hogan873 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Ferfucksake. I saw this thread had three pages and thought maybe there was some interesting information. No, it's 2.5 pages of arguing whether Cease is ReyLo-esque trash or not. Back to what started this, it's disappointing that the radio hosts would not only consider the proposal that Cease+ would fetch Joc but actually argue that Joc is possibly worth more. But, getting the thread back on track, it will be interesting to see if the Sox and Cubs engage in talks or even more. A Bryant/Kimbrel package would improve the Sox a lot and give them even more flexibility. Although I definitely could see those guys being traded, I'd be surprised if they went to the Sox. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, ptatc said: I think that was the point as the poster said that the suggestion was to acquire Pederson the Sox would need to give up Cease+. this was what started the conversion/debate/arguement. It was the entire point before Jack went on his entire “Cease sucks” tangent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, hogan873 said: Ferfucksake. I saw this thread had three pages and thought maybe there was some interesting information. No, it's 2.5 pages of arguing whether Cease is ReyLo-esque trash or not. Back to what started this, it's disappointing that the radio hosts would not only consider the proposal that Cease+ would fetch Joc but actually argue that Joc is possibly worth more. But, getting the thread back on track, it will be interesting to see if the Sox and Cubs engage in talks or even more. A Bryant/Kimbrel package would improve the Sox a lot and give them even more flexibility. Although I definitely could see those guys being traded, I'd be surprised if they went to the Sox. I would really be curious to see what the Cubs are looking for in a package like that. Both are on expiring deals and contain a bit under $20 million in payments left this season. Do the Cubs pick up dollars or do they look for return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 hour ago, ShoeLessRob said: Imagine Eloy going back into the ivy at that field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: I’m sorry, but did Bernstein and his co-host just that the price for Joc Pederson would be Cease+. If so, 🤣🤣🤣 Maybe it was justified that she was let go from the Sox Post Game coverage if she really thinks it would cost the Sox more than Cease to get Pederson?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, wegner said: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 51 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Sticky Stuff. That is all. What do you think Gerrit Cole is worth now?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: You literally used the term minimal trade value in your edit. Because I really don't think he's valued as more than a 26 year old failed prospect with 4 years of team control at this point. If he continues what he was doing this spring through the summer and fall, then yeah, he'll start to build value. Bernstein is a Sox fan. I know he works on the Cubs flagship, but he watches the Sox and talks about his Sox fan group chat among his friends on the air all of the time. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 44 minutes ago, HakunaMachado said: I really think joc To the Sox will actually happen!!! Maybe the Cubbies would like Reynaldo Lopez since Jack brought him up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: Because I really don't think he's valued as more than a 26 year old failed prospect with 4 years of team control at this point. If he continues what he was doing this spring through the summer and fall, then yeah, he'll start to build value. That's not how trade value works, but hey, feel free to imagine what ever makes you happy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: That's not how trade value works, but hey, feel free to imagine what ever makes you happy. At some point after making their MLB debut, a player ceases (pun intended) to be a prospect and become more of a known commodity. Pitching can be voodoo, as guys can make mechanical adjustments and turn it around like Giolito did, but human nature is that a player is what his fangraphs page says he is. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: At some point after making your MLB debut, you cease to be a prospect and become more of a known commodity. Pitching can be voodoo, as guys can make mechanical adjustments and turn it around like Giolito did, but human nature is that a player is what his fangraphs page says he is. This is not that point. He does not have a history of failure like you are trying to paint. Dylan Cease still has plenty of trade value, significantly more than shitty rental trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Harold Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: At some point after making your MLB debut, you cease to be a prospect and become more of a known commodity. Pitching can be voodoo, as guys can make mechanical adjustments and turn it around like Giolito did, but human nature is that a player is what his fangraphs page says he is. And Cease's FG page says he's greatly improved this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: This is not that point. He does not have a history of failure like you are trying to paint. Dylan Cease still has plenty of trade value, significantly more than shitty rental trade. If you're arguing that the combination of his stuff and consistent outperformance of his peripherals indicate that he may be figuring it out, then sure, I get it. That's the optimist's point of view. I'm more neutral on Cease at the moment so I get both points of view. Cease's trade value really depends on the pro scouting team, and how they view him. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said: And Cease's FG page says he's greatly improved this year. I'm aware, That's why I've moved from a Cease pessimist to neutral. How much is sticky stuff? That is the question. It will be answered over the 2nd half and playoffs. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Because I really don't think he's valued as more than a 26 year old failed prospect with 4 years of team control at this point. If he continues what he was doing this spring through the summer and fall, then yeah, he'll start to build value. Bernstein is a Sox fan. I know he works on the Cubs flagship, but he watches the Sox and talks about his Sox fan group chat among his friends on the air all of the time. Doesn't matter. He is out to create controversy and drive up ratings. Far too many people take him far too seriously. He and Boers would talk about it on the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: If you're arguing that the combination of his stuff and consistent outperformance of his peripherals indicate that he may be figuring it out, then sure, I get it. That's the optimist's point of view. I'm more neutral on Cease at the moment so I get both points of view. Look, when teams call Rick Hahn, all of them are going to ask about Dylan Cease. They are all going to want to take on that arm and ceiling. No one is valuing him as a failed prospect, otherwise his name wouldn't be coming up in these kind of discussions. They are all looking to add talent like that to their system, and for a good reason. If you don't get that, you don't get it. There isn't much that can be done. If you are more hung up on your biases here than how this stuff actually works, that's a totally different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Look, when teams call Rick Hahn, all of them are going to ask about Dylan Cease. They are all going to want to take on that arm and ceiling. No one is valuing him as a failed prospect, otherwise his name wouldn't be coming up in these kind of discussions. They are all looking to add talent like that to their system, and for a good reason. If you don't get that, you don't get it. There isn't much that can be done. If you are more hung up on your biases here than how this stuff actually works, that's a totally different story. I'm hung up on the fact that this is baseball and sabermetrics work better in this sport than in all of the other ones. The numbers said he was terrible until this year, and then we had the sticky stuff ban. There's not enough data on him without grip enhancement to dismiss either the positive set from the first half or the negative set from 2019-20. I don't necessarily agree that all teams are going to ask about Cease. I think more traditional scouting teams would, and more analytical scouting teams would have him further down the list. I'd imagine teams value players in trade like they do on fangraphs. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: I'm hung up on the fact that this is baseball and sabermetrics work better in this sport than in all of the other ones. The numbers said he was terrible until this year, and then we had the sticky stuff ban. There's not enough data on him without grip enhancement to dismiss either the positive set from the first half or the negative set from 2019-20. i think you are ignoring some information here. Teams will look at the sabermetrics (which technically only works for baseball as its the Society for American Baseball Research) but they also look at talent and results. They will see a pitcher who can throw 98 with a slider, curve and changeup. They are all inconsistent but all coaches think they can fix that. If you ignore the talent, you are only working with half the information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: i think you are ignoring some information here. Teams will look at the sabermetrics (which technically only works for baseball as its the Society for American Baseball Research) but they also look at talent and results. They will see a pitcher who can throw 98 with a slider, curve and changeup. They are all inconsistent but all coaches think they can fix that. If you ignore the talent, you are only working with half the information. I get it. The fact that he throws 98 with wicked breaking stuff is the reason he had any value at all back in March. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I get it. The fact that he throws 98 with wicked breaking stuff is the reason he had any value at all back in March. Yes. So don't ignore that for his trade value as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: Yes. So don't ignore that for his trade value as well. It's really hard to peg. Each team's MLB scouting dept. will view him differently. I'm glad we're actually having a discussion now, which is what I intended to do in the first place. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: It's really hard to peg. Each team's MLB scouting dept. will view him differently. He's got a dynamite fastball and his curveball, slider and changeup can all look good at times. He's gotten better every year. Can't give up on him yet IMO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, wegner said: What do you think Gerrit Cole is worth now?? Honestly, nobody would take his contract on with the sticky stuff ban IMO. Cole is unmovable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) Are there any rumors here? Or just lots of derailment? Edited July 9, 2021 by DirtySox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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