8/12 White Sox vs Brewers

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, wegner said:

Just got off my flight....another 1 run loss I see.

Quick look at box score....looks like a long time to leave Scholtens and Shaw first out of bullpen again?!??

They probably would have lost anyway, but Pedros bullpen management delivered the exact result everyone was watching would have predicted. I try to think of one thing he is good at as a manager, and come up.empty.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Dick Allen

[TitoMB345]

Fire Grifol

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They probably would have lost anyway, but Pedros bullpen management delivered the exact result everyone was watching would have predicted. I try to think of one thing he is good at as a manager, and come up.empty.

He’s good at taking some of the heat off Hahn

[South Side Hit Men]

13 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I prefer four total divisions, but owners would likely prefer eight. Zero need for wildcards beyond greed with 8 playoff teams.

• Intra-division: 14 x 3 (42)
• Intra-league 6 X 12 (72)
• Interleague 3 X 16 (48)
• Playoffs LDS (#1 vs. #4  #2 vs. #3 Division Winners, Best of Seven)

Italics = Expansion; Bold Italics Underline = League Change

Time Zones (E, C, M, Az, P)

American League

• East (E): Boston; Montreal; New York; Toronto
• Central (E & C): Baltimore; Chicago; Cleveland; Detroit
• Great Plains (C): Houston; Kansas City; Minnesota; Texas
• West (M & P): Anaheim; Colorado; Oakland; Seattle

National League

• East (E): New York; Philadelphia; Pittsburgh; Washington
• South (E): Atlanta; Cincinnati; Miami; Tampa Bay
• Central (C): Chicago; Milwaukee; Nashville; Saint Louis
• West (AZ & P): Arizona; Los Angeles; San Diego; San Francisco

This is my eight team division proposal, and revised four team divisions quoted above.

American League

 

• East (E & C): Baltimore; Boston; Chicago; Cleveland; Detroit; Montreal; New York; Toronto
• West (C, M & P): Anaheim; Colorado; Houston; Kansas City; Minnesota; Oakland; Seattle; Texas

National League

• East (E): Atlanta; Miami; Nashville; New York; Philadelphia; Pittsburgh; Tampa Bay; Washington
• West (C AZ & P): Arizona; Chicago; Cincinnati; Los Angeles; Milwaukee; Saint Louis; San Diego; San Francisco 

 

[South Side Hit Men]

21 minutes ago, T R U said:

Should be top 2 from each division for a total of 8 per league

Why even play a 162 game season. It's garbage, just seeding teams with a pulse through the several teams actually trying to win. Just go with what the owners want:

Jerry Reinsdorf Max Profits Format:

• 28 Game World Baseball Classic February 20 - March 25 (Replaces Spring Training)
• 162 Game Interleague Rival Premium Game Ticket "Season" March 30 - Labor Day (White Sox at Cubs for 82 Games, Cubs at White Sox for 82 Games).
• All Star Game Week (Seniors Game, HOF Ceremony, Home Run Derby, Skills Competition, Futures Game, All Star Game) July 5 - 11
• 32 Team Play In Series (Best of seven) September 10 - 18
• 16 Team Wild Card Series (Best of seven) September 20 - 30
• 8 Team League Division Series (Best of nine games) October 1 - 15
• 4 Team League Championship Series (Best of nine games) October 20 - November 5
• World Series (Best of nine games) November 10 - Black Friday

[nrockway]

51 minutes ago, dohnut said:

The number of folks here pining for “off days” for Robert is comical. Over the course of a 2h 30m game, he probably exerts himself for a total of 3 minutes or less. He can play everyday. 

he plays a lot more than a typical baseball player. do you ever want a weekend off from your job? one should consider how to keep a 26-year-old's focus for the next decade...millions of dollars is apparently not enough for athletes. beyond that, he deserves a fuckin day off. you probably do too.

Edited August 13, 2023 by nrockway

[South Side Hit Men]

Not quite 30K tonight (29,851), even with the free jerseys honoring Pinky Tuscadero and perfect weather. They did break 30K paid yesterday by 59, so congratulations Jerry on selling carrots to Milwaukee natives.

If the White Sox were a better organization, the Brewers would have opted to stay in the American League to face the White Sox and Twins regularly.

The remaining schedule will not draw beyond a few more promotional dates. They are also stuck with two weekday games and going up against two Bears games.

* = Day Game

• M T W* Seattle (8/21-8/23) 
• Th F S S* Oakland (8/24-8/27) - 8/26 Dylan Cease Bobblehead (Adults only - sponsored by Binny's)
• F S S* Detroit (9/1-9/3) - 9/1 Last Summer Fireworks & 9/2 Los White Sox Soccer Jersey
• M T W Kansas City (9/11-9/13) - 9/13 Dog Day & Free Tee Shirts
• Th F S S* Minnesota (9/14-9/17) - 9/16 - Halfway to Saint Patricks & Southside Irish Jerseys Bears at Tampa Bay Noon
• M T W* Arizona (9/25-9/27)
• F S S* San Diego (9/29 - 10/1) - 9/30 La Catrina Dia de los Muertos Bobblehead Denver at Bears Noon

[nrockway]

56 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I prefer four total divisions, but owners would likely prefer eight. Zero need for wildcards beyond greed with 8 playoff teams.

• Intra-division: 14 x 3 (42)
• Intra-league 6 X 12 (72)
• Interleague 3 X 16 (48)
• Playoffs LDS (#1 vs. #4  #2 vs. #3 Division Winners, Best of Seven)

Italics = Expansion; Bold Italics Underline = League Change

Time Zones (E, C, M, Az, P)

American League

• East (E😞 Boston; Cleveland; New York; Toronto
• South (E & C😞 Houston; Miami; Tampa Bay; Texas
• Midwest (E & C😞 Chicago; Detroit; Kansas City; Minnesota
• West (M & P😞 Anaheim; Colorado; Oakland; Seattle

National League

• East (E😞 Montreal; New York; Philadelphia; Pittsburgh
• South (E & C😞 Atlanta; Baltimore; Nashville; Washington
• Midwest (E & C😞 Chicago; Cincinnati; Milwaukee; Saint Louis
• West (AZ & P😞 Arizona; Los Angeles; San Diego; San Francisco

This is an excellent idea (especially adding back Montreal...otherwise I'd pick Charlotte before Nashville 😅) but I think you run into the same problem with the Midwest division. I don't think it's a popular opinion, but I'd probably prefer to see all the divisions (regions of the country) represented on a regular basis than strictly the "best" teams which are probably the teams that are based in financially-sound, more appealing (for whatever reason...weather, money, things the midwest can't offer) markets. I think a salary cap begins to address that. It's an "owner-friendly" term but I bet it would be better for the sport and could be balanced out with a million different concessions to give to the players union. I tend to think arbitration and delayed free agency is the big thing for the players union to go after.

My thinking is that this regional disparity exists more in the MLB than in other American pro leagues. I only watch basketball aside from baseball, but the financial parity in the NBA is pretty great (even if the product gets worse year by year) and the incentives given to players to re-sign long term with their small market team are unmatched by other leagues as far as I know. Look no further than how the Nuggets perform relative to the Rockies. Prudent drafting and trading (good management) won them a championship because they were able to pay more than big market teams to keep Jokic and their other free agents around -- while still being able to go out and sign effective players with limited cap space. The Nuggets won because Jokic is an all-time great but you also have to give a lot of credit to the organization for finding him in the second round and then building an effective team around him, despite injuries. The Bulls and Nuggets made similar trades around the same time with the Magic for their big time pieces and the Nuggets got their championship starter for scraps while the Bulls mortgaged their future for a guy who simply wasn't good enough (even if I like Vucevic). I think you see in the NBA that you can get lucky and win by having the #1 pick in a strong draft or you can build a contender through effective management. Either way, the parameters are pretty much the same for each team. If an NBA owner wants to act like John Fisher or Robert Nutting, the salary floor means he has to pay up regardless. Then the matter of a 'cheap' owner vs a regular one becomes a matter of if they're willing to pay the luxury tax rather than if they're willing to fill out the major league roster with MLB-caliber players. 

In an MLB-type environment, Jokic is probably playing for the Knicks or Lakers. The Knicks should be like the Yankees but they're constantly mismanaged and are constantly bad; as it should be. The NBA's financial system seems to work pretty well, but it's not one-to-one because one player in basketball can be the difference maker between a struggling team and a championship contender. Still, the best teams tend to perform well regardless of where they're based. Watch for Oklahoma City and Utah to be championship contenders for years to come 

This post became sort of rambly and off-topic, but I guess it lends credence to the fact that the Sox are a lot worse consistently than they ought to be. Under the current framework of the MLB, there's basically no excuse for a Chicago team to be outperformed by all these other rustbelt cities in the division. It's doubly true for the Cubs, the team that the majority actually likes, but they won a WS recently so they get a break. 

[nrockway]

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Not quite 30K tonight (29,851), even with the free jerseys honoring Pinky Tuscadero and perfect weather. They did break 30K paid yesterday by 59, so congratulations Jerry on selling carrots to Milwaukee natives.

If the White Sox were a better organization, the Brewers would have opted to stay in the American League to face the White Sox and Twins regularly.

The remaining schedule will not draw beyond a few more promotional dates. They are also stuck with two weekday games and going up against two Bears games.

* = Day Game

• M T W* Seattle (8/21-8/23) 
• Th F S S* Oakland (8/24-8/27) - 8/26 Dylan Cease Bobblehead (Adults only - sponsored by Binny's)
• F S S* Detroit (9/1-9/3) - 9/1 Last Summer Fireworks & 9/2 Los White Sox Soccer Jersey
• M T W Kansas City (9/11-9/13) - 9/13 Dog Day & Free Tee Shirts
• Th F S S* Minnesota (9/14-9/17) - 9/16 - Halfway to Saint Patricks & Southside Irish Jerseys Bears at Tampa Bay Noon
• M T W* Arizona (9/25-9/27)
• F S S* San Diego (9/29 - 10/1) - 9/30 La Catrina Dia de los Muertos Bobblehead Denver at Bears Noon

Speaking of promotional dates, I'm really bummed I missed that Italian heritage night. Not because I have Italian heritage but because those were some really cool hats they gave away.

[nrockway]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Except for the random placement of Astros in the West.

And of course in between Dallas and Houston you have one of the trendiest areas in the country. 

Houston is basically Chicago with a shoreline. My argument doesn't apply to Chicago, it actually makes the Sox and Cubs look even worse. DFW is where the Sox will move once Jerry dies. That metro area can handle 2 teams better than Chicago will be able to.

[South Side Hit Men]

39 minutes ago, nrockway said:

This is an excellent idea (especially adding back Montreal...otherwise I'd pick Charlotte before Nashville 😅) but I think you run into the same problem with the Midwest division. I don't think it's a popular opinion, but I'd probably prefer to see all the divisions (regions of the country) represented on a regular basis than strictly the "best" teams which are probably the teams that are based in financially-sound, more appealing (for whatever reason...weather, money, things the midwest can't offer) markets. I think a salary cap begins to address that. It's an "owner-friendly" term but I bet it would be better for the sport and could be balanced out with a million different concessions to give to the players union. I tend to think arbitration and delayed free agency is the big thing for the players union to go after.

My thinking is that this regional disparity exists more in the MLB than in other American pro leagues. I only watch basketball aside from baseball, but the financial parity in the NBA is pretty great (even if the product gets worse year by year) and the incentives given to players to re-sign long term with their small market team are unmatched by other leagues as far as I know. Look no further than how the Nuggets perform relative to the Rockies. Prudent drafting and trading (good management) won them a championship because they were able to pay more than big market teams to keep Jokic and their other free agents around -- while still being able to go out and sign effective players with limited cap space. The Nuggets won because Jokic is an all-time great but you also have to give a lot of credit to the organization for finding him in the second round and then building an effective team around him, despite injuries. The Bulls and Nuggets made similar trades around the same time with the Magic for their big time pieces and the Nuggets got their championship starter for scraps while the Bulls mortgaged their future for a guy who simply wasn't good enough (even if I like Vucevic). I think you see in the NBA that you can get lucky and win by having the #1 pick in a strong draft or you can build a contender through effective management. Either way, the parameters are pretty much the same for each team. If an NBA owner wants to act like John Fisher or Robert Nutting, the salary floor means he has to pay up regardless. Then the matter of a 'cheap' owner vs a regular one becomes a matter of if they're willing to pay the luxury tax rather than if they're willing to fill out the major league roster with MLB-caliber players. 

In an MLB-type environment, Jokic is probably playing for the Knicks or Lakers. The Knicks should be like the Yankees but they're constantly mismanaged and are constantly bad; as it should be. The NBA's financial system seems to work pretty well, but it's not one-to-one because one player in basketball can be the difference maker between a struggling team and a championship contender. Still, the best teams tend to perform well regardless of where they're based. Watch for Oklahoma City and Utah to be championship contenders for years to come 

This post became sort of rambly and off-topic, but I guess it lends credence to the fact that the Sox are a lot worse consistently than they ought to be. Under the current framework of the MLB, there's basically no excuse for a Chicago team to be outperformed by all these other rustbelt cities in the division. It's doubly true for the Cubs, the team that the majority actually likes, but they won a WS recently so they get a break. 

The NBA and NFL are primarily national television contract driven leagues. Their payrolls and revenue have a much narrower window than MLB or even the NHL.

Can't have a salary cap unless the owners share everything, and they keep building revenue sources not subject to sharing (real estate). The Yankees haven't won or appeared in a World Series since 2009, the Mets 2015 (1986 last win); Anaheim once ever (2002).

It comes down to owners willing to actually compete, and having a competent front office to do so. I don't believe geography doesn't give the teams the significant advantage you are stating.

The non coastal cities were well represented the past decade plus (2010-2022), covering half (13 of 26) of World Series teams:

• World Series Winners (5): Saint Louis (2011); Kansas City (2015); Chicago (2016); Houston (2017 & 2022)
• World Series Losers (8): Texas (2010 & 2011); Detroit (2012); Saint Louis (2013); Kansas City (2014); Cleveland (2016); Houston (2019 & 2021)

37 minutes ago, nrockway said:

Houston is basically Chicago with a shoreline. My argument doesn't apply to Chicago, it actually makes the Sox and Cubs look even worse. DFW is where the Sox will move once Jerry dies. That metro area can handle 2 teams better than Chicago will be able to.

Chicago >>> Houston

Plus Dallas already has a team, they aren't getting two. The Sox are staying in Chicago, Baltimore (to Nashville) and Oakland (to Las Vegas) are the likely two possible moves over the next few decades.

[greg775]

Damn, Sox lose another home game. What a pathetic season. Absolutely no highlights in terms of team ball. Robert is the only bright spot. ... We better have a mild winter, cause we have nothing to look forward to in April again. Sox will stink again next year.

I'm pretty sure I'll be done in April. I'll give up my mlb subscription finally and my lifelong Sox fandom will be over. So sad.

[nrockway]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The NBA and NFL are primarily national television contract driven leagues. Their payrolls and revenue have a much narrower window than MLB or even the NHL.

Can't have a salary cap unless the owners share everything, and they keep building revenue sources not subject to sharing (real estate). The Yankees haven't won or appeared in a World Series since 2009, the Mets 2015 (1986 last win); Anaheim once ever (2002).

It comes down to owners willing to actually compete, and having a competent front office to do so. I don't believe geography doesn't give the teams the significant advantage you are stating.

The non coastal cities were well represented the past decade plus (2010-2022), covering half (13 of 26) of World Series teams:

• World Series Winners (5): Saint Louis (2011); Kansas City (2015); Chicago (2016); Houston (2017 & 2022)
• World Series Losers (8): Texas (2010 & 2011); Detroit (2012); Saint Louis (2013); Kansas City (2014); Cleveland (2016); Houston (2019 & 2021)

Chicago >>> Houston

Plus Dallas already has a team, they aren't getting two. The Sox are staying in Chicago, Baltimore (to Nashville) and Oakland (to Las Vegas) are the likely two possible moves over the next few decades.

I guess my thinking is more derived from the fact that pretty much every baseball fan thinks both Central divisions are a joke. I could look up the statistics on how both Central divisions have performed in terms of W/L over the years, but it's not easily accessible without doing the analysis myself and I already spend too much time writing sports forum posts, but I recall that the Central performs demonstrably worse than the other divisions in the aggregate. I feel as though W/L is a better determiner than World Series 

 

Though, regardless of division or W/L, the disparity in payroll is absurd and it strikes me as unfair that some teams have 300 million dollars of wiggle room to spend on free agents -- so then, how much can they spend on front office staff to live in a desirable area like Florida or California? This applies to less desirable coastal cities like Baltimore who essentially just so happened to strike gold in their farm system (and won't pay them) or Tampa. Still, the bottom payroll franchises are big jokes and, aside from a few franchises like Washington, they're not rebuilding they're actually trying to win. Salary cap feels like a no-brainer idea...maybe it isn't all regional but I feel like the perception people have of the Central is the same perception people have of the Midwest in general. It offends me!

 

Great song I've never heard by the way, thanks for sharing. Makes me feel prideful, there really isn't a finer place!!!! only issue is they're driving SOUTH to reach downtown 

Edited August 13, 2023 by nrockway

[Stinky Stanky]

8 hours ago, soxfaninfl said:

Game has been a clinic on good and bad managing.

Great bullpens make great managers. The opposite is also true. 

[Dick Allen]

8 hours ago, fathom said:

He’s good at taking some of the heat off Hahn

I’m some ways, very true. But Hahn hired this failure. Google Pedro’s introductory press conference, and watch Hahn gush over this failure. I don’t personally know Rick Hahn and I am embarrassed for him. This miss is probably even more of a miss than bringing back LaRussa. The next time Pedro delivers on anything he said in his press conference will be the first. I have a bad feeling the Sox don’t see this and will let him destroy even more next year.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Dick Allen

[oldsox]

I don't know why they even bother to have introductory Pressers.  They all say the same thing. And then there was the Bears Coach who had to read his tirade.  Geesh.

[soxfaninfl]

4 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Great bullpens make great managers. The opposite is also true. 

While this is a good point and I won’t disagree, there is more in play than just a bad Sox bullpen. A manager just can’t let his pitcher stand out there, gassed, and hanging breaking stuff the third time through the order. I had no problem with Scholtens going out for the 7th but he needed to be pulled after giving up a runner. Scholtens had every right to feel good about his performance.

It’s called team morale and as we all know this team has taken more than a few hits this year and in the past week specifically.  A manager can also help build confidence by doing the little things to help win ballgames. If the fans feel the frustration, what do you think the dugout feels?

Lastly, it wasn’t just the bullpen usage. Pedro also seems to love pinch runners which has caused some glaring mismatches - last night, Colas against an elite lefty specialist and Trace against Williams. Too often, Pedro just does put this team in a position to win.

Sure, maybe he doesn’t have the bullpen and bench to get those desired results but a manager never will if he doesn’t do more than just sit there and hope.

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, nrockway said:

I guess my thinking is more derived from the fact that pretty much every baseball fan thinks both Central divisions are a joke. I could look up the statistics on how both Central divisions have performed in terms of W/L over the years, but it's not easily accessible without doing the analysis myself and I already spend too much time writing sports forum posts, but I recall that the Central performs demonstrably worse than the other divisions in the aggregate. I feel as though W/L is a better determiner than World Series 

 

Though, regardless of division or W/L, the disparity in payroll is absurd and it strikes me as unfair that some teams have 300 million dollars of wiggle room to spend on free agents -- so then, how much can they spend on front office staff to live in a desirable area like Florida or California? This applies to less desirable coastal cities like Baltimore who essentially just so happened to strike gold in their farm system (and won't pay them) or Tampa. Still, the bottom payroll franchises are big jokes and, aside from a few franchises like Washington, they're not rebuilding they're actually trying to win. Salary cap feels like a no-brainer idea...maybe it isn't all regional but I feel like the perception people have of the Central is the same perception people have of the Midwest in general. It offends me!

 

Great song I've never heard by the way, thanks for sharing. Makes me feel prideful, there really isn't a finer place!!!! only issue is they're driving SOUTH to reach downtown 

A big part of this is Minnesota losing 18 consecutive in the post season or maybe it’s just 18 in a row to the Yankees in the playoffs, but the number itself is embarrassingly bad.

CLE is the only team to have advanced at all since the KC and Cleve WS teams from 2014-16.  Detroit in 2011.

Then there was 2004-2006 when the Central was arguably the best as well.

Then of course there was that great Indians’ team selling out Jacobs from mid 90s through 2001/2002 or whatever it was.

[soxfaninfl]

4 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by soxfaninfl

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, soxfaninfl said:

While this is a good point and I won’t disagree, there is more in play than just a bad Sox bullpen. A manager just can’t let his pitcher stand out there, gassed, and hanging breaking stuff the third time through the order. I had no problem with Scholtens going out for the 7th but he needed to be pulled after giving up a runner. Scholtens had every right to feel good about his performance.

It’s called team morale and as we all know this team has taken more than a few hits this year and in the past week specifically.  A manager can also help build confidence by doing the little things to help win ballgames. If the fans feel the frustration, what do you think the dugout feels?

Lastly, it wasn’t just the bullpen usage. Pedro also seems to love pinch runners which has caused some glaring mismatches - last night, Colas against an elite lefty specialist and Trace against Williams. Too often, Pedro just does put this team in a position to win.

Sure, maybe he doesn’t have the bullpen and bench to get those desired results but a manager never will if he doesn’t do more than just sit there and hope.

At the very least, Scholtens should have been given no more than two batters to prevent him from taking an individual loss on his record.

When you decimate a bullpen like they have (along with the Hendriks injury), there are obviously consequences…and having that shaky feeling at the end of a game just erodes a team’s overall confidence.  Look no further than CLE this year versus last year.

And that’s WITH a very very good manager in Francona versus a Bottom 2-3 manager and a Bottom 2-3 GM.

Ironically, Grifol is still talking about this team “learning how to win” games like these last two nights.  That’s fine with a very young team like say the Orioles or Guardians or Reds.  But the White Sox don’t or shouldn’t have that excuse any longer.