The Bullpen Problem

[fathom]

Great job on this CWS.  Iglesias is a very interesting name and makes sense.  Marte worries me with his injury issues of late.

[Chicago White Sox]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

It all depends on JR being willing to a absorb salary.

Marte is earning $12.5 million this year.  He’s also 32 years old already, and is out until the beginning of June with a fractured rib.

Haniger is two years younger, and only earning $3+ million this season...plus the final arb year next season.

 

The Mariners are going to have to clear another spot for Rodriguez later this season, since they have Lewis, Kelenic and Trammell (50/50 whether his bat plays) as their future outfield.

 

My concern is Haniger or Gallo is going to cost Kelley plus other things.  Would rather keep him in house at least another year or two, because his value could increase significantly and he’d potentially be able to be the centerpiece for a much more impactful piece down the road.

[Chicago White Sox]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

Great job on this CWS.  Iglesias is a very interesting name and makes sense.  Marte worries me with his injury issues of late.

There’s definitely some risk with Marte, but I’d hope that gets reflected in the price.  Regardless, we need an OF upgrade no matter where we currently sit in the standings.

[ScootsMcGoots]

Wonder if Marshall is injured.

[YourWhatHurts]

55 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So if I’m Rick Hahn, my two primary deadline targets are Iglesias for the bullpen & Marte for the OF.  The question then becomes what would these guys cost?

Starting with Iglesias, relievers are always in high demand at the deadline and usually require a premium.  That being said, the Reds didn’t get a huge return when moving him this offseason and he’ll cost ~$3M in salary to take on, which might be a problem for some clubs in this economic environment.  That being said, they won’t just give him to us.  I think an arm like Lambert or Pilkington (if his velocity is indeed back) plus a more seasoned relief prospect like Tyler Johnson might get it done, although I may see if they’d take a shot on Marshall instead of the latter.  I know some people may hate that (Jimmy & Tyler both have their fans), but Iglesias would solve a massive problem for us. 

As for Marte, I’m going to keep this one simple.  I think cashing in on Jake Burger makes all the sense in the world given he’s basically blocked everywhere here (unless you think he can play 2B) and flashing legit major league ability.  He will need to keep it up for another month, but I could see teams highly interested in him.  While the Marlins do have Brian Anderson at 3B, he’s only under control for two more years and can play RF if need be.  I definitely think they’d be interested in him as the primary piece for Marte.  Throw in a relief prospect like Caleb Freeman and I think you are probably close given Marte will cost ~$4.2M to absorb and is a true rental.

Theoretically, this means you’ve added two high impact pieces for a 2021 postseason run without giving up Stiever (our best AAA depth piece) or any of the key Kanny starters.  I’m not sure I can come up with a better, more realistic outcome for us that doesn’t require gutting the system.

The Angels will be in denial right up until the deadline.  We really need to make a move earlier, which is why a smaller move for a reliever makes more sense.

That said, if it's a low enough price Iglesias is a nice target.  But I think he will be widely targeted and probably expensive even if his numbers aren't good right now.  And if he goes on a streak up to the deadline he's a pricey player and might cost us one of our most interesting guys in Kannapolis plus more in a bidding war.

IMO it's better to target the most obvious sellers.  BAL, SEA, PIT, COL, AZ these teams will admit defeat early. 

I am not certain about MIA either because they are still in it, they made the playoffs last year, they are trying to build, and this is Jeter's team not Loria's team.  Jeter might think about his Marlins the same way Karnisovas was thinking about the Bulls going into the trade deadline.  If they sell Matte makes sense but with Robert and Engel coming back it only makes sense if the price is low.  If we are spending capital we need more of a longer term solution.

[YourWhatHurts]

TEX also is one of the most obvious.

One thing to consider also is the value of at least a somewhat interested fanbase this year from the perspective of a team that has lost money.  With capacity numbers increasing the teams who think they can draw fans further into the season will probably try to do so.  Owners want their money back.

[caulfield12]

Iglesias, 31 in January, has been the Reds’ primary closer for the past four seasons. He had something of a down year in 2019 but saw both his velocity and his bottom-line results rebound in 2020. This past season, Iglesias tallied 23 innings of 2.74 ERA ball with a terrific 31-to-5 K/BB ratio, eight saves and a 41.5 percent grounder rate. Since taking over the ninth inning following countryman Aroldis Chapman’s trade to the Yankees, Iglesias has been highly effective, pitching to a combined 2.95 ERA with 100 saves, 11.0 K/9, 3.0 BB/9, 1.13 HR/9 and a 37.5 percent ground-ball rate.

Mlbtr.com

In retrospect, the Angels would have done just as well hanging onto Hansel Robles for half the price.  

Just not sure what the asking price is for a player with a negative WAR number...$9,125,000 salary, would JR authorize with the amount they’re already spending on Hendriks and Bummer?

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

TEX also is one of the most obvious.

One thing to consider also is the value of at least a somewhat interested fanbase this year from the perspective of a team that has lost money.  With capacity numbers increasing the teams who think they can draw fans further into the season will probably try to do so.  Owners want their money back.

So how much does trading one of the only marketable/recognizable players hurt the Rangers opening a new stadium vs. the potential return value in a trade?

Right now, his value has cratered...no reason to sell low unless they’re desperate.  Granted, Garcia has been one of the biggest surprises for them this year, along with Solak, Lowe and Kiner-Falefa.  They’re more the future, offensively.

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Too early to write off Burdi, but he’s got to figure out how to command his stuff and fast.  So far in AAA he has 8 Ks & 6 BBs through 5.1 innings.  I still think he has elite stuff, with three potential plus pitches, but it’s all meaningless if he can’t learn to harness it.

Lmao. It is definitely not too early to write off Burdi. The dude is 26 now. The guy can't stay healthy and has terrible command of his stuff.

He is a bust and it is okay to admit it. Lets hope the Sox learned their lesson with him. Using a first round pick on a college reliever is not something competent front offices do.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Lmao. It is definitely not too early to write off Burdi. The dude is 26 now. The guy can't stay healthy and has terrible command of his stuff.

He is a bust and it is okay to admit it. Lets hope the Sox learned their lesson with him. Using a first round pick on a college reliever is not something competent front offices do.

Have you actually seen Burdi’s stuff?  And who cares if a reliever is 26, pitchers break out all the time at advanced ages.  They’re going to give him some rope, especially with a new pitching coach in place who might be able to tap into his vast potential.

[southsider2k5]

42 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Lmao. It is definitely not too early to write off Burdi. The dude is 26 now. The guy can't stay healthy and has terrible command of his stuff.

He is a bust and it is okay to admit it. Lets hope the Sox learned their lesson with him. Using a first round pick on a college reliever is not something competent front offices do.

You have have really been pissed that Mercedes made the roster.

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You have have really been pissed that Mercedes made the roster.

Actually no.  Mercedes and Burdi aren't really comparable either. Burdi was a top 30 pick that the Sox tried to rush through the minors until he started getting injury after injury. Mercedes bid his time in the minors and consistently mashed at all levels. Mercedes should have been in the bigs in 19 and 20 but it is obvious the front office didn't trust him for some reason. Burdi looked terrible last year in his brief cup of coffee. He looks bad right now in AAA as a 26 year old. 

You must have been pissed when Fulmer and  Courtney Hawkins were released.

[southsider2k5]

49 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Actually no.  Mercedes and Burdi aren't really comparable either. Burdi was a top 30 pick that the Sox tried to rush through the minors until he started getting injury after injury. Mercedes bid his time in the minors and consistently mashed at all levels. Mercedes should have been in the bigs in 19 and 20 but it is obvious the front office didn't trust him for some reason. Burdi looked terrible last year in his brief cup of coffee. He looks bad right now in AAA as a 26 year old. 

You must have been pissed when Fulmer and  Courtney Hawkins were released.

A 28 year old who couldn't play defense or make the majors was cool, but a 26 year old who got some run is a bust. I don't believe you for a second. 

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

A 28 year old who couldn't play defense or make the majors was cool, but a 26 year old who got some run is a bust. I don't believe you for a second. 

Believe what? I just said Yermin deserved to be up in 19 instead of Yonder and in 20 instead of the ghost of Edwin. The Sox were tanking and let AJ Reed get at bats instead of Yermin. Pretty bad look for the Sox front office honestly. 

Are you just mad that you can't wear your Fulmer or Hawkins jerseys to Sox Park? Both those guys are only a year older than Burdi lol. 

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, JoeyCoralFanClub said:

Believe what? I just said Yermin deserved to be up in 19 instead of Yonder and in 20 instead of the ghost of Edwin. The Sox were tanking and let AJ Reed get at bats instead of Yermin. Pretty bad look for the Sox front office honestly. 

Are you just mad that you can't wear your Fulmer or Hawkins jerseys to Sox Park? Both those guys are only a year older than Burdi lol. 

So again, you didn't want Mercedes who was older than all 3.

[JoeyCoralFanClub]

19 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So again, you didn't want Mercedes who was older than all 3.

Good lord man. You are right. Zach Burdi is gonna save the bullpen. 

[harkness99]

looking at this bullpen in comparison to most teams ive seen -outside the twins ect.

 

Id say we have one of the weakest bullpens in the american league.

Edited May 23, 2021 by harkness99

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

looking at this bullpen in comparison to most teams ive seen -outside the twins ect.

 

Id say we have one of the weakest bullpens in the american league.

It shouldn't be though. There is tons of talent out there, but for some reason this group can't throw strike 1 anymore. 

[harkness99]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It shouldn't be though. There is tons of talent out there, but for some reason this group can't throw strike 1 anymore. 

is there really a ton of talent? 

 

Bummer has been solid the last few years... Cody was good last year but he is unproven...

Liam is over the hill.

The other guys are a mix of gas cans and unproven players.

If you look at it as a whole - its not that good.

Edited May 23, 2021 by harkness99

[YourWhatHurts]

There is a ton of talent in this bullpen.  If you can't see that then you must not have eyes.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

is there really a ton of talent? 

 

Bummer has been solid the last few years... Cody was good last year but he is unproven...

Liam is over the hill.

The other guys are a mix of gas cans and unproven players.

If you look at it as a whole - its not that good.

The results haven't been good, but the talent is 100% there.

[Bob Sacamano]

I know guys are underperforming to an extent this year but anyone who says Ricky did a bad job managing the pen last year while giving props to LaRussa is fucking insane.

[harkness99]

30 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

There is a ton of talent in this bullpen.  If you can't see that then you must not have eyes.

elaborate for me top to bottom

if you compare our bullpen "talent" with a lot of good teams its not that superior.

Edited May 23, 2021 by harkness99

[Chicago White Sox]

Hendriks has been a huge disappointment, but he also hasn’t been bad.  At a bare minimum, I think we have four quality relievers in Liam, Bummer, Heuer, & Crochet plus whatever Kopech gives you as the swingman.  Those first four guys need to better, but there is no questioning their talent.  We definitely need to add another piece and hope one of the other righties can figure shit out soon.

[YourWhatHurts]

33 minutes ago, harkness99 said:

elaborate for me top to bottom

if you compare our bullpen "talent" with a lot of good teams its not that superior.

Some times players like Sergio Romo and Tyler Clippard put up better numbers than a guy like Codi Heuer, Garret Crochet, Michael Kopech, Liam Hendriks, and Aaron Bummer, but when you watch the second group when they are on, you can think "closer" for every single one of them.  And the first two no matter what the numbers are, you always think "middle reliever."

There is a shitload of talent in the pen.  There is a need for Katz to help get this thing together, but there are some legit weapons in that pen who have all had success before or who are experiencing success now.  That's why I say if you can't see the talent you must not have eyes.  Nobody in that group above is anything close to a lost cause.  Players do struggle here and there during a season.