Manny, that is my chant Harper is still out there, that is the hope But why do I just kinda feel like a dope? Following the Palehose sometimes feels like a disease Prove me wrong White Sox, prove me wrong please Very well done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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