Dick Allen Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Because he can field CF defensively way better than anyone else available for that little cost . He can also put Benintendi on the bench in the late innings or against LH starting pitchers . He leads all MLB OFs in DRS with 54 runs saved since 2020. He's also likely their best Pinch runner and despite his inability to hit he usually generates positive WAR overall. Incrementally he'll do things to help them win and avoid another season like 2024. Why are you so opposed to it ? Can you name one OF who truly was available or currently on the Sox for equal or less money who can provide what Taylor can defensively and on the basepaths ? Certainly not Fletcher. Getz didn't even trust him to handle RF where he contributed decently defensively but he doesn't have the wheels to be as good defensively in CF , on the bases or as a late inning defensive replacement for Benintendi or occasional starter against LHP. If Fletcher was the best you could do to replace Robert in CF that's pretty bad. He couldn't even earn RF and you're going to hand him CF ? If you're thinking Slater in CF you're going to have to convince me that taking him out of the RF platoon roll against LHP and sticking him in CF full time in the event of a Robert trade helps OF depth ,RF weak side Platoon , late inning defense in LF pinchrunning and defense in CF and contributes more to wins than just adding Taylor. What if Robert and Tauchman are traded ? Then won't you need a left handed RF ( presumably Fletcher or Colas) to hold down the fort in RF unless you prefer Joey Gallo out there ? If the goal is to win more than 41 games again but still have the best chance at the Top pick in every round of the draft you're going to have to come up with better reasons than it saves JR $2M dollars or blocks the 5'6", -.8 fWar Dominic Fletcher from playing CF. This is the time to see what you have, not sign washedup vets to take their ABs away. Taylor is obviously better defensive, but if you're trying to do your pitchers a favor, you still have to score runs. As I mentioned earlier, Tommy Pham performed at least as well as expected last year. In what way did the White Sox ultimately benefit by giving those ABs to him and not DeLoach and Fletcher? Considering your make them earn it edict, are you OK if Montgomery is the Openimg Day SS, or should they bring in another washed-up ver? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: This is the time to see what you have, not sign washedup vets to take their ABs away. Taylor is obviously better defensive, but if you're trying to do your pitchers a favor, you still have to score runs. As I mentioned earlier, Tommy Pham performed at least as well as expected last year. In what way did the White Sox ultimately benefit by giving those ABs to him and not DeLoach and Fletcher? Considering your make them earn it edict, are you OK if Montgomery is the Openimg Day SS, or should they bring in another washed-up ver? No I'm not ok if Montgomery is the OD starter but defense at SS is going to be iffy no matter who they put there unless it's longshot Amaya and I think I'd rather have Baldwin get a shot as SS because while they are trying to get offense out of Vargas and Sosa I'm not looking forward to their defense when one of them DHs or plays 1st base or w/e they have in store for them. The infield is a lot more crowded with potential MLB players than the OF is. Fletcher got over 230 PA with the Sox .He failed miserably and it's not like he or Deloach lit up the Minors either. Again you're dealing with marginal types. Failure of all turds is kind of normal. But you can't give up on trying to trade turds into a few minor leaguers in lost seasons. Nor should you play prospects who are some of the turds. They are still here. Let them knock down the door to beat out the trade candidate vets. Edited February 16 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: No I'm not ok if Montgomery is the OD starter but defense at SS is going to be iffy no matter who they put there unless it's longshot Amaya and I think I'd rather have Baldwin get a shot as SS because while they are trying to get offense out of Vargas and Sosa I'm not looking forward to their defense when one of them DHs or plays 1st base or w/e they have in store for them. The infield is a lot more crowded with potential MLB players than the OF is. Fletcher got over 230 PA with the Sox .He failed miserably and it's not like he or Deloach lit up the Minors either. Again you're dealing with marginal types. Failure of all turds is kind of normal. But you can't give up on trying to trade turds into a few minor leaguers in lost seasons. Nor should you play prospects who are some of the turds. They are still here. Let them knock down the door to beat out the trade candidate vets. Michael A. Taylor was a turd last year. In fact, pretty much all the free agents the White Sox signed last year were turds. It was the reason they were signed. I’d rather give Fletcher, who has hit everywhere until last year, a bigger shot. If he fails, he fails, so what? If he does hit, Westeddy can bow to his Chris Getz shrine. All these other guys are 1 year or under, most probably under, and if you think they will command a decent prospect at the deadline……. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: No I'm not ok if Montgomery is the OD starter but defense at SS is going to be iffy no matter who they put there unless it's longshot Amaya and I think I'd rather have Baldwin get a shot as SS because while they are trying to get offense out of Vargas and Sosa I'm not looking forward to their defense when one of them DHs or plays 1st base or w/e they have in store for them. The infield is a lot more crowded with potential MLB players than the OF is. Fletcher got over 230 PA with the Sox .He failed miserably and it's not like he or Deloach lit up the Minors either. Again you're dealing with marginal types. Failure of all turds is kind of normal. But you can't give up on trying to trade turds into a few minor leaguers in lost seasons. Nor should you play prospects who are some of the turds. They are still here. Let them knock down the door to beat out the trade candidate vets. Colas, Fletcher, Julks and DeLoach are replacement level outfielders at this point. Cal Mitchell's in that group, too. I'm not expecting guys like Veras, Tatum, Burke, Hogan/Logan to blow past them, either. When they trade Robert, Tauchman, Slater, .... Taylor(?), there will be 2 months of PAs for whomever has the hottest bat. Then, maybe Zavala, Saucke and B. Monty become dots on the horizon this time next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 29 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Colas, Fletcher, Julks and DeLoach are replacement level outfielders at this point. Cal Mitchell's in that group, too. I'm not expecting guys like Veras, Tatum, Burke, Hogan/Logan to blow past them, either. When they trade Robert, Tauchman, Slater, .... Taylor(?), there will be 2 months of PAs for whomever has the hottest bat. Then, maybe Zavala, Saucke and B. Monty become dots on the horizon this time next year. I don’t think any of those players can be qualified even that highly. Edited February 16 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Michael A. Taylor was a turd last year. In fact, pretty much all the free agents the White Sox signed last year were turds. It was the reason they were signed. I’d rather give Fletcher, who has hit everywhere until last year, a bigger shot. If he fails, he fails, so what? If he does hit, Westeddy can bow to his Chris Getz shrine. All these other guys are 1 year or under, most probably under, and if you think they will command a decent prospect at the deadline……. If Robert gets traded, I'd bet Taylor stays in his stated role, backup CF, short side platoon for Benintendi, and maybe Fletcher/DeLoach/Colas starts CF against righties. Or something. Maybe it's more of a 1/2 and 1/2 sharing of CF with one of the 3 LHHs. They have no high-minors outfield "depth" outside of 4-5 AAAA guys, at this point. If I started crushing on Dominic Fletcher's ceiling, you and 3-4 others would tackle me and tell me exactly how bad he is. You know what you have. He's replacement level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: Michael A. Taylor was a turd last year. In fact, pretty much all the free agents the White Sox signed last year were turds. It was the reason they were signed. I’d rather give Fletcher, who has hit everywhere until last year, a bigger shot. If he fails, he fails, so what? If he does hit, Westeddy can bow to his Chris Getz shrine. All these other guys are 1 year or under, most probably under, and if you think they will command a decent prospect at the deadline……. Fletcher needs to prove something in AAA before I give him another major league opportunity. He hit well in the minors but has always been on the older side and his numbers in Reno weren’t that good when you consider what actual productive major leaguers have done there (see Eaton). Unfortunately he’s a 27 year old tweener OF who was a questionable addition from the get go and who has since regressed. I wouldn’t 100% write him off, but he blew a golden opportunity and now must earn his way IMO. We can always cut Taylor or even Slater if Fletcher proves himself worthy in Charlotte to start the year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 14 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: Fletcher needs to prove something in AAA before I give him another major league opportunity. He hit well in the minors but has always been on the older side and his numbers in Reno weren’t that good when you consider what actual productive major leaguers have done there (see Eaton). Unfortunately he’s a 27 year old tweener OF who was a questionable addition from the get go and who has since regressed. I wouldn’t 100% write him off, but he blew a golden opportunity and now must earn his way IMO. We can always cut Taylor or even Slater if Fletcher proves himself worthy in Charlotte to start the year. He has 900 plate appearances in AAA and an .837 OPS. Sending him back down does no good. He’s 27. Time to sink or swim. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: He has 900 plate appearances in AAA and an .837 OPS. Sending him back down does no good. He’s 27. Time to sink or swim. His time to sink or swim was last year. We had massive holes across the OF and he completely drowned as 26 year old. He failed spectacularly with all elements of offense. And beyond his pure production, go look at some of his Statcast metrics. We’re talking about a 5’ 6” tweener OF with below average speed and bat speed that would rank in the bottom 5% of major leaguers. He lacks the speed to be a legitimate CF and lacks the power to be a corner OF. I don’t know what anyone saw in him last year to say this dude deserves to be handed an opportunity. He looked horrible with the bat and totally incapable of impacting a baseball despite squaring up on the ball at a near elite level. Again, you want to look at Reno stats without any sort of context to say this guy deserves another opportunity, but go look at how other have performed there. I pointed this out when we first acquired him so not going to track down those figures again, but his numbers were very ordinary given Reno is the most offensive friendly park in all of minor baseball. Playing in that type of environment can make all the difference in skewing power numbers for a little guy who is actually good at squaring up on the ball. Personally, if it came down to it, I’d rather cut bait on him altogether than hand him a starting spot. Unlike many here, I was a huge critic of Fletcher’s from day 1 and how he performed last year in both Chicago & Charlotte only reaffirmed my opinion. The reality is the kid is going to be 27 on Opening Day and turn 28 by the end of the season. He lacks both ceiling and an extended runway. I’m just not sure what the end goal Is here. A solid 4th OF for a couple years if it all clicks? Not sure how that actually moves the needle for us. However, given the complete lack of OF talent in the upper minors, we might as well send him to AAA this season and see if he shows anything there. If performs at all, even in just April, then I’d be willing to call up him…but dude needs to earn his way. Edited February 17 by Chicago White Sox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: His time to sink or swim was last year. We had massive holes across the OF and he completely drowned as 26 year old. He failed spectacularly with all elements of offense. And beyond his pure production, go look at some of his Statcast metrics. We’re talking about a 5’ 6” tweener OF with below average speed and bat speed that would rank in the bottom 5% of major leaguers. He lacks the speed to be a legitimate CF and lacks the power to be a corner OF. I don’t know what anyone saw in him last year to say this dude deserves to be handed an opportunity. He looked horrible with the bat and totally incapable of impacting a baseball despite squaring up on the ball at a near elite level. Again, you want to look at Reno stats without any sort of context to say this guy deserves another opportunity, but go look at how other have performed there. I pointed this out when we first acquired him so not going to track down those figures again, but his numbers were very ordinary given Reno is the most offensive friendly park in all of minor baseball. Playing in that type of environment can make all the difference in skewing power numbers for a little guy who is actually good at squaring up on the ball. Personally, if it came down to it, I’d rather cut bait on him altogether than hand him a starting spot. Unlike many here, I was a huge critic of Fletcher’s from day 1 and how he performed last year in both Chicago & Charlotte only reaffirmed my opinion. The reality is the kid is going to be 27 on Opening Day and turn 28 by the end of the season. He lacks both ceiling and an extended runway. I’m just not sure what the end goal Is here. A solid 4th OF for a couple years if it all clicks? Not sure how that actually moves the needle for us. However, given the complete lack of OF talent in the upper minors, we might as well send him to AAA this season and see if he shows anything there. If performs at all, even in just April, then I’d be willing to call up him…but dude needs to earn his way. Most of this I would agree with if they were replacing him with another young guy or a real RF or real CF if Robert goes. I just don’t see the point of these retreads at this time. They aren’t getting flipped for anything. They aren’t going to lead the team to the playoffs. I just don’t see the logic in moving on from a younger guys who didn’t because he didn’t get it done last year to older guys who didn’t get it done last year. Edited February 17 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Another meaningless move in a so-called rebuild that is going nowhere in the near future. Another lackluster offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Most of this I would agree with if they were replacing him with another young guy or a real RF or real CF if Robert goes. I just don’t see the point of these retreads at this time. They aren’t getting flipped for anything. They aren’t going to lead the team to the playoffs. I don’t disagree. Ideally, we should be playing young guys or veterans with some actual flip potential. Unfortunately, the upper minors are a wasteland in terms of OF talent. DeLoach, Colas, & Fletcher couldn’t even be league average hitters in Charlotte last year. Personally, I think Dominic & Zack were simply big scouting misses while Oscar is a physically gifted player who lacks the character needed to be a quality major leaguer. The good news is if any of them show us anything at all, we can cut or trade the veterans ahead of them since they are so cheap. Until then, at least go with some veterans who (hopefully) won’t contribute to another 121 loss season. Sucks we’re at this point, but Hahn left a huge mess and Getz made some questionable additions to our upper minors OF depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 17 minutes ago, Highland said: Another meaningless move in a so-called rebuild that is going nowhere in the near future. Another lackluster offseason. You got to remember that a lot of people seem to think the White Sox knew they would finish last place last year. It explains why they made all the youth moves and let the kids play to try and develop. Oh wait, that's not really what they did at all..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 5 minutes ago, T R U said: You got to remember that a lot of people seem to think the White Sox knew they would finish last place last year. It explains why they made all the youth moves and let the kids play to try and develop. Oh wait, that's not really what they did at all..... What kids did they not play though? Who was ready and forced the issue that didn’t get playing time? The vast majority of free agents that Getz signed were intended to be placeholders to avoid rushing legitimate prospects. I see people keep suggesting the Sox thought those additions were viable win now pieces, which is 100% not the case. The Sox knew they were going to be bad last year regardless of a handful of PR spin comments made to the media. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: What kids did they not play though? Who was ready and forced the issue that didn’t get playing time? The vast majority of free agents that Getz signed were intended to be placeholders to avoid rushing legitimate prospects. I see people keep suggesting the Sox thought those additions were viable win now pieces, which is 100% not the case. The Sox knew they were going to be bad last year regardless of a handful of PR spin comments made to the media. There's really no evidence at all that the White Sox expected to finish last in 2024 going into the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 23 minutes ago, T R U said: There's really no evidence at all that the White Sox expected to finish last in 2024 going into the season. Last in all of baseball? Maybe not. But actually competitive? No, they did not think that…they knew they would be very bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 23 minutes ago, T R U said: There's really no evidence at all that the White Sox expected to finish last in 2024 going into the season. Sure, because that’s not something that can actually be proven. Likewise, there’s no evidence that they expected to be competitive either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 51 minutes ago, T R U said: You got to remember that a lot of people seem to think the White Sox knew they would finish last place last year. It explains why they made all the youth moves and let the kids play to try and develop. Oh wait, that's not really what they did at all..... That would be the major inconsistency in this story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 45 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: What kids did they not play though? Who was ready and forced the issue that didn’t get playing time? The vast majority of free agents that Getz signed were intended to be placeholders to avoid rushing legitimate prospects. I see people keep suggesting the Sox thought those additions were viable win now pieces, which is 100% not the case. The Sox knew they were going to be bad last year regardless of a handful of PR spin comments made to the media. I don't get what the otherside of the argument here is other than manufacturing something to argue about as far as Getz making mistakes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Last in all of baseball? Maybe not. But actually competitive? No, they did not think that…they knew they would be very bad. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say that they thought they would be winning the division but the evidence to the contrary is JR adamantly saying they would not be rebuilding, Getz being hired because he is familiar with the organization and we wouldn't waste any time with someone else since this would allow for accelerated improvement, and also Getz throwing some shade at the AL Central being up for grabs every year. I think WE knew this team would be very bad, I don't think the sentiment is the same from the front office as far as last season was concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted February 17 Author Share Posted February 17 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Baron said: I don't get what the otherside of the argument here is other than manufacturing something to argue about as far as Getz making mistakes. Lee and Ramos were pretty much starting by May. The last third of the season had Lee, Baldwin, Sosa, Vargas, Amaya, and Fletcher starting. Burke, Martin and Cannon were in the rotation with starts from Bush and Nastrini. 2024 Chicago White Sox Lineups and Defense | Baseball-Reference.com Edited February 17 by WestEddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Lee and Ramos were pretty much starting by May. The last third of the season had Lee, Baldwin, Sosa, Vargas, Amaya, and Fletcher starting. Burke, Martin and Cannon were in the rotation with starts from Bush and Nastrini. Exactly. Memories are short. Plus is anyone really expecting anyone outside of Martin Perez to really be given a job? There's competition everywhere right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 12 minutes ago, T R U said: Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say that they thought they would be winning the division but the evidence to the contrary is JR adamantly saying they would not be rebuilding, Getz being hired because he is familiar with the organization and we wouldn't waste any time with someone else since this would allow for accelerated improvement, and also Getz throwing some shade at the AL Central being up for grabs every year. I think WE knew this team would be very bad, I don't think the sentiment is the same from the front office as far as last season was concerned. They didn’t want to use the term “rebuild” because of what that term implies and the fact the last one literally just failed. Jerry saying he didn’t want to “waste a year” when hiring Getz doesn’t suggest any immediate expectation of winning, but rather an acknowledgment that he’s 88 and time is running out for him. Getz throwing shade at the rest of the AL Central was curios more so due to timing and obviously missed the mark, but the underlining point does hold true if we can eventually right the ship. Beyond the comments you’re citing, people keep forgetting that he also said that he didn’t “like this our team”. GMs are almost never that honest, which should be the most telling of all things the org said last year. Again, it’s very possible Getz is/will be a bad GM, but he’s not completely incompetent to not know how a Fangraphs pre-season W-L forecast works. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snopek Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 15 minutes ago, T R U said: Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say that they thought they would be winning the division but the evidence to the contrary is JR adamantly saying they would not be rebuilding, Getz being hired because he is familiar with the organization and we wouldn't waste any time with someone else since this would allow for accelerated improvement, and also Getz throwing some shade at the AL Central being up for grabs every year. I think WE knew this team would be very bad, I don't think the sentiment is the same from the front office as far as last season was concerned. We’re typically cynical about anything the FO says or does, so I’m not sure why we suddenly took the bolded at face value. In other words, why interpret that as anything other than them blowing smoke up our asses? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 3 minutes ago, Snopek said: We’re typically cynical about anything the FO says or does, so I’m not sure why we suddenly took the bolded at face value. In other words, why interpret that as anything other than them blowing smoke up our asses? Probably because it hits a little differently when you put out the worst season in baseball history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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