It's time to put Jose out to pasture

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I’m good with it for now. Honestly if you’re not gonna bat Moncada like 7/8th consistently and you think he’s hurt, IL him.

At some point you gotta stop caring about what a guy was ranked as a prospect and actually play the guys are playing well.

It not just about where he was ranked. He has produced really good seasons. Guys at his age don't drop off a cliff like this . It's in there. The question is how to get it out?

[The Kids Can Play]

30 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You can be  mad about it, but Jose 100% has that stature with this franchise.

Even if he did have that clout and it was true...it's not a good or sound baseball decision to not move Jose while the return could be huge! It doesn't make the Sox better going into the future for the next several years! 

The great winning organizations which we haven't found out how to be yet, don't wait until their top players wear down and lose value. The top teams proactively go get something for their stars while they have top value...in order to continue to build and maintain their greatness feeding their farm system. 

For example, look at what the Yankees GM Cashman did back in 2016 to the Cubs. He traded Chapman for four prospects, of which one of them was Gleyber Torres. Oh yeah, after a wink to Chapman and after the season when Chapman was a FA, Cashman resigned him back to the Yankees. Wow, novel idea! Oh that's right...maybe that's why the Yankees are year in and year out, one the best teams in baseball and we are still not in their league. 

Btw, just another example of if Hahn is that blind with tunnel vision on loyalty to aging players, then maybe now for sure, Hahn isn't the right man to get us to the World Series. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Even if he did have that clout and it was true...it's not a good or sound baseball decision to not move Jose while the return could be huge! It doesn't make the Sox better going into the future for the next several years! 

The great winning organizations which we haven't found out how to be yet, don't wait until their top players wear down and lose value. The top teams proactively go get something for their stars while they have top value...in order to continue to build and maintain their greatness feeding their farm system. 

For example, look at what the Yankees GM Cashman did back in 2016 to the Cubs. He traded Chapman for four prospects, of which one of them was Gleyber Torres. Oh yeah, after a wink to Chapman and after the season when Chapman was a FA, Cashman resigned him back to the Yankees. Wow, novel idea! Oh that's right...maybe that's why the Yankees are year in and year out, one the best teams in baseball and we are still not in their league. 

Btw, just another example of if Hahn is that blind with tunnel vision on loyalty to aging players, then maybe now for sure, Hahn isn't the right man to get us to the World Series. 

It's not Hahn.

[Lillian]

For all of you would be GM's, who are speculating on next year's roster: It looks like the best 6 hitters, including next year's free agent Abreu, are:

Anderson, Robert, Abreu, Eloy, Vaughn and Burger. Aside from the fact that 4 of the 6 are really best suited as first basemen, or DH's, what else is wrong with that picture?I'm sure you all know what I think. If you're trying to improve this roster, the biggest need is to substitute one of those 4 guys, with a LH hitting power bat, who can also adequately play a position other than first base. I've been trying to come up with a solution, but frankly, I'm at a loss. Please suggest a feasible and plausible way to solve this problem, in some way other than fixing Moncada and Grandal, which while possible, is not something upon which we should place all of our hopes. 

Maybe they will reconsider Conforto, now that he has had his surgery and should be ready to enter free agency, next year. We could also hope that Colas gets hot enough, to look like next year's right fielder. I wouldn't expect Pollock to be back, at age 35, unless he exercises his player option.  My hope is that Eloy and, or Burger, have a good enough second half that some team would be willing to trade a decent LH Bat, for one of them. If Eloy could come back and hit for power, the way that he did in his first 162 games in the League, he would be a very valuable trade chip. Your thoughts, please.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Lillian

[ChiSox59]

31 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It not just about where he was ranked. He has produced really good seasons. Guys at his age don't drop off a cliff like this . It's in there. The question is how to get it out?

This.  Moncada was a really good player as recently as last season.  He still just has 100 PA, and while they've been awful, its not a hug sample.  You just have to keep running him out there until he figures it out.  Chances aren't great that he just forgot how to play baseball at age 27. 

[Texsox]

Who love handiness more? Tony or Lillian? 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's not Hahn.

I’m perfectly fine with letting Jose go the Konerko route into retirement. Beats the alternative of acquiring a couple minor league prospects that max out at a Leury Garcia profile.

[Lillian]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Who love handiness more? Tony or Lillian? 

 

The key is balance. A good lineup has to have both RH and LH impact hitters. That is something with which almost any baseball savant would agree. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

15 minutes ago, Lillian said:

For all of you would be GM's, who are speculating on next year's roster: It looks like the best 6 hitters, including next year's free agent Abreu, are:

Anderson, Robert, Abreu, Eloy, Vaughn and Burger. Aside from the fact that 4 of the 6 are really best suited as first basemen, or DH's, what else is wrong with that picture?I'm sure you all know what I think. If you're trying to improve this roster, the biggest need is to substitute one of those 4 guys, with a LH hitting power bat, who can also adequately play a position other than first base. I've been trying to come up with a solution, but frankly, I'm at a loss. Please suggest a feasible and plausible way to solve this problem, in some way other than fixing Moncada and Grandal, which while possible, is not something upon which we should place all of our hopes. 

Maybe they will reconsider Conforto, now that he has had his surgery and should be ready to enter free agency, next year. We could also hope that Colas gets hot enough, to look like next year's right fielder. I wouldn't expect Pollock to be back, at age 35, unless he exercises his player option.  My hope is that Eloy and, or Burger, have a good enough second half that some team would be willing to trade a decent LH Bat, for one of them. If Eloy could come back and hit for power, the way that he did in his first 162 games in the League, he would be a very valuable trade chip. Your thoughts, please.

My problem when trying to tackle this dilemma has always been it's impossible to find stats for just left handed hitters. Everywhere I turn for stats you can break hitters down by position but I have never been able to find stats for LHH only. If anyone know a place that does that I would appreciate knowing where it is.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Who love handiness more? Tony or Lillian? 

 

Frankly Lillian is right . It's a huge problem when your LHH are the worst in MLB and it's not even close . You can throw me in that group too because it's amazing in a terrible way that it keeps being ignored by Hahn and company.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, Lillian said:

The key is balance. A good lineup has to have both RH and LH impact hitters. That is something with which almost any baseball savant would agree. 

I think more importantly is balancing the lineup with hitters that can hit both RHP and LHP. It doesn’t matter if you’re a left handed hitter if you can’t hit righties (Sheets) or a switch hitter that’s supposed to help against RHP but isn’t (Grandal/Moncada).

Edited June 14, 2022 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[chitownsportsfan]

15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m perfectly fine with letting Jose go the Konerko route into retirement. Beats the alternative of acquiring a couple minor league prospects that max out at a Leury Garcia profile.

This attitude explains a lot of losses on the South Side the last two decades. Sentiment taking precedence over the cold hard facts of winning in a cut throat business. Frankly it's a Cubs like attitude and one I can't stand. I'm not ragging on you specifically or any other fan because it ain't our job to make these decisions but I am totally ragging on JR and the FO.

The Sox have at least two guys that need to play DH/1B only, arguably 3-4, and you've got an aging, not as productive as he was, but a productive bat that could get you a couple lotto ticket prospects that sometimes hit the jackpot without the team really missing a single beat this year, as you'd slide a guy like Vaughn or Eloy into a more natural position and get similar production.

Edited June 14, 2022 by chitownsportsfan

[Texsox]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Frankly Lillian is right . It's a huge problem when your LHH are the worst in MLB and it's not even close . You can throw me in that group too because it's amazing in a terrible way that it keeps being ignored by Hahn and company.

I agree. I really appreciate that 90% of Lillian's posts include left hand middle of the lineup hitter. I wish the club listen once in the past ten years.

[Lillian]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I think more importantly is balancing the lineup with hitters that can hit both RHP and LHP. It doesn’t matter if you’re a left handed hitter if you can’t hit righties (Sheets) or a switch hitter that’s supposed to help against RHP but isn’t (Grandal/Moncada).

I agree with you, that ideally, your hitters can hit both RH and LH pitching. However, the reality is that most hitters have splits which favor hitting pitchers who throw from the opposite side, from which they bat. Moreover, it's not the only reason that the balance matters. It's more difficult for an opposing pitcher to face a lineup with both LH and RH hitters. They are typically best pitched, with slightly different pitches. Having both in the lineup forces the pitcher to adjust from hitter, to hitter.

[Bob Sacamano]

54 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It not just about where he was ranked. He has produced really good seasons. Guys at his age don't drop off a cliff like this . It's in there. The question is how to get it out?

Yes he has produced. But for the love of god, please don't bat him in the top half of the lineup. Let him figure out as low as possible.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This attitude explains a lot of losses on the South Side the last two decades. Sentiment taking precedence over the cold hard facts of winning in a cut throat business. Frankly it's a Cubs like attitude and one I can't stand. I'm not ragging on you specifically or any other fan because it ain't our job to make these decisions but I am totally ragging on JR and the FO.

The Sox have at least two guys that need to play DH/1B only, arguably 3-4, and you've got an aging, not as productive as he was, but a productive bat that could get you a couple lotto ticket prospects that sometimes hit the jackpot without the team really missing a single beat this year, as you'd slide a guy like Vaughn or Eloy into a more natural position and get similar production.

And yet, this was the same exact sentiment from you and others 3 years ago. Oh god, can you imagine if the Sox had traded him and missed out on his MVP season and production since? Hahn would never have heard the end of it.

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And yet, this was the same exact sentiment from you and others 3 years ago. Oh god, can you imagine if the Sox had traded him and missed out on his MVP season and production since? Hahn would never have heard the end of it.

Yea but that was 3 year ago! Nothing lasts forever. I love Jose but we root for the laundry, do we not? If trading him now increases the chances of good Sox baseball now and in the future why shouldn't we all be for it, from ownership down to the fans?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I think more importantly is balancing the lineup with hitters that can hit both RHP and LHP. It doesn’t matter if you’re a left handed hitter if you can’t hit righties (Sheets) or a switch hitter that’s supposed to help against RHP but isn’t (Grandal/Moncada).

Thank you Rick Hahn. That's been his prevalent attitude and look at what it's done to the offense. You cannot win a championship with your LHH  hitting like minor leaguers playing in the big leagues. It's been beyond abysmal, last in baseball with a huge gap between worst and the next worst team. Championship teams are never the worst in any kind of offensive , pitching or defensive categories.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Thank you Rick Hahn. That's been his prevalent attitude and look at what it's done to the offense. You cannot win a championship with your LHH  hitting like minor leaguers playing in the big leagues. It's been beyond abysmal, last in baseball with a huge gap between worst and the next worst team. Championship teams are never the worst in any kind of offensive , pitching or defensive categories.

Meh. No one predicted this type of downfall for Moncada, Grandal, and Eloy. Those are three guys that had historically hit RHP very well. They can still turn it around this season (once healthy) but needs to happen soon. If they do turn it around, the recent offense that has been quite good over the past 10 days will turn into the great offense everyone expected.

[Bob Sacamano]

30 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This attitude explains a lot of losses on the South Side the last two decades. Sentiment taking precedence over the cold hard facts of winning in a cut throat business. Frankly it's a Cubs like attitude and one I can't stand. I'm not ragging on you specifically or any other fan because it ain't our job to make these decisions but I am totally ragging on JR and the FO.

The Sox have at least two guys that need to play DH/1B only, arguably 3-4, and you've got an aging, not as productive as he was, but a productive bat that could get you a couple lotto ticket prospects that sometimes hit the jackpot without the team really missing a single beat this year, as you'd slide a guy like Vaughn or Eloy into a more natural position and get similar production.

And then when Eloy gets hurt again?

If Abreu's numbers at the end of the year are good, I don't see why you don't sign him to a one-year deal at most.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

36 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Yea but that was 3 year ago! Nothing lasts forever. I love Jose but we root for the laundry, do we not? If trading him now increases the chances of good Sox baseball now and in the future why shouldn't we all be for it, from ownership down to the fans?

He’s still the best hitter on the team just like he was 3 years ago. How do you know trading him now increases the Sox chances of good baseball now and in the future? In fact, I’d say trading him now decreases the Sox chances now and in the future.

[ChiSox59]

51 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

This attitude explains a lot of losses on the South Side the last two decades. Sentiment taking precedence over the cold hard facts of winning in a cut throat business. Frankly it's a Cubs like attitude and one I can't stand. I'm not ragging on you specifically or any other fan because it ain't our job to make these decisions but I am totally ragging on JR and the FO.

The Sox have at least two guys that need to play DH/1B only, arguably 3-4, and you've got an aging, not as productive as he was, but a productive bat that could get you a couple lotto ticket prospects that sometimes hit the jackpot without the team really missing a single beat this year, as you'd slide a guy like Vaughn or Eloy into a more natural position and get similar production.

To say that this team wouldn't miss a single beat without Jose is a pretty enormous stretch.  

[ChiSox59]

58 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I think more importantly is balancing the lineup with hitters that can hit both RHP and LHP. It doesn’t matter if you’re a left handed hitter if you can’t hit righties (Sheets) or a switch hitter that’s supposed to help against RHP but isn’t (Grandal/Moncada).

Weren't you one of the posters constantly championing Sheets this offseason and how the Sox shouldn't spend $ on any actual competent LH hitter because it would block Sheets ABs?  

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

To say that this team wouldn't miss a single beat without Jose is a pretty enormous stretch.  

Haha yea. It’s ridiculous to be frank. Jose is one of the hottest hitters in mlb right now and has been the Sox best hitter over the past few years (TA is right there with him as well).

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Weren't you one of the posters constantly championing Sheets this offseason and how the Sox shouldn't spend $ on any actual competent LH hitter because it would block Sheets ABs?  

Sox had/have enough DH types. I hated the idea of signing another, LH or RH. Besides, what good ones were even available? Everyone was touting Conforto and he didn’t sign with anyone and then got hurt. Avoided that disaster.