Katz? Yes or No?

[Texsox]

Seems like he got the job because he was Giolito's high school coach and as @Balta1701 has pointed out Tony loves friends and family. 

Keuchel went from Cy Young to out of MLB. Injuries left and right. The bullpen can't seem to hold anyone. Is it time to look at Katz as the culprit? 

Do we need a different approach or not his fault? 

[Quin]

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Seems like he got the job because he was Giolito's high school coach and as @Balta1701 has pointed out Tony loves friends and family. 

Keuchel went from Cy Young to out of MLB. Injuries left and right. The bullpen can't seem to hold anyone. Is it time to look at Katz as the culprit? 

Do we need a different approach or not his fault? 

Keuchel is definitely the sticky stuff, I'm not holding that against Katz.

[chw42]

Cease has gotten much better under Katz. Kopech has developed pretty well too. Keuchel was already on the way to sucking and the sticky stuff ban made it worse. 

The bullpen has been overworked and injured. Every game this team has a chance to win is a close game and eventually your bullpen just can't handle that kind of work load. 

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Keuchel is definitely the sticky stuff, I'm not holding that against Katz.

So somewhere there is a AA guy that with sticky stuff could win a Cy Young? I just can't believe that's 100% of the reason. 

[chitownsportsfan]

The only guy on staff I really feel is more useful than detrimental. If we had a staff full of guys as good and analytical as he is the Sox would be much better.

[Tnetennba]

I'm willing to give Katz a pass.  Cease and Kopech look fantastic, as did Rodon last year before his arm fell off.  The pen usage and injuries are out of his control IMO, as is the lack of pitching depth he has to work with.  I put zero blame at his feet, but if they cleaned house and he went too I wouldn't be super upset.

[ptatc]

Better than last year so far.

[HOFHurt35]

While the starting pitchers have been more dominant over the last two seasons, efficiency is a huge concern to me.  We can't get a starter to go 6-7 innings.

 

[Quin]

13 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So somewhere there is a AA guy that with sticky stuff could win a Cy Young? I just can't believe that's 100% of the reason. 

What's more likely: A soft tossing vet who relied on every advantage (including defense) falls apart right when the sticky stuff ban happens OR he continues to look fine in 2021, then just starts listening to the new coach and despite a 9 year career completely collapses?

Dude lost it right when the ban happened, not when Katz got hired. All the other starters improved. It's not rocket science.

[T R U]

All of our good arms are doing fine. There are quite a few arms in our pen that have no business being on an MLB roster. Sometimes you look at a team and they have one of those guys, we seem to have 3,4,5 of them..

I think hes doing a great job.

[T R U]

For example, out team ERA is at 4.14 and that's with Kuechel and Sousa throwing 51 innings of 9.00 ERA

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

While the starting pitchers have been more dominant over the last two seasons, efficiency is a huge concern to me.  We can't get a starter to go 6-7 innings.

 

The lack of a real spring training is killing pitching all over MLB.  It is a slow motion disaster.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

What's more likely: A soft tossing vet who relied on every advantage (including defense) falls apart right when the sticky stuff ban happens OR he continues to look fine in 2021, then just starts listening to the new coach and despite a 9 year career completely collapses?

Dude lost it right when the ban happened, not when Katz got hired. All the other starters improved. It's not rocket science.

[Ding]

[Texsox]

2 minutes ago, Quin said:

What's more likely: A soft tossing vet who relied on every advantage (including defense) falls apart right when the sticky stuff ban happens OR he continues to look fine in 2021, then just starts listening to the new coach and despite a 9 year career completely collapses?

Dude lost it right when the ban happened, not when Katz got hired. All the other starters improved. It's not rocket science.

You're probably right  You'd think there would be a lot more pitchers out of the game after the ban. Ones not even that good with the sticky stuff. 

[The Kids Can Play]

Absolutely Yes! Katz has made Cease, Giolito and Kopeck all pitch better. The bullpen issues are not his fault. That is the fault of the TLR. For the record, there are many articles out there that suggest TLR relied heavily on Dave Duncan for those pitching bullpen decisions and development of the pitching staff. Oh yeah, Dave Duncan isn't there to carry him any longer. There is no doubt in my mind TLR does not listen to Katz or any other coach and makes his own pitching move decisions. Case in point, I realize Lopez has been up and down this year, but when he was lights out yesterday, why in the hell did he only keep him in for 1.1 innings? Lopez is a long reliever and ex-starter. It was ridiculous to not let Lopez pitch longer to save the bullpen and eat up more innings. 

[southsider2k5]

21 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So somewhere there is a AA guy that with sticky stuff could win a Cy Young? I just can't believe that's 100% of the reason. 

There is a reason people cheat.  Look at the difference between Pre and Post Barry Bonds and ask that question again.

[South Side Hit Men]

Definitely helped with the three young starting pitchers. Don't think Keuchel or Lynn really need much work with a pitching coach at this stage of their career, well beyond Keuchel's drop off in velocity and command in 2021/2022. Not sure any coach could help Keuchel at this point.

Bullpen arms are fungible, but the jury is still out in terms of will the success Katz has made with the young starters can also translate to the bullpen. It will take a few more years to evaluate.

I recall four development success stories for Cooper over the past decade (2010-2019 - Aaron Bummer, Nate Jones, Zach Putnam and Sergio Santos). The remaining solid relievers were free agent acquisitions developed by other teams (Soria, Colome, Robertson, Crain, Thornton).

Seasons with SP 10 + starts, Relief Pitchers 25 + Appearances, players with at least one White Sox season under both coaches:

Don Cooper

• Lucas Giolito: 6.13 2018
• Dylan Cease: 5.79 2019; 4.01 2020
• Carlos Rodon: 3.75 2015; 4.04 2016; 4.15 2017; 4.18 2018
• Jose Ruiz: 5.63 2019
• Aaron Bummer: 4.50 2017; 4.26 2018; 2.13 2019 
• Evan Marshall: 2.49 2019

Ethan Katz

• Lucas Giolito: (Offseason Work with Katz after 2018 Season) 3.41 2019; 3.48 2020; 3.53 2021; 3.88 2022
• Dylan Cease: 3.91 2021; 3.14 2022
• Carlos Rodon: 2.37 2021
• Jose Ruiz: 3.05 2021; 5.56 2022
• Aaron Bummer: 3.51 2021
• Evan Marshall: 5.60 2021

[Texsox]

So everything good with pitching is Katz, everything bad is Tony. I like that! 

Hopefully the next manager keeps him. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

So everything good with pitching is Katz, everything bad is Tony. I like that! 

Hopefully the next manager keeps him. 

This is such a waste of time.

[Texsox]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is such a waste of time.

Let's realize it isn't the coaches it's Tony. Katz is doing the best he can with crappy players. Tony is just making it worse by not using them effectively. 

Plus I love high school coaches. 

I also think Keuchel has just broken down. I don't believe even if you allowed him the sticky stuff he would still dominate. Father time caught up with him. 

[ptatc]

12 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Absolutely Yes! Katz has made Cease, Giolito and Kopeck all pitch better. The bullpen issues are not his fault. That is the fault of the TLR. For the record, there are many articles out there that suggest TLR relied heavily on Dave Duncan for those pitching bullpen decisions and development of the pitching staff. Oh yeah, Dave Duncan isn't there to carry him any longer. There is no doubt in my mind TLR does not listen to Katz or any other coach and makes his own pitching move decisions. Case in point, I realize Lopez has been up and down this year, but when he was lights out yesterday, why in the hell did he only keep him in for 1.1 innings? Lopez is a long reliever and ex-starter. It was ridiculous to not let Lopez pitch longer to save the bullpen and eat up more innings. 

I would disagree. TLR relies on Katz just as he relied on Duncan. 

[T R U]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So everything good with pitching is Katz, everything bad is Tony. I like that! 

Hopefully the next manager keeps him. 

If Katz is the one who said to walk Turner on the 1-2 count or keeps throwing Banks and Sousa out there in high leverage situations then obviously my opinion of him would completely change. I am just not so sure thats the case, we have a HOF manager here he knows what hes doing.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Ethan Katz is the only guy on this staff that I hope sticks around long-term. He's definitely not the problem. 

[South Side Hit Men]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Let's realize it isn't the coaches it's Tony. Katz is doing the best he can with crappy players. Tony is just making it worse by not using them effectively. 

Plus I love high school coaches. 

Katz is the only coach on the team with demonstrable success, the one recruited by Lucas and Hahn, not Tony. The rest of his staff were Tony's selections, either new or approved carry-over staff. Catching seems to have regressed under Narron, not sure what Cairo does or is allowed to do. The two success stories so far have been Boston helping Vaughn pick up OF on the fly to start 2021, and the management of Kopech's innings.

Still believe the overall failure of the organization the past decade comes down to lack of development of drafted players, and lack of identification of quality external FAs by the FO beyond Marco Paddy, and that falls on Hahn, not Tony. That said, Tony was brought in to improve fundamentals, focus and approach, but we haven't see improvement beyond the SPs under Katz. Seems like the team is tighter and lacking rhythm based on Tony's endless tweaking of the lineup, his focus on handedness over effectiveness, and his at times puzzling in-game strategery. 

[Texsox]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Katz is the only coach on the team with demonstrable success, the one recruited by Lucas and Hahn, not Tony. The rest of his staff were Tony's selections, either new or approved carry-over staff. Catching seems to have regressed under Narron, not sure what Cairo does or is allowed to do. The two success stories so far have been Boston helping Vaughn pick up OF on the fly to start 2021, and the management of Kopech's innings.

Still believe the overall failure of the organization the past decade comes down to lack of development of drafted players, and lack of identification of quality external FAs by the FO beyond Marco Paddy, and that falls on Hahn, not Tony. That said, Tony was brought in to improve fundamentals, focus and approach, but we haven't see improvement beyond the SPs under Katz. Seems like the team is tighter and lacking rhythm based on Tony's endless tweaking of the lineup, his focus on handedness over effectiveness, and his at times puzzling in-game strategery. 

I must 👍🏼