Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Sometimes we have a tendency to not always value enough what we have. So, just as a reminder, here are Lee's numbers for this year. 0 errors 31 hr 37 doubles 11 steals 103 runs 99 rbi 86 k's (not bad for a slugger) 305/366/525 I'm not saying that keeping Lee is the right or wrong move. But, I think the Sox don't just make a change for change's sake and if you give up Lee, a lot of quality needs to come back. Is Lee the type of guy you build a team around? I would tend to say no but I think he's a real weapon in the order that can legitimately hit anywhere between 2nd and 6th. I just wanted to throw this out there as a nugget to think about before we get excited about trading him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Sometimes we have a tendency to not always value enough what we have. So, just as a reminder, here are Lee's numbers for this year. 0 errors 31 hr 37 doubles 11 steals 103 runs 99 rbi 86 k's (not bad for a slugger) 305/366/525 I'm not saying that keeping Lee is the right or wrong move. But, I think the Sox don't just make a change for change's sake and if you give up Lee, a lot of quality needs to come back. Is Lee the type of guy you build a team around? I would tend to say no but I think he's a real weapon in the order that can legitimately hit anywhere between 2nd and 6th. I just wanted to throw this out there as a nugget to think about before we get excited about trading him. walks?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 walks?? less than he had in the second half of 2002... Oh how I miss that carlos. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 It's not the numbers that are lacking from Carlos. It's something much more important. Both Ozzie and KW have said publicly this year Carlos that he's not a complete player. If its not his defense or hitting then what is it? IMO, its a question of heart, of playing baseball the right way in order to win. If Lee hasn't got that now, at age 28, no matter what physical talents he has, it won't be enough to help the sox be a better team. If he doesn't have that hunger to win, to push himself, the Sox would be better off trading him when he's at his highest value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 His walks aren't Frank like but they aren't Hillenbrand like either. HIs .366 obp is nothing to sneeze at. Admittedly, we aren't in the clubhouse so it's hard to argue the heart issue but I do know that Carlos is a much improved defender from 2-3 years ago. I hope it's Paul that goes if anybody and that carlos sticks around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I think if we can move Carlos and get good pieces in return, it would be best for the team... Ide hate to see him go though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I think by complete, they mean better reads defensively and a better arm, and a better leader. Defensively, he isnt good, his 0 error total is very misleading. He had so many plays that an average leftfielder would get, bounce right in front of him or go over him because of bad reads- these arent listed as errors though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 I agree. He may not throw out guys at the plate but compare him to a guy like Alou and it's night and day. He makes some nice catches and is pretty solid in general ou there. I'm not sayign not to trade him, but I just get the feeling that a lot of us can't wait to deal him or Konerko because change is exciting. My point is that in baseball as much as anything in life, you tend to underrate what you already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 :headshake You obviously didnt watch the Sox like most us did this season. While Carlos doesnt deserve a GG, there is no way you can call Carlos a defensive liability in LF anymore. Over the last 3 seasons, Carlos has made a complete 180 in the field, The 0 errors are not misleading. I didnt watch sox games??? I went to 40 games at comiskey and saw about 110 on television. I saw almost all of the whitesox games and am very critical(unlike the terrible announcer-HAWK) He had no errors because he didnt muff any balls or made any bad throws. Althoguh, there were a countless # of plays that he didnt get a good read and the ball dropped in front of him or it went over him. Has he made progress since his first year in leftfield? Oh yeah, he has made a lot of progress and has shown an amazing amount of improvement although he still is a liability in left field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I think alot of us take Lee for granted. Espcailly since we have all seen him mature, and we remember 3 years ago when we thought he was going to ever breakout. Lee has been a rock in the lineup for the last 2 seasons, and has only gotten better with the lumber and with the glove. Lee needs to stay on the SS, or we need to get something very good in return for him. If Lee were on another team, we needed a left fielder, and he was available, people would be salivating over the prospect of him playing left field for us. His play in the outfield has been solid, and improving every year. Now his baserunning that's a different story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I think alot of us take Lee for granted. Espcailly since we have all seen him mature, and we remember 3 years ago when we thought he was going to ever breakout. Lee has been a rock in the lineup for the last 2 seasons, and has only gotten better with the lumber and with the glove. Lee needs to stay on the SS, or we need to get something very good in return for him. We have been down this road a number of times. It amazes how many people seem to want to dump our best players. We have astrength at 1B with Konerko and in LF with Carlos Lee. I also see strengths at CF with Rowand and even 3B with the potential of Crede. The Big Hurt is the man at DH. Uribe is a strength as a super sub in the IF. You don't trade strength in one area to build up ina weak area becasue you just weaken yourself again and don't really improve. I think our relief corp and a another quality starter are our needs. I can't believe how many peopl liked the idea of Foulke for Koch a couple years ago. We even signed Koch for what essentially was the same amount of money Foulke was asking. I thin we would have won the AL Central in '03 and maybe '04 with Foulke as our closer. But, the powers to be didn't think Foulke had it in him anymore. I think our problem is not having a good value or take on our own talent. 5 or more prospects for the likes of Robbie Alomar and Carl Everett? Need I say more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I didnt watch sox games??? I went to 40 games at comiskey and saw about 110 on television. I saw almost all of the whitesox games and am very critical(unlike the terrible announcer-HAWK) He had no errors because he didnt muff any balls or made any bad throws. Althoguh, there were a countless # of plays that he didnt get a good read and the ball dropped in front of him or it went over him. Has he made progress since his first year in leftfield? Oh yeah, he has made a lot of progress and has shown an amazing amount of improvement although he still is a liability in left field. You can make that same statement about balls falling in front of players about ANYONE. I saw some fall in front of the GODLY Jim Edmonds during the playoffs. The fact is, Carlos Lee was NOT a defensive liability in LF last year. He played a VERY aggressive left field, made a LOT of plays that he hadn't made in years past, and overcame a slow power start to end up with 30+ homers and doubles, and damn near 100 RBI - I was really hoping he'd have gotten that last ribbie. I'm very happy with the way Carlos has progressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 You can make that same statement about balls falling in front of players about ANYONE. I saw some fall in front of the GODLY Jim Edmonds during the playoffs. The fact is, Carlos Lee was NOT a defensive liability in LF last year. He played a VERY aggressive left field, made a LOT of plays that he hadn't made in years past, and overcame a slow power start to end up with 30+ homers and doubles, and damn near 100 RBI - I was really hoping he'd have gotten that last ribbie. I'm very happy with the way Carlos has progressed. I can't believe I am agreeing with this guy, but you hit it right on the head. Carlos has worked really hard and made a lot of progress. My biggest complaint is that he still gets very much into ruts... He will only swing for the fences for a while, and then he will only worry about his average for a while.... He needs to work more on game situation hitting, instead of Lee situation hitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Am I going too far to say that Carlos is the best player on the Sox right now? And in doing so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 Right, Lee still has plenty of room to improve and no one would dispute that. But, it's hard to argue that he hasn't come along way and is one of the better all-around corner outfielders in the game. Is Lee the best player on the Sox? That's always a tricky question with the Sox because I think that Frank is our best hitter and obviously he doesn't field so I would not really have a problem saying that Lee is our best player. It's rare that your best player isn't your best hitter, defender, or runner but such is life on the South Side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitlesswonder Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I agree that the Sox shouldn't undervalue Lee. He's not perfect, but he's a big-time major league hitter and those are hard to find. He posted the 6th best OPS by an outfielder in the AL last season. He's not a GG OF, but he is not a liability in the field. If anyone wtached the Red Sox in the post-season, they saw what liabilities in the OF look like. And he's been pretty healthy, or at least played through injuries. Just becuase he's not a GG OF and doesn't walk quite as much as I would like, I think trading him for anything other than great value would be a mistake. I think he is the kind of hitter you can build a lineup around (not an all-star, but very solid). And as for the posts that insinuate he doesn't have heart and isn't a grinder, I don't think it's true. Of everyone on the team, he the one seems to go on in hardest to break up double plays, he's obviously worked hard on his defense, and despite some mental lapses he seems to me to care about the games (he's the one who reminded Manuel to pinch-run in one of the games in MN). I'm baffled why Everett has a reputation as a "grinder" when he obviously let himself get out of shape last year, and told the Twins 1B that the Sox "didn't have it" in 2003. I think Lee's attitude is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 He's undervalued by White Sox fans. If it's between Konerko and Lee, I take Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 i 2 wonder how so many people undervalue carlos lee.. but those same people think konerko is like some god.... i wish those people would look at his splits, you dont need to pay a guy 8 million to only show up for home games and be totally s*** on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 Am I going too far to say that Carlos is the best player on the Sox right now? And in doing so, is that a good thing or a bad thing? No, I don't think that's going to far. In fact, I'm going to take it one step further. I'm going to say that Carlos is finally going to break out into a star next season and put up MVP type numbers. Am I crazy? (And if Kenny trades Lee, he better get a king's ransom in return...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punch and Judy Garland Posted October 31, 2004 Author Share Posted October 31, 2004 Actually, had the Sox not collapsed in 03, he was a top 5 MVP guy in the AL that year. The AL was wide open and memory tells me that he was a real catalyst for this team out of the two-hole and was hitting big homers and stealing a lot of bases. I think he's already a star offensively on the level of a pre 04 Abreu type. Maybe a little less speed but a little more raw power. Of course Sbreu broke out and had a monster year this year. I don't hate Konerko or anything but if I had to pick my choice would be simple. That said, if your trading partner wants only Lee.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 31, 2004 Share Posted October 31, 2004 I think by complete, they mean better reads defensively and a better arm, and a better leader. Defensively, he isnt good, his 0 error total is very misleading. He had so many plays that an average leftfielder would get, bounce right in front of him or go over him because of bad reads- these arent listed as errors though. If lee's defense was not good, his range factor and zone rating would not be the fifth best out of all qualified left fielders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 You can make that same statement about balls falling in front of players about ANYONE. I saw some fall in front of the GODLY Jim Edmonds during the playoffs. The fact is, Carlos Lee was NOT a defensive liability in LF last year. He played a VERY aggressive left field, made a LOT of plays that he hadn't made in years past, and overcame a slow power start to end up with 30+ homers and doubles, and damn near 100 RBI - I was really hoping he'd have gotten that last ribbie. I'm very happy with the way Carlos has progressed. No, I am saying balls falling in front of him that 80-90% of corner outfielders would make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 Carlos Lee is not one of the worse left fielders in baseball. He's not one of the best either, but he is at the very least average. He hustles and works his ass off to get to that level and he has even made some good plays. Hell, as the season went on he even showed some improvement in his arm, which I used to call one of the worse in baseball for an outfielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 No, I am saying balls falling in front of him that 80-90% of corner outfielders would make. His range factor and zone rating is fifth best in baseball for left fielders like i said. So that means he gets to alot more than you think he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted November 1, 2004 Share Posted November 1, 2004 His range factor and zone rating is fifth best in baseball for left fielders like i said. So that means he gets to alot more than you think he does. Range is very misleading, it more is relative to who your pitchers are. I have never heard of zone factor though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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