Ozzie finally sees the light

[cgaudin]

It appears Ozzie's been reading some of these bulletin boards, or someone's given him sound advice. Ozzie will appear to use Thome's hamstring pull to move him down in the order to 4th or 5th, where he's belonged all along. During his post-game comments, he indicated that due to Thome's delicate hamstring, he wants a 3-hitter who will run full speed, and although he says it's temporary, I suspect Ozzie wants to give Dye every opportunity to get that MVP trophy. Ozzie knows that his best opportunity to maximize production from Dye is by inserting him in the 3-spot. In Ozzie's mind it's a two for one proposition, since Dye will get the benefit of having more RBI opportunities, and the Sox, IMO, will have a more fluid offense to consistently score more runs.

 

It has taken till the last 7 weeks of the season, but I believe the timing couldn't be better. This lineup now is scarier than it could ever be. I always believed that teams could pitch around Thome, in a strange sort of way. Thome is so prone to strikeout, that the likelyhood he would put the ball in play was practically negligible. It is either a homerun a flyout or a strikeout, that's it. With that in mind, Ozzie could never take the chance to start runners with Thome having 2 strikes in the count. A "Hit n Run" was never an option in the top of the order because of that very risk. Now that Dye is batting 3rd, the top of the order will have a more dynamic baserunning mindset. Iguchi will get much better pitches to hit because of Dye hitting behind him. There can be no defensive shift applied to Dye since he sprays the ball all over the field, and that very shift has to be altered when there are runners on base, which will be the likely case with Thome hitting further down in the order. This helps the offense in ways we cannot yet imagine. If you thought the offense was good before, then hold on to your hats cause it's going to be a wild ride. If the offense turns out as good as I believe it is going to be, then it will not matter how our starting pitchers do the rest of the way.

[Hangar18]

Ive been screaming for this move for QUITE SOME TIME. Cant tell you how happy I am that the SOX are finally doing the right thing. I got roasted by some clowns because they thought it meant that Thome must not be good ("hes got 30 something homeruns!"), when what it really means is that Jermaine Dye is on a tear and is hitting the ball to all fields and MAKING CONTACT, which is what you really want from your #3 guy. Even a dog can see that Dye is better suited in the #3 hole right now

 

I just hope it isnt too late .......

[Dick Allen]

I really don't think consistency is an issue with the White Sox offense. They have been fairly consistent all season, and have scored 2 or fewer runs in a game far fewer times than any team in MLB. To say all Thome does is hits a homer, fans or hits a fly out is exaggerating, considering he has a higher OBP than Dye. Thome does fan alot 120 times to be exact. Second on the White Sox in strikeouts-JD with 95. Dye is on fire right now, and Thome is going to be asked not to run as hard as he can. I think this move is good for the moment, but Dye will unfortunately eventually cool off a bit. To say this move will mean the end of the importance of the starting pitchers' performance the rest of the way for White Sox success is just ridiculous.

Edited August 30, 2006 by Dick Allen

[Rowand44]

I really don't think consistency is an issue with the White Sox offense. They have been fairly consistent all season, and have scored 2 or fewer runs in a game far fewer times than any team in MLB. To say all Thome does is hits a homer, fans or hits a fly out is exaggerating, considering he has a higher OBP than Dye. Thome does fan alot 120 times to be exact. Second on the White Sox in strikeouts-JD with 95. Dye is on fire right now, and Thome is going to be asked not to run as hard as he can. I think this move is good for the moment, but Dye will unfortunately eventually cool off a bit. To say this move will mean the end of the importance the starting pitchers' the rest of the way is for White Sox success is just ridiculous.

Completely agree DA, fantastic post. Moving Dye to the 3 hole isn't going to do much for this team unless Buehrle has indeed got himself back on track and we can get Jose to wake the hell up. Lineup changes or not, it's still going to come down to getting at least some consistancy from the starting rotation.

[Hangar18]

To say this move will mean the end of the importance the starting pitchers' the rest of the way is for White Sox success is just ridiculous.

 

 

yes. Dye #3, Anderson in CF the rest of the way, and the starting pitching putting a stop to giving up 9 runs a game will go a long way to making the playoffs.

[NorthSideSox72]

Flipping Dye and Thome is not even in the top 10 list of issues with this team. While I like the move, if indeed Ozzie makes it, I don't see this as some big change. Given Thome's numbers, which if you use OPS with runners on or RISP are better than Dye's (thanks Qwerty), I'd say this is only a very small improvement if one at all.

 

Issues that are far more important than this one:

 

Garcia's crappy pitching

Vazquez's 5 and dives

Contreras' sudden suckage (which I believe is a back injury)

Our questionable middle relief

Our .260-hitting, poor-fielding, low SB-percentage leadoff hitter

Lousy production from 8-9-1 in the lineup (though that was quite good last night)

Anderson being benched for Mack way too often

Ozzie's general insistence on playing people out of position

Ozzie's mouth

Team's lack of ability to bunt and otherwise move runners over (effective outs)

The fact that we are in a division with 2 of the 5 best teams in baseball

Our remaining schedule being tougher than either of theirs

 

Those are just some of them. And I'm a relative optimist. I just think this whole Dye/Thome thing is minor in the scheme of things.

[Hangar18]

Issues that are far more important than this one:

 

Garcia's crappy pitching

Vazquez's 5 and dives

Contreras' sudden suckage (which I believe is a back injury)

Our questionable middle relief

 

I notice your first 4 points are all Pitching related ..........

Hey, pitching is far more important, agreed. This Dye in the #3 hole is a minor and relatively FASTER and EASIER move to make in the scheme of things, so why not make the move? The pitching ......thats another can of worms.

[TheHammer]

I would prefer to have Dye hit behind the two guys with .400 OBPs.

[Dick Allen]

I would prefer to have Dye hit behind the two guys with .400 OBPs.

That's a thought I have as well. You would think you would want him hitting behind guys who get on more often. He will most likely have fewer men on base in the 3 hole.

[southsider2k5]

That's a thought I have as well. You would think you would want him hitting behind guys who get on more often. He will most likely have fewer men on base in the 3 hole.

 

That's my big problem with having Dye hit 3rd. If Pods and Iguchi aren't on, he is wasted, whereas we know Thome and Konerko are going to get on base at a much hirer clip, don't you want your best clutch hitter, hitting with guys on base?

[MSHAWKS]

I think Thome and Dye have been so similiar offensively that any order you bat them in is fine.

[Controlled Chaos]

That's my big problem with having Dye hit 3rd. If Pods and Iguchi aren't on, he is wasted, whereas we know Thome and Konerko are going to get on base at a much hirer clip, don't you want your best clutch hitter, hitting with guys on base?

and I think Ozzie feels the same way as he has said Dye in the 3 hole is just temporary untill Jimmy is 100%.

[Steff]

I would prefer to have Dye hit behind the two guys with .400 OBPs.

 

 

Oh please. There is no room for common sense around here.

[Dick Allen]

Of the 3 of them, Thome has batted with runners on base the fewest times percentage-wise, then Konerko, then Dye. Dye has 441 ABs this season, 220 with runners on base. Moving Dye permanently to the 3 hole would actually be decreasing his RBI opportunities.

[Kalapse]

And once again it comes back around to the failures of the top of the order. Just imagine how unstoppable this offense would be with a real leadoff hitter. Watching Crawford yesterday, I'm not sure there's a better fit for this team out there than that man.

[beautox]

And once again it comes back around to the failures of the top of the order. Just imagine how unstoppable this offense would be with a real leadoff hitter. Watching Crawford yesterday, I'm not sure there's a better fit for this team out there than that man.

 

What about your boy Rocco, he appears to finally be healthy, do you think the D-Rays would move him?

[cgaudin]

Very intersting takes on this subject, so far. I can't say that any of you are off base with your logic. IMO I feel Dye will be the better 3-hitter. More importantly is how Thome will effect the batting order being further down. perhaps AJ and Crede can get some leftover Karma.

[Kalapse]

What about your boy Rocco, he appears to finally be healthy, do you think the D-Rays would move him?

I think it comes down to the trade value of the 2 players. The Devil Rays when you look at it have a pretty damn good young offense going for them right now but have absolutely NO pitching outside of Kazmir, Crawford if traded this offseason could bring in 1 or 2 frontline pitching prospects, Rocco on the other hand would bring them considerably less in any deal they make, he still has amazing upside considering his athletic ability but he has missed 230 games over the past 2 seasons due to injury. So if they're going to trade 1 of the 2 they'd probably be better suited to move Crawford and get some real value for him instead of trading Rocco when his value is at its all-time lowest. That said, if they're willing to move Rocco, I'd be all for swinging a deal for him.

[Balta1701]

Of the 3 of them, Thome has batted with runners on base the fewest times percentage-wise, then Konerko, then Dye. Dye has 441 ABs this season, 220 with runners on base. Moving Dye permanently to the 3 hole would actually be decreasing his RBI opportunities.

But conversely, it would also be increasing the RBI opportunities for Thome and Konerko. Dye would also potentially be in a better position offensively, because how many pitchers are going to pitch around Jermaine Dye to get to Jim Thome, compared to AJ Pierzynski?

 

And of course, the big one in my eyes, is it still dramatically reduces the ability of an opponent to steal 3 easy outs late in games, or shut us down in the first inning, simply by having a left-hander on the mound, because JD is killing lefties.

[beautox]

But conversely, it would also be increasing the RBI opportunities for Thome and Konerko. Dye would also potentially be in a better position offensively, because how many pitchers are going to pitch around Jermaine Dye to get to Jim Thome, compared to AJ Pierzynski?

 

And of course, the big one in my eyes, is it still dramatically reduces the ability of an opponent to steal 3 easy outs late in games, or shut us down in the first inning, simply by having a left-hander on the mound, because JD is killing lefties.

Simply Murder! vs. Left: .360 Damn!

 

I think it comes down to the trade value of the 2 players. The Devil Rays when you look at it have a pretty damn good young offense going for them right now but have absolutely NO pitching outside of Kazmir, Crawford if traded this offseason could bring in 1 or 2 frontline pitching prospects, Rocco on the other hand would bring them considerably less in any deal they make, he still has amazing upside considering his athletic ability but he has missed 230 games over the past 2 seasons due to injury. So if they're going to trade 1 of the 2 they'd probably be better suited to move Crawford and get some real value for him instead of trading Rocco when his value is at its all-time lowest. That said, if they're willing to move Rocco, I'd be all for swinging a deal for him.

What would you give up to get either of these? Broadway + _______ & maybe _________?

[elrockinMT]

If Ozzie Guillen ever starts making baseball moves concerning line up changes, batting orders and personnel based on posts from this board he should be fired! B)

[southsider2k5]

If Ozzie Guillen ever starts making baseball moves concerning line up changes, batting orders and personnel based on posts from this board he should be fired! B)

 

Heck if it were up to a Soxtalk vote, JD would have been released in April of 05 anyways, it wouldn't really matter anyway

[Pants Rowland]

Simply Murder! vs. Left: .360 Damn!

What would you give up to get either of these? Broadway + _______ & maybe _________?

 

Vazquez & maybe Garcia

[Soxbadger]

SS2k,

 

If we did what this board wanted we wouldnt have:

 

Konerko

Garland

Dye

Vazquez

[longshot7]

Yeah, but Thome is a home run machine. I hit 120 hrs with him in MLB 2K6.