14 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

So let's get this straight:

Instead of just signing a controllable SP like Q for JUST MONEY, they're going to trade MORE assets away for a controllable SP, after having traded away assets for a fat 34 year old rental.

 

Do I have this correct?

 

If so, it would appear that they're royally fucking up this offseason.

This has ALWAYS been their MO. I am not shocked.

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not defending the logic, but all these guys are likely to be materially better than Quintana next year & beyond.  As for Lynn, who cares if he’s fat when he’s a damn good pitcher who’s proven he can pitch at that weight?

My view was that the team you start the year with would be different than the team @ the TDL, which would be different than the team entering the playoffs.

So, my view was to get reliable innings in FA during the offseason, then trade for a top-end rental @ the TDL.

So, I'm not debating whether or not a Keuchel-like SP in Q (seriously, look at their projections) would be better than Lynn. 

 

I'm arguing that Q for just money NOW, + more assets NOW, + a TDL rental like Lynn would have been a better allocation of assets. And likely, less costly. 

Going from trading away control of assets, to trying to trade FOR controllable assets is a good way to spend more in cash and assets, while shortening a window.

IOW, its fucking stoopid.

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not defending the logic, but all these guys are likely to be materially better than Quintana next year & beyond.  As for Lynn, who cares if he’s fat when he’s a damn good pitcher who’s proven he can pitch at that weight?

I think his main objection, which most and maybe all of us share is we are sacrificing the future for the present, when we could and should be able to have both. 

7 minutes ago, Sarava said:

We don't know if Q would even sign here. I mean, even if he does well, if there's no injuries and Kopech comes up at some point, he would be squeezed out to the pen. He might rather find a spot with a more secure spot in the rotation.

Its a question of STARTING your season-long stocking of the rotation with a rental in Lynn NOW, vs.

Signing "innings eaters"  now, then seeing what Lopez/Cease/Kopech can do during the season, then acquiring a rental during the TDL.

Had they done the smart thing, and added Q early on in the offseason, I have no doubt he would have signed here. Oh well, we're stuck back in clown college now. Let's add control, just after having given it away.

Would have no problem trading Kopech if we get someone like Castillo or Woodruff back. Count me in!

But would be much better if we can trade a lot of depth for them a la the Padres. 

4 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I think his main objection, which most and maybe all of us share is we are sacrificing the future for the present, when we could and should be able to have both. 

Exactly right. This is/was stoopid. They could have had BOTH an innings eater NOW, and a rental later.

This is dumb, IMO.

Does anyone seriously think the Brewers would consider trading Woodruff and, if yes, and Kopech and Vaughn (and Eloy, etc.) are off limits, the Sox could put an acceptable package together?

3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not defending the logic, but all these guys are likely to be materially better than Quintana next year & beyond.  As for Lynn, who cares if he’s fat when he’s a damn good pitcher who’s proven he can pitch at that weight?

Yeah.  I agree completely with this.  Gray would be a huge upgrade.  And would give the Sox a great front of their rotation.  They would have 4 really good legitimate starters.  

Gray has a better career ERA than Bauer.  A better career WHIP than Bauer.  He is also much more consistent than Bauer.  Bauer either gives you a number 1 type season (twice) or a number 4 type season.  He has never finished a season with an ERA in the 3s.  Quite remarkable really.  He has been over 4 5 times, and under 3 once, and under 2 once.  Gray has been over 4 twice, and under 3 twice. and between 3 and 4 three times.  

Gray can be controlled until after the 23 season, at a max of 12 million.  Having Gray go with Giolito, Keuchel and Lynn would be a great rotation.  And if you don't think so, well I think you need to do some more research on these guys and what other teams have.  

His last 2 years, he has put up these numbers, while pitching in Cincinnati.  3.07 ERA, 1.15 WHIP, 10.8 K/9.

Yeah, it would be great to get Woodruff or Castillo.  But those deals are likely starting with Vaughn or Kopech.  Hell, maybe Vaughn and Kopech. 

This would give you 4 reliable starters.  And it wouldn't be a short term move.  You'd have Gray for 3 years.  

It depends on what it would take, but Gray could certainly be a way to solidify the rotation now, while not completely hollowing out the farm like Woodruff or Castillo would.  

And to me, both of those things are important.  This team, right now, is ready to win.  They need another pitcher.  And Gray is a significant upgrade over any of the free agent options except maybe Bauer, but Bauer is just too expensive for the Sox so he isn't a realistic option.  He is a guy you could actually rely on in the playoffs, instead of having to have a hodgepodge 4th starter.  

3 minutes ago, Flash said:

Does anyone seriously think the Brewers would consider trading Woodruff and, if yes, and Kopech and Vaughn (and Eloy, etc.) are off limits, the Sox could put an acceptable package together?

I don't know. One wouldn't think so. But on the other hand, the whole NL Central seems to be moving backwards. I would include Kopech for Woodruff. Not Vaughn or Crochet though.

15 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

My view was that the team you start the year with would be different than the team @ the TDL, which would be different than the team entering the playoffs.

So, my view was to get reliable innings in FA during the offseason, then trade for a top-end rental @ the TDL.

So, I'm not debating whether or not a Keuchel-like SP in Q (seriously, look at their projections) would be better than Lynn. 

 

I'm arguing that Q for just money NOW, + more assets NOW, + a TDL rental like Lynn would have been a better allocation of assets. And likely, less costly. 

Going from trading away control of assets, to trying to trade FOR controllable assets is a good way to spend more in cash and assets, while shortening a window.

IOW, its fucking stoopid.

Does pitching cost less at the trade deadline?  I'm not sure it does.  

1 minute ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I think his main objection, which most and maybe all of us share is we are sacrificing the future for the present, when we could and should be able to have both. 

I 100% agree with that.  Unfortunately though we are limited by how much Jerry is willing to spend, so if you’re Hahn / KW you may have to decide how much of the future you are willing to sacrifice for your shot right now.  I’m not saying trading long-term assets for Gray is the right or wrong call, but there is an argument for building the strongest roster possible (within reason) for the next three years while you have a great core in place and not banking on someone like Cease taking a big step forward.  Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather shoot for sustainable success and not risk shortening our window by moving young controllable pieces, but there is some logic to taking your shot when the opportunity presents itself.  Ultimately, these guys need to decide if they want to take on additional risk now or in the back-half of their competitive window since Jerry won’t spend enough to make the decision moot.

1 minute ago, turnin' two said:

Does pitching cost less at the trade deadline?  I'm not sure it does.  

For a rental? Yes, I'm inclined to believe that in a season like one with COVID-related financial restrictions, and a pending work stoppage, that rentals will be cheap.

 

13 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Would have no problem trading Kopech if we get someone like Castillo or Woodruff back. Count me in!

But would be much better if we can trade a lot of depth for them a la the Padres. 

Dude, we don’t have “a lot of depth” to pull off a trade like that and those teams would be looking for potential impact talent anyways.

5 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Does anyone seriously think the Brewers would consider trading Woodruff and, if yes, and Kopech and Vaughn (and Eloy, etc.) are off limits, the Sox could put an acceptable package together?

 

5 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I don't know. One wouldn't think so. But on the other hand, the whole NL Central seems to be moving backwards. I would include Kopech for Woodruff. Not Vaughn or Crochet though.

It was a rhetorical question. No scenario Brewers trade Woodruff and/or Sox would ante up the price. Besides, Brewers might just be NL Central favorites despite the holes in their lineup.

5 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

For a rental? Yes, I'm inclined to believe that in a season like one with COVID-related financial restrictions, and a pending work stoppage, that rentals will be cheap.

 

Yet last year during an actual pandemic fueled season, the Rangers wanted significantly more for Lynn.  TOR starters are never cheap at the trade deadline.

Eventually the FO will have to trade a valuable prospect for a veteran. I am not saying that the team has do this right now, but that choice will have to be made sometime. One cannot keep saying a championship is in the future. 2020 was an exciting year, but it was also obvious the club had shortcomings, young phenoms or not. 

I would rather trade Keuchel than Kopech , but full disclosure, I can't stand Keuchel.

 

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I think trading Kopech or Vaughn is a non-starter and that's what it'd take 

It would probably take one of those guys to get Gray as well, no? If so, then aim higher. 

It is time to stop trading young prospects for guys that are 30+ years old, or the Sox will become the 2021 Cubs needing to rebuild more quickly than anticipated.

How about just adding to the low payroll and sign Bauer? 

44 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not defending the logic, but all these guys are likely to be materially better than Quintana next year & beyond.  As for Lynn, who cares if he’s fat when he’s a damn good pitcher who’s proven he can pitch at that weight?

Exactly. The “just money” logic was for stars. But when we are talking about a declining #4 pitcher for “just money” vs much better pitchers for prospects that have control, it’s less of a fun talking point.

1 minute ago, tray said:

It is time to stop trading young prospects for guys that are 30+ years old, or the Sox will become the 2021 Cubs needing to rebuild more quickly than anticipated.

The goal is to win a WS. After that, the goal can be sustainability. After seeing what San Diego gave up, I don't think our farm is as loaded as some think. I think it is top heavy, and those pieces will be graduated soon.

Ah the cubs. The only team in history.

1 minute ago, y2chae said:

How about just adding to the low payroll and sign Bauer? 

He's becoming more affordable by the day.

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I have a hard time believing there has been any real discussions for Woodruff. But if Sox can get him it would be incredible.

and re trades vs depth, I have a lot more confidence Jerry will open wallets to re-sign players than sign in new ones of this caliber.

And this will be unpopular but I would rather have Musgrove than Gray

That's very popular with me, fwiw.