Maybe we could stop coddling pitchers and they would get stronger like they did for all of baseball history until the last 25 years.  

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

That is absolutely accurate.  You can say he had other workouts, but so did everyone else meaning the distance between he and a typical starter is still around 1000+ innings of game work over those 7 seasons.  

If a pitcher is throwing MLB innings, they're not in Arizona throwing complex games. So, no, it isn't. 

17 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

If a pitcher is throwing MLB innings, they're not in Arizona throwing complex games. So, no, it isn't. 

They are still throwing sides and spring training. Also I really hope you aren't trying to say that Garrett Crochet made up somewhere around 1000 innings when he missed time because he was always hurt, again meaning that healthy starters would be throwing WAY more in unaccounted innings than Crochet.

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

They are still throwing sides and spring training. Also I really hope you aren't trying to say that Garrett Crochet made up somewhere around 1000 innings when he missed time because he was always hurt, again meaning that healthy starters would be throwing WAY more in unaccounted innings than Crochet.

So you agree that saying Garret Crochet threw only 12 or 24 innings last year is nonsense. I'm glad we got that out of the way. 

1 minute ago, WestEddy said:

So you agree that saying Garret Crochet threw only 12 or 24 innings last year is nonsense. I'm glad we got that out of the way. 

No, it isn’t nonsense lol throwing bullpens and side work just doesn’t come close

28 minutes ago, pmb0928 said:

Maybe we could stop coddling pitchers and they would get stronger like they did for all of baseball history until the last 25 years.  

Yes, pitchers throwing hundreds of max effort pitches is coddling.?

38 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

So you agree that saying Garret Crochet threw only 12 or 24 innings last year is nonsense. I'm glad we got that out of the way. 

Holy s%*# are you being intentionally dense in a sad attempt to make a point you are 100% wrong about.

He absolutely 100% threw only 12.2 innings in 2023.

He may have done other things, but they do not fall under the actual definition of innings pitched.  So did every other pitcher in baseball.  In fact they would have done multiples more work because they were healthy and working at full speed and strength. 

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Holy s%*# are you being intentionally dense in a sad attempt to make a point you are 100% wrong about.

He absolutely 100% threw only 12.2 innings in 2024.

He may have done other things, but they do not fall under the actual definition of innings pitched.  So did every other pitcher in baseball.  In fact they would have done multiples more work because they were healthy and working at full speed and strength. 

This x 100000000

27 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Yes, pitchers throwing hundreds of max effort pitches is coddling.?

For decades there were 4 man rotations. A pitcher barely reaches  200 innings anymore. They used to throw 250-300 consistently.  There wasn't all these am injuries like there is now.  If you use something more it gets stronger.  Also if you learn how to pitch you don't have to give max effort all the time.  It's why kopech stocks.  He throws,  doesn't pitch.  

Crochet looked smooth out there, he didn't have to give max effort every pitch.  

Greg Maddux was on the DL for a total of 15 days in 23 seasons.  

 

24 minutes ago, pmb0928 said:

For decades there were 4 man rotations. A pitcher barely reaches  200 innings anymore. They used to throw 250-300 consistently.  There wasn't all these am injuries like there is now.  If you use something more it gets stronger.  Also if you learn how to pitch you don't have to give max effort all the time.  It's why kopech stocks.  He throws,  doesn't pitch.  

Crochet looked smooth out there, he didn't have to give max effort every pitch.  

Greg Maddux was on the DL for a total of 15 days in 23 seasons.  

 

There is little to no proven science on strengthening tendons and ligaments. You can strengthen the surrounding muscle tissue, and possibly some of the connective tissue adjacent to the bone and muscle, but not the structures themselves.

The force put on an elbow throwing 98 mph heaters and 90 mph sliders is what is causing injuries, not "coddling". FFS we have technology now that can measure these forces and we know how destructive they can be on the human arms and shoulders.

The average MLB fastball in 2002, hardly even that long ago in MLB terms, was 89 mph. It's now almost 94mph. You think that might have something to do with injuries to pitchers?

 

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Holy s%*# are you being intentionally dense in a sad attempt to make a point you are 100% wrong about.

He absolutely 100% threw only 12.2 innings in 2023.

He may have done other things, but they do not fall under the actual definition of innings pitched.  So did every other pitcher in baseball.  In fact they would have done multiples more work because they were healthy and working at full speed and strength. 

Never in this whole string have I said "...compared to other pitchers". When Crochet pitched at the Arizona complex, he threw actual innings to actual hitters that aren't logged on Baseball-Reference.com. 

This is getting tiresome, old ladies pretending the Sox are wheeling a hospital bed out to the mound for Crochet to throw the first pitch he's ever thrown in his life. 

 

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by WestEddy

31 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Never in this whole string have I said "...compared to other pitchers". When Crochet pitched at the Arizona complex, he threw actual innings to actual hitters that aren't logged on Baseball-Reference.com. 

This is getting tiresome, old ladies pretending the Sox are wheeling a hospital bed out to the mound for Crochet to throw the first pitch he's ever thrown in his life. 

 

You are absolutely correct that whatever this is is tiresome.

Some flaming cold takes (for now) in the 1st few pages of this thread.

Ironically @Balta1701 doing the world's 2nd longest running bit (apparently, @greg775 still leads) as after all his arguing was the only person to take the over on 4 innings in the discussion.

 

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by chitownsportsfan

3 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

Yes, pitchers throwing hundreds of max effort pitches is coddling.?

Haha, exactly.  But apparently West Eddy doesn’t understand that pitchers don’t go max effort during side sessions.

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by WhiteSox2023

3 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

This x 100000000

Yep.

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Never in this whole string have I said "...compared to other pitchers". When Crochet pitched at the Arizona complex, he threw actual innings to actual hitters that aren't logged on Baseball-Reference.com. 

This is getting tiresome, old ladies pretending the Sox are wheeling a hospital bed out to the mound for Crochet to throw the first pitch he's ever thrown in his life. 

 

Dude, those are sim games.  They aren’t going max effort, lol.

 

Didn’t say this… or much… in the game thread… but I dug the broadcast and liked the new guy way more than Jason.

17 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

No, it isn’t nonsense lol throwing bullpens and side work just doesn’t come close

Then how did countless other TJS pitchers come back after only the same TJS rehab Crochet went through, if not less advanced versions of it. I don’t think any of them could have put in the eqivalent of 1000 innings of work, wherever that came from, in those 18 months. It’s kind of flabbergasting that people are arguing that isn’t enough to prepare the arm for a full workload, when it has in fact been done repeatedly. 

Edited March 30, 20242 yr by 4OCS

26 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

Pretty cool. I don’t recall seeing something like this from Katz before.

6 minutes ago, 4OCS said:

Then how did countless other TJS pitchers come back after only the same TJS rehab Crochet went through, if not less advanced versions of it. I don’t think any of them could have put in the eqivalent of 1000 innings of work, wherever that came from, in those 18 months. It’s kind of flabbergasting that people are arguing that isn’t enough to prepare the arm for a full workload, when it has in fact been done repeatedly. 

By gradually building up their arms and technique both before and after the injury?

Come on, seriously, how many pitchers can you count who have thrown under 250 innings total including college, the minors, and the majors, over 6 seasons, who are being treated as a normal starter? I would be surprised if the answer in the last 20 years is more than 1.

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

By gradually building up their arms and technique both before and after the injury?

Come on, seriously, how many pitchers can you count who have thrown under 250 innings total including college, the minors, and the majors, over 6 seasons, who are being treated as a normal starter? I would be surprised if the answer in the last 20 years is more than 1.

That’s the exact same thing Crochet did. The 18 month rehab.  Any building prior to the surgery would be irrelevant because it would be gone after the healing process is finished

27 minutes ago, 4OCS said:

Then how did countless other TJS pitchers come back after only the same TJS rehab Crochet went through, if not less advanced versions of it. I don’t think any of them could have put in the eqivalent of 1000 innings of work, wherever that came from, in those 18 months. It’s kind of flabbergasting that people are arguing that isn’t enough to prepare the arm for a full workload, when it has in fact been done repeatedly. 

The guy who actually work in baseball as an actual trainer feels he has 80 to 100 innings in him tops this year, so no it isn't "flabbergasting" to think this. In fact your completely unsupported and un proven opinion is the one that qualifies as "flabbergasting".

Give me one example like Garrett Crochet in baseball going from 30 innings a year on average for the years before their surgery to a full starter work load.

40 minutes ago, 4OCS said:

Then how did countless other TJS pitchers come back after only the same TJS rehab Crochet went through, if not less advanced versions of it. I don’t think any of them could have put in the eqivalent of 1000 innings of work, wherever that came from, in those 18 months. It’s kind of flabbergasting that people are arguing that isn’t enough to prepare the arm for a full workload, when it has in fact been done repeatedly. 

Because, when a pitcher throws 7 innings in a major league game, they get wired that the TJS rehabbers threw a simulated game in Arizona, or actually pitched to live batters in a complex game, so then everybody comes back out on the field at night, and they play an intra-squad game so all the pitchers throw the same amount of innings to live batters, just so their work load is more. 

It's just silly at this point. If the White Sox slow-walked Crochet, then everybody would be screaming that slow-walking Crochet is the absolute worst thing to do!!! He's already proven everything he has to at AAA, and Reinsdorf's just trying to claw back another year of cheap control!!!

Nobody's even trying to make sense with their mic-drop comments. Only when we're knee deep in microphones do we realize nothing has really been said. 

Crochet threw 6 innings. He said his arm felt good. I'm sure the club will adjust accordingly if something changes. 

23 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's just silly at this point. If the White Sox slow-walked Crochet, then everybody would be screaming that slow-walking Crochet is the absolute worst thing to do!!! He's already proven everything he has to at AAA, and Reinsdorf's just trying to claw back another year of cheap control!!! 

This is complete bullshit and it’s incredibly annoying and arrogant that you continue to make these claims.  There is literally nothing worse than the board crusader who fights the good fight against theoretical comments never actually said.  You’re 100% welcome to have a different opinion than the majority of the board without constantly needing to fabricate others’ viewpoints in some bizarre attempt at belittling the rest of us.