Sox trade Andrew Vaughn to acquire Aaron Civale

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who sucked anywhere close to Andrew Vaughn who got this much runway?

we all knew Vaughn had to go, but it still plays into the national perception that the Sox are a terrible organization

[Tony]

27 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Cease trade deserves criticism.  People ripping the Sox or Getz over Vaughn being traded and then magically being good is revisionist history at its finest.  The dude sucked for years with us, every single poster here wanted him gone, and it’s almost all but a certainty he wasn’t willing to change with us.  People ripping Fuller when there is empirical evidence of Fuller driving meaningful change in getting guys to lift and pull is the cherry on top.

Also, not sure what people expected to get for a bad, one-dimensional, RH 1B who could only put up a 78 wRC+ after being demoted to AAA.  Civale isn’t good, but they got him to eat innings done the stretch which was a better use of salary than the s%*# production they were getting from Andrew.

Say you’re running your own business. You hire someone and invest heavy resources into the new hire, and they’ve been recommended to you by others in your company.

They are a total disappointment. There is no development, they aren’t getting better, failing at their job. You eventually fire that person, they go to work for a competitor, and later learn they’re having tremendous success at this competitor. 

Two things stand out to me:

1. You’ve most likely made your organization better because at the end of the day said employee was not producing for you, and you can replace that person with someone who is much more productive 

2. I would question my own organization that this person couldn’t find success with my company, but came highly recommended and is finding success with my competitor. Why couldn’t we get the same kind of production? 

Both things can be true, but simply throwing roses at the Sox because Andrew Vaughn sucked for them is naive 

[Tony]

3 minutes ago, fathom said:

we all knew Vaughn had to go, but it still plays into the national perception that the Sox are a terrible organization

Oh I think that’s the local perception as well 😂

[WhiteSox2023]

6 minutes ago, fathom said:

we all knew Vaughn had to go, but it still plays into the national perception that the Sox are a terrible organization

Perception?  🤣

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Another bomb.

Would make me feel a little bit better about my assessment of vaughn when drafted if he just dominates for a few years after leaving the Sox.

So if the drafting wasn't the problem...

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who sucked anywhere close to Andrew Vaughn who got this much runway?

Rojas...in all seriousness, nobody else comes to mind.

Maybe Sheets, but he was more of a platoon guy.

I remember back in the day Joe Borchard hardly getting a half season's worth of at bats and was equally hyped to Vaughn.

The difference was those were competitive Sox teams for the most part.

[southsider2k5]

56 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The Cease trade deserves criticism.  People ripping the Sox or Getz over Vaughn being traded and then magically being good is revisionist history at its finest.  The dude sucked for years with us, every single poster here wanted him gone, and it’s almost all but a certainty he wasn’t willing to change with us.  People ripping Fuller when there is empirical evidence of Fuller driving meaningful change in getting guys to lift and pull is the cherry on top.

Also, not sure what people expected to get for a bad, one-dimensional, RH 1B who could only put up a 78 wRC+ after being demoted to AAA.  Civale isn’t good, but they got him to eat innings done the stretch which was a better use of salary than the s%*# production they were getting from Andrew.

If this is Andrew Vaughn going forward there should 100% be some questions on what the hell happened while he was here.  Fans being sick of Vaughn sucking couldn't matter less and isn't the main issue here.  Self-evaluation on the talent and the franchises ability to maximize it is 100% the main takeaway. 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

Say you’re running your own business. You hire someone and invest heavy resources into the new hire, and they’ve been recommended to you by others in your company.

They are a total disappointment. There is no development, they aren’t getting better, failing at their job. You eventually fire that person, they go to work for a competitor, and later learn they’re having tremendous success at this competitor. 

Two things stand out to me:

1. You’ve most likely made your organization better because at the end of the day said employee was not producing for you, and you can replace that person with someone who is much more productive 

2. I would question my own organization that this person couldn’t find success with my company, but came highly recommended and is finding success with my competitor. Why couldn’t we get the same kind of production? 

Both things can be true, but simply throwing roses at the Sox because Andrew Vaughn sucked for them is naive 

Who is throwing roses at the Sox over Vaughn sucking?  Me highlighting quality work from Fuller this year was to point out that other hitters are getting better in this very organization.  That doesn’t make me some front office Stan, I have been very vocal in my disappointment with Bannister and the pitching this year.  I may lean towards an optimistic take, but I will always call it like I see it.

As for your example, we’re talking about young millionaires with massive ego’s.  A person has to want to get better for an organization to make them better.  I made many bad decisions in my youth from a professional perspective that would reflect poorly on my first employer and it took a change of scenery (or in my case, being let go) for me to recheck myself and reach my potential.  As I mentioned earlier, there have been leaks for the past several years that Vaughn wasn’t open to instruction or analytics.  Some people are unfortunately uncoachable until they take a L and it’s very apparent to me that’s the case with Andrew.  People can blame the Sox because it’s easy and it fills the “Sox suck at everything” narrative, but sometimes you got hold the person or in this case the player accountable.  The Sox gave this dude 2,400 PA’s and he put up -1.8 fWAR before being demoted and sucking even worse in AAA.  I’m not trying to give the Sox a free pass, but in this case I am very confident that Andrew Vaughn was going to suck with us no matter we did because he was a stubborn, ignorant f*** unwilling to change.

[TheFutureIsNear]

The only thing I have to say about the Vaughn situation is…at least I’m not surprised. This was extremely predictable 

 

And I still want an investigation into what happens to every Sox hitter. My hunch is it’s something in the water at the stadium, but who knows. I look forward to the future Netflix doc.

[caulfield12]

49 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who is throwing roses at the Sox over Vaughn sucking?  Me highlighting quality work from Fuller this year was to point out that other hitters are getting better in this very organization.  That doesn’t make me some front office Stan, I have been very vocal in my disappointment with Bannister and the pitching this year.  I may lean towards an optimistic take, but I will always call it like I see it.

As for your example, we’re talking about young millionaires with massive ego’s.  A person has to want to get better for an organization to make them better.  I made many bad decisions in my youth from a professional perspective that would reflect poorly on my first employer and it took a change of scenery (or in my case, being let go) for me to recheck myself and reach my potential.  As I mentioned earlier, there have been leaks for the past several years that Vaughn wasn’t open to instruction or analytics.  Some people are unfortunately uncoachable until they take a L and it’s very apparent to me that’s the case with Andrew.  People can blame the Sox because it’s easy and it fills the “Sox suck at everything” narrative, but sometimes you got hold the person or in this case the player accountable.  The Sox gave this dude 2,400 PA’s and he put up -1.8 fWAR before being demoted and sucking even worse in AAA.  I’m not trying to give the Sox a free pass, but in this case I am very confident that Andrew Vaughn was going to suck with us no matter we did because he was a stubborn, ignorant f*** unwilling to change.

Have the Sox said anything positive about any position player to leave the organization since Jose Abreu???

Hendriks is the only pitcher that comes to mind.

[Chicago White Sox]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Have the Sox said anything positive about any position player to leave the organization since Jose Abreu???

Hendriks is the only pitcher that comes to mind.

This was all leaked before he left the org

[caulfield12]

38 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This was all leaked before he left the org

Sure, but what does it say when almost every single player upon leaving gets torched?

Lynn

Graveman

K.Middleton

Tim Anderson

Jimenez

Moncada

Vaughn

Grandal

Madrigal

Keuchel

(but somehow not Clevinger lol)

Edited August 16 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Perception?  🤣

Reality...

[RibbieRubarb]

King Vaughn T-shirt giveaway on August 26th.

First 10,000 ticketed fans who enter the gates.

 

Who's going?

[champagne030]

1 hour ago, RibbieRubarb said:

King Vaughn T-shirt giveaway on August 26th.

First 10,000 ticketed fans who enter the gates.

 

Who's going?

That's fucking awesome.  I don't know if Vaughn needed a wakeup call, change of scenery/new voice or just another case of Getz's ineptitude at being in charge of everyone in the player development program.

[T R U]

This is no longer a hot streak, he's very clearly changed something and it has taken off. And no, I don't think he is Barry Bonds but this is a guy who was very good in college and taken/rated very highly in the draft. The skillset has always been there.

What's more likely, Andrew Vaughn refused to listen to White Sox coaches but chose to listen to Brewers coaches OR the White Sox are an amateur organization that has no idea how to get the best out of their players and the Brewers excel at that? Gee, tough choice there.

Edited August 20 by T R U

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, T R U said:

This is no longer a hot streak, he's very clearly changed something and it has taken off. And no, I don't think he is Barry Bonds but this is a guy who was very good in college and taken/rated very highly in the draft. The skillset has always been there.

What's more likely, Andrew Vaughn refused to listen to White Sox coaches but chose to listen to Brewers coaches OR the White Sox are an amateur organization that has no idea how to get the best out of their players and the Brewers excel at that? Gee, tough choice there.

I thought someone posted here (or Twitter) that he did make changes (further back in box, closer to plate, etc)

[T R U]

Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

I thought someone posted here (or Twitter) that he did make changes (further back in box, closer to plate, etc)

Well I don't think you snap out of your .531 OPS by NOT making some kind of change lol

[almagest]

Definitely seems to have found something, but I'll reserve full judgement until next year, as his hot streak in Milwaukee has basically just gotten him back around his career averages.

[WestEddy]

54 minutes ago, T R U said:

This is no longer a hot streak, he's very clearly changed something and it has taken off. And no, I don't think he is Barry Bonds but this is a guy who was very good in college and taken/rated very highly in the draft. The skillset has always been there.

What's more likely, Andrew Vaughn refused to listen to White Sox coaches but chose to listen to Brewers coaches OR the White Sox are an amateur organization that has no idea how to get the best out of their players and the Brewers excel at that? Gee, tough choice there.

I remember the story of Kopech, and I'll choose the former reason. 

[RibbieRubarb]

1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I thought someone posted here (or Twitter) that he did make changes (further back in box, closer to plate, etc)

Brewers broadcast said the Brewers coaches saw a flaw and they helped fix it. He can now see the pitches better and be more patient.
They didn't say what specifically...

With hitting its such the little things, especially mental. So, I wouldn't discount getting a new start factoring in...

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, T R U said:

This is no longer a hot streak, he's very clearly changed something and it has taken off. And no, I don't think he is Barry Bonds but this is a guy who was very good in college and taken/rated very highly in the draft. The skillset has always been there.

What's more likely, Andrew Vaughn refused to listen to White Sox coaches but chose to listen to Brewers coaches OR the White Sox are an amateur organization that has no idea how to get the best out of their players and the Brewers excel at that? Gee, tough choice there.

Couldn’t option 1, option 2, or both be true?

Both Kopech and Vaughn performed better after leaving the Sox.

Edited August 20 by WhiteSox2023

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, T R U said:

This is no longer a hot streak, he's very clearly changed something and it has taken off. And no, I don't think he is Barry Bonds but this is a guy who was very good in college and taken/rated very highly in the draft. The skillset has always been there.

What's more likely, Andrew Vaughn refused to listen to White Sox coaches but chose to listen to Brewers coaches OR the White Sox are an amateur organization that has no idea how to get the best out of their players and the Brewers excel at that? Gee, tough choice there.

My guess is the second half leads to the first half, especially based on how many players get trashed by the Sox minions for work ethic, at the same time that Ex-Sox players are amazed at how much better it seems away from the Sox.  It is valid to wonder how connected the two things are when they seem to keep happening over and over again, meanwhile survey after survey puts the Sox at the bottom of the league as a place to play.

If true, have we ever stopped to ask why so many seemingly "lazy" players end up here?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

My guess is the second half leads to the first half, especially based on how many players get trashed by the Sox minions for work ethic, at the same time that Ex-Sox players are amazed at how much better it seems away from the Sox.  It is valid to wonder how connected the two things are when they seem to keep happening over and over again, meanwhile survey after survey puts the Sox at the bottom of the league as a place to play.

If true, have we ever stopped to ask why so many seemingly "lazy" players end up here?

They only care about free daycare benefits lol.

But Tauchman wants to stay...location location location.

Edited August 20 by caulfield12

[WhiteSox2023]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

My guess is the second half leads to the first half, especially based on how many players get trashed by the Sox minions for work ethic, at the same time that Ex-Sox players are amazed at how much better it seems away from the Sox.  It is valid to wonder how connected the two things are when they seem to keep happening over and over again, meanwhile survey after survey puts the Sox at the bottom of the league as a place to play.

If true, have we ever stopped to ask why so many seemingly "lazy" players end up here?

Or have the Sox perhaps instilled that sort of culture over the years?