Before this thread goes off the rails, I'd like to remind everyone it is totally possible to think Madrigal has a good chance to develop into a solid or better major leaguer and also not think a single home run proves anything.

27 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

Before this thread goes off the rails, I'd like to remind everyone it is totally possible to think Madrigal has a good chance to develop into a solid or better major leaguer and also not think a single home run proves anything.

HOT TAKE:  He's going to go on a homer "tear" and end up with at least 5-7 on the season.

1 hour ago, gusguyman said:

Before this thread goes off the rails, I'd like to remind everyone it is totally possible to think Madrigal has a good chance to develop into a solid or better major leaguer and also not think a single home run proves anything.

It proves he’s capable of clearing the fences which detractors didn’t believe was possible, but other than that you’re correct.

9 hours ago, Kalapse said:

He hasn't displayed an ability to work the count yet, he's seeing 3.68 pitches per plate appearance, MLB average is 3.95. His ability to make weak contact on any pitch is going to be a detriment when it comes to working counts. It's one of the reasons, along with his startling lack of power that he's not a good fit for the top of the lineup.

I never said I thought he should be at the top. IMO he is a perfect 9 hole hitter. I think his position is what it is due to Eloy and Robert being out right now.

5 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

I never said I thought he should be at the top. IMO he is a perfect 9 hole hitter. I think his position is what it is due to Eloy and Robert being out right now.

I don’t think he implied you said you think he should be at the top of the order.

What you did say is Madrigal “works counts”.....Kalapse determined that was a lie. 

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

I don’t think he implied you said you think he should be at the top of the order.

What you did say is Madrigal “works counts”.....Kalapse determined that was a lie. 

He stated Nick isn't a good fit for the top of the lineup. My response was appropriate.

What I've seen from Nick personally is working counts well. Guess I just haven't watched enough games. *Shrug*

37 minutes ago, RagahRagah said:

He stated Nick isn't a good fit for the top of the lineup. My response was appropriate.

What I've seen from Nick personally is working counts well. Guess I just haven't watched enough games. *Shrug*

He works counts when he doesn't put the first ball in play because that's the result quite often when he makes softer contact...so the average of pitches/PA is still going to be lower (3 point whatever, compared to almost 4 pitches for the average MLB PA), but there are two stories coming into play....the whole "Nicky Two strikes battling back from 0-2/1-2/2-2 to full counts and running up pitch counts storyline vs. the putting the first or second ball into play because of bat to ball ability/lack of selection on which pitches he can drive, etc.)

I actually think Nick will produce more if you put him 2 rather than always 9. Numbers may not back that up but he's used to hitting in the top 3.

With the injuries, I'd like to see him at 2 most games the rest of the year, not just v lefties.

Madribomb is unlocked:). I still don't think he will have big power but I bet he can at least be a 5-8 Homer guy with a few 10s in there going forward with some swing tweaks and a bit more strength. 

don't care about his homer total nearly as much as his walk total. nick could be really good if he walked 10% of the time.

 

27 minutes ago, zisk said:

don't care about his homer total nearly as much as his walk total. nick could be really good if he walked 10% of the time.

 

I think with the White Sox lineup having numerous offensive threats, especially in top half, Madrigal may see more hittable pitches. As a result, I think he will not walk as much as people want. 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31
 

One game pushed him up to 20th out of 26 2B.

0.1 to 0.4 shift, back to the much more acceptable 1.6 fWAR pace.  Marcus Semien leading with a 6.0 projection.

 

Btw, Tim Anderson #18, Yoan Moncada all the way up to 21st overall.

Yermin, a 4.8 fWAR pace.

1 hour ago, zisk said:

don't care about his homer total nearly as much as his walk total. nick could be really good if he walked 10% of the time.

 

He almost never swings at bad pitches, so it's not like he's leaving walks on the table. The only way he's really going to walk more is if you bat Leury behind him.

On 5/17/2021 at 10:41 AM, Kalapse said:

He hasn't displayed an ability to work the count yet, he's seeing 3.68 pitches per plate appearance, MLB average is 3.95. His ability to make weak contact on any pitch is going to be a detriment when it comes to working counts. It's one of the reasons, along with his startling lack of power that he's not a good fit for the top of the lineup.

Well if we go off of career stats and I know that's misleading from small sample sizes but Nick is actually at his best when batting 2nd.

BA .375, OBP .412., Slg. .531, OPS .943 . Also think that the Sox haven't lost a game all season when he's batting 2nd. That's just a guess but someone else can check to see if it's true.

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31
 

One game pushed him up to 20th out of 26 2B.

0.1 to 0.4 shift, back to the much more acceptable 1.6 fWAR pace.  Marcus Semien leading with a 6.0 projection.

 

Btw, Tim Anderson #18, Yoan Moncada all the way up to 21st overall.

Yermin, a 4.8 fWAR pace.

I'd be fine with 1.5 fWAR from Nick this year.  The big thing is to just not have any big craters in the position players.  Just sprinkle in some XBHs once and awhile and play acceptable defense at 2B.  

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well if we go off of career stats and I know that's misleading from small sample sizes but Nick is actually at his best when batting 2nd.

BA .375, OBP .412., Slg. .531, OPS .943 . Also think that the Sox haven't lost a game all season when he's batting 2nd. That's just a guess but someone else can check to see if it's true.

Isn’t that though because he destroys LHP and bats 2nd more often against them?

On 5/17/2021 at 12:41 PM, Kalapse said:

He hasn't displayed an ability to work the count yet, he's seeing 3.68 pitches per plate appearance, MLB average is 3.95. His ability to make weak contact on any pitch is going to be a detriment when it comes to working counts. It's one of the reasons, along with his startling lack of power that he's not a good fit for the top of the lineup.

Finally we've hit on the true reason Madrigal sucks. He's hitting those 0-2 pitches for opposite field singles rather than fouling them off like he's supposed to so he can get his P/PA average up.

16 minutes ago, fathom said:

Isn’t that though because he destroys LHP and bats 2nd more often against them?

 Yes but he still has more AB's in the 2 hole than any other spot in the lineup except 9th which is where he has the majority of his AB's. So yes there is a case for him batting 2nd against lefties all the time rather than saying he doesn't work the count and his lack of power makes him a bad fit at the top which is what I was responding to.

In the 2 losses against Minor he was at the bottom of the order. In the one win against Minor he was batting 2nd.

Edited May 18, 20214 yr by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Finally we've hit on the true reason Madrigal sucks. He's hitting those 0-2 pitches for opposite field singles rather than fouling them off like he's supposed to so he can get his P/PA average up.

He tends to make weak contact early in the count, therefore he does not go deep into counts which is what one poster implied, I corrected him. I never said he sucked, those are your words.

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well if we go off of career stats and I know that's misleading from small sample sizes but Nick is actually at his best when batting 2nd.

BA .375, OBP .412., Slg. .531, OPS .943 . Also think that the Sox haven't lost a game all season when he's batting 2nd. That's just a guess but someone else can check to see if it's true.

cool

7 minutes ago, Kalapse said:

He tends to make weak contact early in the count, therefore he does not go deep into counts which is what one poster implied, I corrected him. I never said he sucked, those are your words.

When he does swing early in the count, his contact isn't the best, but the reason that he doesn't go deep into counts is that he doesn't get thrown a lot of pitches outside the zone. He gets to 2 strikes pretty frequently. At that point he has to swing if it's in or very close to the strike zone.

47 minutes ago, Kalapse said:

cool

Mind you this is usually against LHP that he's batting 2nd. We have 2 losses against LHP Mike Minor this year and 1 win against him In the 2 losses Madrigal was at the bottom of the lineup and in the 1 win he was 2nd. Of course in general the Sox crush lefties as does Madrigal but in the 2 rare instances of a loss against Minor he wasn't hitting 2nd and the other hitters didn't hit Minor as well as they do most lefties. So Madrigal is at least good enough to bat 2nd against lefties. Against RHP 9th is probably best.  Madgrigal really needs to hit a lot better against RHP.

Mendick actually has reverse splits and hits RHP better. So if Nick doesn't get better real fast against RHP he'll be on the short side of a platoon unless Mendick is too busy playing the OF. Since Eaton is better against RHP, as is Mendick, it wouldn't make sense to platoon him in RF with Eaton. So as of now Eaton in RF and Mendick at 2nd base is the best combo against RHP.

The greatest prospect of all time according to some on this board, Jared Kelenic, has an OPS of .590. If you take away his debut he is 2-26.

Going by the logic in these replies here Kelenic is a lost cause and will always be fighting to maintain a .600 OPS.

 

17 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

The greatest prospect of all time according to some on this board, Jared Kelenic, has an OPS of .590. If you take away his debut he is 2-26.

Going by the logic in these replies here Kelenic is a lost cause and will always be fighting to maintain a .600 OPS.

The Mariners rushed Kelenic to MLB as a publicity stunt after pissing him off by low balling him on an arb year buyout contract.  If the White Sox had down that this board would have a 100 page thread on it by now.  As I've said: the Mariners are one of the worst run franchises in all of pro sports.  They have an argument for the worst.