25 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I respect you, and you know way more about the Sox minor leagues than I ever will, however, this is not entirely correct. Keith Law wrote a piece when the trade was rumored in which scouts from other organizations opined that, were he draft eligible, Tatis Jr. would be 1-1 and they compared him to A-Rod and Griffey.  Somebody knew he was going to be good.  And if the Sox didn't, well, that's even more damning.

This isn’t true. It was months later. 

17 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Tell yourself whatever lets you sleep better at night Rick

That Tatis contract is not something I would want any part of. Far too risky for me. It’s basically fair value if he stays on the field 125 games/year and continues to perform as he has when healthy. If either health or performance deteriorate over the next few years, it’s going to look like an albatross of a contract.

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

That Tatis contract is not something I would want any part of. Far too risky for me. It’s basically fair value if he stays on the field 125 games/year and continues to perform as he has when healthy. If either health or performance deteriorate over the next few years, it’s going to look like an albatross of a contract.

This is a loser's mentality. 

You're trying to win the WS, not the fiscal responsibility award. 

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

This is a loser's mentality. 

You're trying to win the WS, not the fiscal responsibility award. 

The two go hand in hand. Hard to win a WS if you aren’t fiscally responsible (unless you’re the Mets, Yankees or Dodgers of course).

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The two go hand in hand. Hard to win a WS if you aren’t fiscally responsible (unless you’re the Mets, Yankees or Dodgers of course).

There is a reason why the Yankees and Dodgers are leading their respective leagues. Spending money on talent works. Not just at the MLB level but at every level. 

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

31 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

 Making win now moves with a bad system for a very flawed quasi-contender constantly gets you in trouble though. 

This is why I'm nervous about trading what little depth the Sox have right now.

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

There is a reason why the Yankees and Dodgers are leading their respective leagues. Spending money on talent works. Not just at the MLB level but at every level. 

They also spend a TON on drafting, international signings and player development. If the White Sox had a $190m payroll AND poached some drafting and development talent from SF, Cleveland, Tampa, NYY, LA, etc. they'd be in a way better spot.

Just now, almagest said:

They also spend a TON on drafting, international signings and player development. If the White Sox had a $190m payroll AND poached some drafting and development talent from SF, Cleveland, Tampa, NYY, LA, etc. they'd be in a way better spot.

Bingo. 

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

24 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

This isn’t true. It was months later. 

I still don't think the "he never played in games for the sox" gets them off the hook. from the big Athletic profile, Preller was scouting him in Instructs in AZ, and tracked him in extended spring training. It is honestly a bit bizarre that he signed July 2, 2015, and still didn't show up in any games in AZL or DSL by late June.

But this was from the oral history article:

Quote

Later that year, the Padres were scouting the Arizona Instructional League. Tatis Jr., who was on the White Sox’s instructs roster, had indeed grown.

Tatis Jr.: I signed at 6 feet. And then I got to, like, 6-2.

Pete DeYoung, Padres pro scouting director: I definitely recall that they’d played in some instructional league games, which are generally more like simulated scrimmages, to some extent. He got into some action then, and our scout who (was covering) the White Sox — we always put in reports on what we see during instructional league, so he was part of that process then.

We knew he had the bloodlines, so just kind of the way he carried himself was something that we liked. And it was a projectable body with some athleticism and playing in the middle of the diamond. Those are all things that you take note of initially, and then you see the makings of a pretty decent swing and you see some arm strength.

The Padres saw more of Tatis early the next year, when he was in extended spring training.

Preller: Pete did the work with his crew. I knew from my own feel from a few years ago that he was a very interesting player.

Guys change, guys get better, guys get worse, so I think they all kind of complement each other. The amateur scouting, the looks on guys who were amateurs, I think you factor those in. And then definitely the pro side, which kind of gives you a measure of, “Is this guy’s arrow up? Is his arrow constant? Is his arrow down?” I think you put all of that together.

 

Tatis Jr. had yet to play in a professional game when the Padres traded for him on June 4, 2016. (Kevin Abele/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images)

The trade

In a  span of two days before the 2015 season, Preller traded for Matt Kemp, Wil Myers and Justin Upton. One week before spring training, he signed Shields to a four-year, $75-million contract, then a franchise record.

The Padres finished the season with 88 losses. The ensuing winter, Preller traded relievers Craig Kimbrel and Joaquin Benoit for a collection of prospects. He mostly kept the rest of the roster intact as the 2016 season opened, but the front office clearly was looking toward the future.

Early in the season, San Diego opened trade discussions with Chicago. Hoping to contend, the White Sox sought to fortify their rotation. The Padres, meanwhile, were after high-ceiling talent. Their prior looks at Tatis came to mind.

Preller: In our initial conversations, he was a target guy for us. The White Sox indicated that a few of their top guys would’ve been off-limits, and I think we basically indicated that if that was the case, then Tatis was a guy that would have to be in the deal for us if we wanted to do something with James.

We talked about two of their top prospects. They weren’t going to move those guys. And we talked about Tatis as well. You got the sense that he might be the guy they would talk about in the initial conversations, just because he was further away and hadn’t played a game yet.

So it's not like the guy just never ended up in the ball field. He was at their fall instructs, he was at spring training. He clearly had huge growth the end of 2016.

But anyway, it was 6 years ago. Sucks so much though.

21 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

That Tatis contract is not something I would want any part of. Far too risky for me. It’s basically fair value if he stays on the field 125 games/year and continues to perform as he has when healthy. If either health or performance deteriorate over the next few years, it’s going to look like an albatross of a contract.

Them extending him is entirely a different action from them acquiring for Shields in the first place.  Whether the extension, Preller destroyed Hahn in that trade.

This thread has broken the rule often. Shame.

So, anyway, about the Quintana thing…. Don’t.

22 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

There is a reason why the Yankees and Dodgers are leading their respective leagues. Spending money on talent works. Not just at the MLB level but at every level. 

I won’t debate that and this also remains one of the biggest flaws with MLB compared to other major sports

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I won’t debate that and this also remains one of the biggest flaws with MLB compared to other major sports

No, the biggest flaw with MLB compared to other sports is that owners don't care about winning. 

MLB is the only league without a cap, and most leagues have a floor that is 70% of the cap. If we use the CBT($230M)  as a hard cap, then teams would be required to spend $161M on payroll. 

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Them extending him is entirely a different action from them acquiring for Shields in the first place.  Whether the extension, Preller destroyed Hahn in that trade.

Oh yea, no doubt Padres killed that trade at the time. But 12 years from now when his contract ends will it even matter? Will the Padres have won a WS before the Sox? Or even worse, will Tatis Jr. contract actually prevent the Padres from winning a WS because he can’t stay on the field and they’ve reached their payroll limit in large part because of his contract?

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Oh yea, no doubt Padres killed that trade at the time. But 12 years from now when his contract ends will it even matter? Will the Padres have won a WS before the Sox? Or even worse, will Tatis Jr. contract actually prevent the Padres from winning a WS because he can’t stay on the field and they’ve reached their payroll limit in large part because of his contract?

Can we please stop talking about He Who Shall Not Be Named?

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, the biggest flaw with MLB compared to other sports is that owners don't care about winning. 

MLB is the only league without a cap, and most leagues have a floor that is 70% of the cap. If we use the CBT($230M)  as a hard cap, then teams would be required to spend $161M on payroll. 

It’s not that simple but we’ll save that for another thread 

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

There is a reason why the Yankees and Dodgers are leading their respective leagues. Spending money on talent works. Not just at the MLB level but at every level. 

Yes, the reason is they have the most revenue in the league, thus can take those types of chances. Give KC thise revenues and they'll be there too. Unfortunately,  it's not realistic.

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Yes, the reason is they have the most revenue in the league, thus can take those types of chances. Give KC thise revenues and they'll be there too. Unfortunately,  it's not realistic.

No, it's just greedy owners. 

The owners don't want a cap either because they don't have a floor they have to spend to, nor is there revenue sharing. 

Part of what makes the NFL a powerhouse is that they realized early on that league revenue is for everyone. 

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, it's just greedy owners. 

The owners don't want a cap either because they don't have a floor they have to spend to, nor is there revenue sharing. 

Part of what makes the NFL a powerhouse is that they realized early on that league revenue is for everyone. 

How does that make the NFL a powerhouse?

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How does that make the NFL a powerhouse?

They've been doing it for 30 years. 

It drives franchise values up and basically guarantees profitability to every owner. 

It also breeds stability. 

Edited July 27, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

for the love of god do  not go and get quintana and think we are improving the team

1 hour ago, almagest said:

This is why I'm nervous about trading what little depth the Sox have right now.

There’s a clear path to the division title this year though. I don’t believe there really was in 2016 

1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

There’s a clear path to the division title this year though. I don’t believe there really was in 2016 

For sure. I don’t know if they’ll be able to make much of a playoff dent unless they get super hot, though.

Fegan and the Pirates Athletic guy mull over a Quintana trade.

Quote

The deal: Quintana for 3B Jake Burger and High-A right-hander Cristian Mena

Burger saved the White Sox’s bacon several times this season, but a healthy version of their roster has a big at-bat crunch for right-handed corner types who are weaker against right-handed pitching, and this has not been a good year for Burger’s defensive versatility prospects. Mena is having a breakout season with a clear feel for a plus curveball at age 19, but will need to add strength and velocity to take it to the next level, which is a bit more of a long-term project.

These losses — the cost of acquiring any starters at the deadline — would sting and be somewhat controversial since it seems unlikely the Sox would task Quintana with a playoff start. They also currently have five healthy starters that don’t figure to be moved or dropped anytime soon. But there are too many risk factors to ride out the final two months with just a Davis Martin-shaped safety net. One scout called this package “a hair above market value, which is probably what’s needed,” which I took as an endorsement, a little judgmental, and a sign they would like to be done fielding my questions about this.

But I like Mena a lot. ?

Edited July 28, 20223 yr by DirtySox