WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Ortiz is older than both Jordan Westburg and Gunnar Henderson and the Orioles have nowhere to play him. No wonder these Orioles fans have such a boner to trade him as the premier prospect in any deal. Good luck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 17 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said: 27 ….boy your pulling it out of your A$$ Talk about a double standard…. Ortiz is better than any prospect in your system but Montgomery…..But he’s 26 (really 25) , But hes a glove first player, But he’s not a headliner, but your players would slot #9 or higher even though they should be rated with players with a similar grade., See what I just did ? You seem to be struggling with this. Let me try again - Ortiz is much less valuable to a team like the White Sox than he is to the Orioles or a team in their competitive window that's missing a SS because: He is turning 26 midway through next season and his MLB clock started. By the time the White Sox are getting competitive again he'll be like 29 and in his arb years. To add to that, the White Sox top prospect (who is ranked much higher than Ortiz) is a 22 year old SS, and he is likely coming up midway through this year. This means Ortiz shifts to 2B or 3B. 3B is currently blocked by Yoan Moncada and his giant salary. The White Sox are for sure playing him at 3B this year, hopefully recouping some trade value if he plays well. Ortiz shifts to 2B then, where he is far less valuable. Ortiz has a lower offensive ceiling and very real risk he will not hit in the majors, even given his recent offensive improvements. He is an excellent defender at a premium position, but that defense (and offensive profile) does not play nearly as well at 3B or 2B. He is not a headliner the White Sox should accept. He definitely has value as a second piece but the Orioles would probably be better off keeping him or trading him to someone who needs a SS in this case. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frobby Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 20 minutes ago, fathom said: Not a single team in baseball would want Ortiz over Schultz I’m not that familiar with Schultz. Why do you say that? I see Fangraphs in its midseason updates graded Schultz as a 45, while Ortiz was a 50. MLB has Ortiz higher. So what makes you so sure no team would prefer Ortiz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty22hotty Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Ortiz has zero value to the sox since he's just a 3 years younger nicky lopez 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, Frobby said: I’m not that familiar with Schultz. Why do you say that? I see Fangraphs in its midseason updates graded Schultz as a 45, while Ortiz was a 50. MLB has Ortiz higher. So what makes you so sure no team would prefer Ortiz? Schultz is a potential top of the rotation left handed starter. Here's Baseball America's writeup, which has him #31: Quote BA Grade/Risk: 60/Very High. Track Record: The White Sox stayed close to home when they drafted Schultz 26th overall in 2022, signing the towering Chicago-area high school product for full slot value of $2.8 million. While his time on the mound has been limited to 27 innings since signing, Schultz has flashed tantalizing, mostly unhittable stuff. His 2023 pro debut was delayed until June 2 by a flexor strain. It wasn’t until his seventh start a month and a half later that he finally gave up a run, the only game among his 10 starts in which he yielded an earned run. He spent the entire season at Low-A Kannapolis, striking out 38 batters while walking just six. Scouting Report: Schultz’s devastating mid-90s fastball touches the high 90s. It is difficult for hitters to square up because of the extreme deception provided by his low three-quarters arm slot and the way he hides the ball. It explodes on hitters with run and sink to generate whiffs up in the zone. Schultz’s fastball has double-plus potential, as does his wipeout slider that averages 79-80 mph with late, hard movement and a high spin rate. He doesn’t use his changeup much, but it’s a potentially above-average pitch in the mid 80s with late movement and down action. He uses it to keep righthanded hitters from sitting on his slider. Using a modified windup, Schultz starts from what looks like a stretch position before going into a small side-rocker step, which helps keep his long levers in sync. He coordinates his tall frame and long levers well, throwing a lot of strikes and profiling as a starter. The Future: Schultz has the components of a top-of-the rotation starter. He will continue to move through the system slowly, with his pitch counts being carefully controlled. He’ll likely head to High-A Winston-Salem as a 20-year-old to start the 2024 season. Scouting Grades: Fastball: 60 | Slider: 60 | Changeup: 55 | Control: 60 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 26 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said: 27 ….boy your pulling it out of your A$$ Talk about a double standard…. Ortiz is better than any prospect in your system but Montgomery…..But he’s 26 (really 25) , But hes a glove first player, But he’s not a headliner, but your players would slot #9 or higher even though they should be rated with players with a similar grade., See what I just did ? This is just silly. What makes a better prospect? Is a high variance, high ceiling guy more valuable than a low ceiling, high floor guy? Is an older prospect who requires less development time in the majors but who might start regressing during a team’s control period more or less valuable than a younger, more raw prospect that might take a full year or two before being productive? How much value does MLB Pipeline place on a prospect’s proximity to the majors? How do they account for the inherent injury risk of pitchers vs. position players? If you are going to use these rankings as black & white, it would at least be good to understand these unwritten rules on how we’re supposed to value prospects. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Frobby said: I’m not that familiar with Schultz. Why do you say that? I see Fangraphs in its midseason updates graded Schultz as a 45, while Ortiz was a 50. MLB has Ortiz higher. So what makes you so sure no team would prefer Ortiz? A 20 year old, 6’9” top lefty starting pitching prospect with Randy Johnson comps versus an over-the-hill age 25.5 infield “prospect” who still has yet to prove himself in the majors. Frobby, if Ortiz was only 22 years old right now, do you think he would have more value? I think he would have a lot more value, assuming he was putting up the same numbers as he has recently. Edited January 6 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frobby Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said: A 20 year old top lefty starting pitching prospect over an over-the-hill age 25.5 infielder who has yet to prove himself. almagest did a better job of making the case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Frobby said: almagest did a better job of making the case. I updated my post since you quoted me, but I’m glad he did. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 7 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: A 20 year old, 6’9” top lefty starting pitching prospect with Randy Johnson comps versus an over-the-hill age 25.5 infield “prospect” who still has yet to prove himself in the majors. Frobby, if Ortiz was only 22 years old right now, do you think he would have more value? I think he would have a lot more value, assuming he was putting up the same numbers as he has recently. All the O's fans here would say he's completely off limits 😆 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 10 minutes ago, Frobby said: I’m not that familiar with Schultz. Why do you say that? I see Fangraphs in its midseason updates graded Schultz as a 45, while Ortiz was a 50. MLB has Ortiz higher. So what makes you so sure no team would prefer Ortiz? Prospect lists are incredibly volatile and looking at one from even a few months ago is already vastly outdated. For example, Noah Schultz jumped all the way up to 31st on BA’s mid-season list. I’d wager he’ll be a 55 FV prospect or higher when Fangraphs updates their White Sox list. While he’s still far off and a lot could go wrong, we’re talking about truly premium stuff & ace like potential. Even a GM in need of a major league ready SS would take Schultz over Ortiz because they’d be able to flip him for something better one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pale Sox Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Prospect lists are fun, but I sure hope Getz doesn’t give a s%*# about them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Orioles fans trying hard to trade Ortiz before his current #50 overall ranking on the MLB’s top 100 prospects list gets updated for 2024 and he falls to the bottom cuz he’s aged out. 🤣 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirmin' for Yermin Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Prospect lists are incredibly volatile and looking at one from even a few months ago is already vastly outdated. For example, Noah Schultz jumped all the way up to 31st on BA’s mid-season list. I’d wager he’ll be a 55 FV prospect or higher when Fangraphs updates their White Sox list. While he’s still far off and a lot could go wrong, we’re talking about truly premium stuff & ace like potential. Even a GM in need of a major league ready SS would take Schultz over Ortiz because they’d be able to flip him for something better one way or the other. I bet many teams would select Shultz over Mayo and basallo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 I think Ortiz is a fairly nice prospect and for a while I really thought a Kjerstad + Ortiz + 3rd piece (~45 FV guy) was a win-win trade for both sides. But upon further reflection, the age issue does bother me quite a bit and I don’t see him having a big ceiling. I think there is a chance, even a good one, that he could become a 2 win SS for like a four year stretch. But that doesn’t just move the needle for us given where we’re currently at and I’d rather have someone like Beavers who could see his status really elevate with a strong 2024 season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 5 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: I bet many teams would select Shultz over Mayo and basallo I would disagree if Mayo was a legit defensive 3B and Basallo was a legit defense catcher, but I don’t know if this is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think Ortiz is a fairly nice prospect and for a while I really thought a Kjerstad + Ortiz + 3rd piece (~45 FV guy) was a win-win trade for both sides. But upon further reflection, the age issue does bother me quite a bit and I don’t see him having a big ceiling. I think there is a chance, even a good one, that he could become a 2 win SS for like a four year stretch. But that doesn’t just move the needle for us given where we’re currently at and I’d rather have someone like Beavers who could see his status really elevate with a strong 2024 season. You have him for his age 25-30 seasons. I don’t think his age should be that big of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 6 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: I bet many teams would select Shultz over Mayo and basallo I think some might, but I think the greater injury risk with pitchers would cause most to go with the similarly talented positional guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pale Sox Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Ortiz is good. I don’t think he’s what the White Sox are looking for. These can both be true. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think some might, but I think the greater injury risk with pitchers would cause most to go with the similarly talented positional guys. I think we're all just tired of having a roster full of first basemen, so anyone with "1B" risk in their profile is anathema. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I think Ortiz is a fairly nice prospect and for a while I really thought a Kjerstad + Ortiz + 3rd piece (~45 FV guy) was a win-win trade for both sides. But upon further reflection, the age issue does bother me quite a bit and I don’t see him having a big ceiling. I think there is a chance, even a good one, that he could become a 2 win SS for like a four year stretch. But that doesn’t just move the needle for us given where we’re currently at and I’d rather have someone like Beavers who could see his status really elevate with a strong 2024 season. Ortiz’s age is the same reason I hated seeing people talk about Dodgers trade offers including Michael Busch as a key piece. But Busch was even worse cuz he’s actually slightly older, and although he may have a legit lefty bat, he apparently has no glove/position. Edited January 6 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Talking about Mets prospects for like, two pages, was fun 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 Just now, Bob Sacamano said: You have him for his age 25-30 seasons. I don’t think his age should be that big of an issue. Let’s just say we’re hoping to be competitive by 2026. He’d be 27/28 in the first year of our window. As a glove first SS, I’d be concerned that his defense would begin slowing down pretty soon thereafter. Maybe I’m overthinking it a bit, but it definitely would be a concern for me. However, as the second piece with the right centerpiece and a quality third piece I’d probably be good with him. Just have soured on him some as I thought through the bigger picture more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Quin said: Talking about Mets prospects for like, two pages, was fun Hey if we had some Mets fans in here talking about how they won't trade anyone for Cease I'd go look at their prospects too 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 minutes ago, Pale Sox said: Ortiz is good. I don’t think he’s what the White Sox are looking for. These can both be true. Exactly. Great post. If he was 22, I think Getz would be all over him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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