1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Yea they do.  And btw, the cost doesn’t have to be lower. People would gladly trade for a better player and trade more for him.

You might have missed reading the better value part 

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

You aren't telling us anything.  We've known our organization was garbage for the past 10 years.

Didn’t say I was..someone questioned me saying it though.

Just now, SkokieSox said:

You might have missed reading the better value part 

Lots of guys listed are better or equal values. They don’t all have the upside though.

Edited December 30, 20232 yr by Sports Guy

4 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Opinion is incoherently liking a bad player without ever providing any factual data proving your point that said player is good.  But let’s move on and continue to talk about good prospects, not busts like Madrigal.

Thank you for your "opinion."

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Lots of guys listed are better or equal values. They don’t all have the upside though.

Upside is part of the value proposition 

My guess is that Elias won’t pay up for Cease and the Orioles end up not acquiring any starter this offseason.  They proceed to get spanked in the playoffs again.

Edited December 30, 20232 yr by WhiteSox2023

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Thank you for your "opinion."

Jesus man the Madrigal defense is a weird hill to die on. Weird obsession over a bad player.

Edited December 30, 20232 yr by Bob Sacamano

Just now, SkokieSox said:

Upside is part of the value proposition 

Well, some of the guys I mentioned have tremendous upside too. The difference is they haven’t shown it at this level yet.

That said, value is many things…salary, service time, upside, ceiling, floor, etc…most of the guys I listed encompass all of that.

Despite what you guys think, cease isn’t the only guy out there and despite what he was in 2022, he is a giant question mark moving forward in terms of how much can you trust him in October and really, that’s all that matters to us right now.

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Thank you for your "opinion."

?

Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

Jesus man the Madrigal defense is a weird hill to die on. Weird obsession over a bad player.

It is but I will say that I was surprised that his BA/OBp combo hasn’t been bad and OAA likes his defense some.

He has zero power though and that’s a problem

3 minutes ago, Snopek said:

Sure, but afford and willing to pay for are two different things.

Based on everything you’ve told us about Elias, he’s 1) Very concerned and risk averse about not overpaying (which, yeah, tends to not get you very far when trying swing trades) and 2) Concerned with needing your OF prospects to fill holes when Hays/Santander are gone.

I think that’s pretty close to true.  It’s not like Elias has made any public statements about being reluctant to trade more than one outfielder, it’s just common sense.

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Well, some of the guys I mentioned have tremendous upside too. The difference is they haven’t shown it at this level yet.

That said, value is many things…salary, service time, upside, ceiling, floor, etc…most of the guys I listed encompass all of that.

Despite what you guys think, cease isn’t the only guy out there and despite what he was in 2022, he is a giant question mark moving forward in terms of how much can you trust him in October and really, that’s all that matters to us right now.

Question marks all around, including what would potentially comeback for a Cease acquisition. 

18 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No it’s not.  It’s the truth. Your organization is garbage. The Os had a garbage org for like 25 years. I know what garbage organizations look like.

The good news for you guys is that you were at least good recently and recognize that you suck, so maybe you won’t be as moronic as the Os were and wait multiple decades before realizing you need to get with the times.

Would a garbage organization let its fans get shot in the stadium and then continue play?

1 minute ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

My guess is that Elias won’t pay up for Cease and the Orioles end up not acquiring any starter this offseason.  They proceed to get spanked in the playoffs again.

The playoffs are a crap shoot, so they could get 2 starters like Cease and still get spanked…just ask Atlanta and LA.

I actually tend to agree that the Os will screw things up and either not get a starter or will end up with another Kyle Gibson/Jordan Lyles type guy.

The Os will likely be adding a bunch of elite position prospects to the team this year. The ceiling for the team will be higher than 2023. It’s not easy to win 100 games but I think there’s a good chance the Os could win 90 games in 2024 and be a better team.

But without adding a true starter, I won’t feel great about their chances in the playoffs heading into the season.  If a young pitcher emerges during the year, like Bradish did and has, that would change things for me.

2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Jesus man the Madrigal defense is a weird hill to die on. Weird obsession over a bad player.

Arguing with him is futile. He’s deified Madrigal and any argument in fact is simply dismissed as opinion. The funny thing is, Madrigal doesn’t even fit the archetype of yore he’s so fond of no matter how hard he wills it into existence.  

17 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Saying Ortiz is all glove shows your lack of Knowledge of him as a player.

Beavers and Povich are far more a sure thing than 17 year Dominicans.

I think you just lack knowledge of the players.  

You’re talking about certainty…the only thing certain about Ortiz is his glove (hence him having an all glove floor).  There are no guarantees with his bat and I simply don’t buy him having this alleged elite bat speed when no other source has ever claimed this (to my knowledge at least).  BA’s latest report calls his power “fringy” while also highlighting his strength gains and stronger offensive production last year.  That doesn’t mean Ortiz won’t be a solid offensive player, but I’m certainly not going to bank on it happening.

And as for the other players in question, I’ve read the scouting reports from BA, BP, MLB, Fangraphs, and Tony over at OH (who does a great job).  I’ve looked at their numbers extensively.  I really like Beavers as a prospect and would love to have him in a Cease deal, but he’s got tremendous bust potential like most prospects of his stature.  And Povich is literally just a dude.  I don’t necessarily prescribe to the TINSTAAPP theory, but for me to buy into a pitching prospect I either need to see elite stuff or strong results and he doesn’t check either box.  Again, he’s a perfectly fine prospect, but 45 FV pitching prospects aren’t worth all that much.

Also, not sure what 17 year old prospects you think we’re comparing these guys to either.  We all understand the basic concept that results in the upper minors correlates better with major league success.

30 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Whose obsession?  Mine?  I don’t love Povich at all. High upside arm but I’m much more down on him than most Os fans.

you guys are the ones who have mentioned Povich a lot.  I’d happily include him in a trade.

The Hangout loves themselves some Povich.  I figured he must of had Randy Johnson like stuff before I read Tony’s scouting report on him based on the way many of the posters over there were clutching on him (not you or Frobby).

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It is but I will say that I was surprised that his BA/OBp combo hasn’t been bad and OAA likes his defense some.

He has zero power though and that’s a problem

Maybe he’s improved a bit in D, but he was awful with the Sox. Bad slow base runner, dumb mistake after dumb mistake. The bat plays, but a slap hitting singles hitter possessing no other tools despite how highly touted they supposedly were just isn’t a very useful ball player. 

I love how there’s a Nick Madrigal side discussion going on in this thread

Just now, Tnetennba said:

Maybe he’s improved a bit in D, but he was awful with the Sox. Bad slow base runner, dumb mistake after dumb mistake. The bat plays, but a slap hitting singles hitter possessing no other tools despite how highly touted they supposedly were just isn’t a very useful ball player. 

He was shockingly very good defensively at 3B

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

For sure. I just don't think the Yanks would give all that up.  I could see Dominguez OR Lombard, Hampton OR Warren and a couple of lower level lottery tickets, though. Personally, I'd steer clear of Spencer Jones. He could end up an All Star, but he has so many red flags, he could be a Joe Borchard.

I’m just going by the tweet that said they’re asking for 4 a team’s top 10 prospects. Not sure they’ll get it but maybe.

Sure seems like the Yankees could put together a pretty interesting package.

I particularly would love getting both Arias and Lombard in a return as second/third pieces. Young up the middle guys with solid toolsets. Arias sure sounds like he has star upside as well. I'm very intrigued.

Just now, fathom said:

He was shockingly very good defensively at 3B

I figured his little arm couldn’t handle the throws.

2 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Maybe he’s improved a bit in D, but he was awful with the Sox. Bad slow base runner, dumb mistake after dumb mistake. The bat plays, but a slap hitting singles hitter possessing no other tools despite how highly touted they supposedly were just isn’t a very useful ball player. 

I don’t disagree. I was just commenting that he was actually a little more useful than I thought  he was. I don’t disagree that it’s an odd stance to take.

Hell, I pulled a Madrigal auto out of a topps pack years ago. I wish he was good so I could sell it.  Maybe the poster here will pay up for it!  ?

4 minutes ago, fathom said:

He was shockingly very good defensively at 3B

Yep, for the Cubs.  I think I mentioned that.  Cubs fans also couldn’t believe how slow he was at running the bases just like Sox fans.  Regardless, his bat would only play as a starter if he was a Gold Glove caliber SS as well.  But he has at least turned himself into a decent backup infielder after proving he can play 3B.  He’s just not starter material.

Edited December 30, 20232 yr by WhiteSox2023