Buehrle Fest

[santo=dorf]

QUOTE(diegotony06 @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Everyone here will probably agree that 2005 was a special year and a lucky one also. We got every break and took advantage of every break we got.

Can we please put this to rest?

 

I recall Aaron Rowand diving for a flyball that turned into a double during a huge rally (4 doubles off of Jenks) by the Indians during a critical September series. How many teams would say the berak went their way when they throw a one hitter but lose 1-0?

[whitesoxfan101]

So, in effect, Mark would have to give the Sox his permission to be traded throughout the duration of his contract. Again, I can see why KW and JR would have a problem with that.

 

You can never re-sign a guy with or near 10/5 then ever. Sounds logical to me.

[WCSox]

You can never re-sign a guy with or near 10/5 then ever.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Why the face? You can't trade 10/5 guys, so by your logic if we have a veteran that's been here for 5 years or a guy that's been in our system for 10 years, we can't ever keep them because hey, we can't trade them!!

[supernuke]

Which is exactly what the Buehrle side wants you to believe.

 

Yeah, it looks like Mark played this out perfectly. I think he is getting exactly what he wanted.

[dagotony06]

Can we please put this to rest?

 

I recall Aaron Rowand diving for a flyball that turned into a double during a huge rally (4 doubles off of Jenks) by the Indians during a critical September series. How many teams would say the berak went their way when they throw a one hitter but lose 1-0?

We got every break that we needed to win. Not every single break of every game, cause then we wwould have went 173-0. I'm talking about lucky breaks in general. I also pointed out that our pitching was the reason we won, and MB was part of that. So to not sign him to a very reasonable contract 14 mil. a year, just because we won't give him a no trade clause is complete bulls***. Reward the guy for what he did for you. Show some damn allegiance to your players, players that helped you win that World series. Players that are in their prime,MB and JG, you build around guys like that. You don't ship them off for prospects, which will probably never amount to anything near than what you have now in mB, and soon JG.

[29thandPoplar]

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 30, 2007 -> 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't trade 10/5 guys, so by your logic if we have a veteran that's been here for 5 years or a guy that's been in our system for 10 years, we can't ever keep them because hey, we can't trade them!!

 

You may already know this or may have implied this with your post, but to clarify:

 

A 10/5 guy can be traded, he just has to give his permission. It does happen.

 

It is not a guy who's been in the system for 10 years, but 10 active years on a major league 25 man roster with the last 5 being with one team. It includes DL stints by the way, not that DL has been an issue for Buehrle.

 

Again, you may have implied this by your post, just wanted to clarify.

[whitesoxfan101]

You may already know this or may have implied this with your post, but to clarify:

 

A 10/5 guy can be traded, he just has to give his permission. It does happen.

 

It is not a guy who's been in the system for 10 years, but 10 active years on a major league 25 man roster with the last 5 being with one team. It includes DL stints by the way, not that DL has been an issue for Buehrle.

 

Again, you may have implied this by your post, just wanted to clarify.

 

Yeah I knew that, but probably should have been more clear. All NTC's just mean you can reject trades, they don't mean you can't be traded at all.

[WCSox]

Why the face? You can't trade 10/5 guys, so by your logic if we have a veteran that's been here for 5 years or a guy that's been in our system for 10 years, we can't ever keep them because hey, we can't trade them!!

 

So if KW and JR give in and give Mark what he wants, what if Mark blows out his shoulder in September and his performance diminishes afterwards? They would have a very difficult time recouping even a tiny fraction of their $55-60 million investment.

 

I'm not saying that Mark's NTC demand is unreasonable, but you need to take off your fan glasses and look at this through the ownership's perspective. How have high-tier veteran pitchers performed after signing big four- and five-year contracts recently? What happened the last time that the Sox give a veteran pitcher one of those big four-year deals? What would've happened if JR had allowed Schueler to give Blackjack, Fernandez, and Alvarez deals like that back in the mid-90's. From what they've seen around the league recently and experienced personally, their chances of getting their money's worth from the deal that Mark supposedly wants is very low.

Edited June 30, 2007 by WCSox

[SoxFan562004]

If the Sox refusal to give a NTC kills this deal and KW fails to get anything in quality in return for MB I will be crushed as a Sox fan. There's not much more I can say about it, this is a major crossroad for the Sox org.

[StrangeSox]

Which is exactly what the Buehrle side wants you to believe.

 

Isn't it also what the articles posted on whitesox.com, part of the White Sox organization, say?

[fathom]

Isn't it also what the articles posted on whitesox.com, part of the White Sox organization, say?

 

Yes, but there's heavy rumors that many of the "sources" during the last week were members of Buehrle's family.

[WCSox]

Yes, but there's heavy rumors that many of the "sources" during the last week were members of Buehrle's family.

 

IMO, this is all a massive smokescreen. Given (1) the fact that KW traded for two LHSPs this past winter, and (2) JR's decisions regarding Blackjack, Alvarez, and Fernandez back in the mid-'90s, I don't think that the Sox ever intended to extend Mark. This is a PR circus orchestrated by both sides to make them look like the good guy.

Edited June 30, 2007 by WCSox

[dagotony06]

So if KW and JR give in and give Mark what he wants, what if Mark blows out his shoulder in September and his performance diminishes afterwards? They would have a very difficult time recouping even a tiny fraction of their $55-60 million investment.

 

I'm not saying that Mark's NTC demand is unreasonable, but you need to take off your fan glasses and look at this through the ownership's perspective. How have high-tier veteran pitchers performed after signing big four- and five-year contracts recently? What happened the last time that the Sox give a veteran pitcher one of those big four-year deals? What would've happened if JR had allowed Schueler to give Blackjack, Fernandez, and Alvarez deals like that back in the mid-90's. From what they've seen around the league recently and experienced personally, their chances of getting their money's worth from the deal that Mark supposedly wants is very low.

You risk that with every player that signs a contract. What if Konerko would have blown out his knee after signing the contract he signed. It's just part of the risk of signing players. What happens if you trade Buehrle for a can't miss prospect or two, and they blow their arms out the first year they are with us, and Buerhle goes on and pitches another 12 years without a problem. It's all a gamble if you look at it that way. But I would rather gamble on a guy who has been pretty consistent is whole time here. he's not a power pitcher, he is a finesse pitcher, ala Glavine. 4 years at 14 mil. a year is a bargain, give the guy his NTC and be done with it.

[BearSox]

IMO, this is all a massive smokescreen. Given (1) the fact that KW traded for two LHSPs this past winter, and (2) JR's decisions regarding Blackjack, Alvarez, and Fernandez back in the mid-'90s, I don't think that the Sox ever intended to extend Mark. This is a PR circus orchestrated by both sides to make them look like the good guy.

yeah, but it has back fired miserably.

[Dick Allen]

So if KW and JR give in and give Mark what he wants, what if Mark blows out his shoulder in September and his performance diminishes afterwards? They would have a very difficult time recouping even a tiny fraction of their $55-60 million investment.

 

I'm not saying that Mark's NTC demand is unreasonable, but you need to take off your fan glasses and look at this through the ownership's perspective. How have high-tier veteran pitchers performed after signing big four- and five-year contracts recently? What happened the last time that the Sox give a veteran pitcher one of those big four-year deals? What would've happened if JR had allowed Schueler to give Blackjack, Fernandez, and Alvarez deals like that back in the mid-90's. From what they've seen around the league recently and experienced personally, their chances of getting their money's worth from the deal that Mark supposedly wants is very low.

FWIW, this is Buerhle's 8th season. After 2009, he becomes a 5 and 10 man if he remains with the White Sox, so he would have an automatic no trade at that time. What this tells me, if the report that the NTC was the hang-up is true is the White Sox aren't going to let themselves be stuck with pitchers who have these rights. So Buerhle and Garland cannot be on KW's infamous "3 year board", because then they would have full veto rights in any trade. So if your Buerhle, you aren't going to sign for a "hometown discount" because its obvious they will trade you halfway through the contract to avoid having an automatic no trade. BTW, the last time the Sox gave a pitcher a 4 year deal, although techically a 3 year extension was Vazquez.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

You risk that with every player that signs a contract. What if Konerko would have blown out his knee after signing the contract he signed.

]

 

IIRC, Paulie doesn't have a NTC that goes throughout the duration of his contract. Pitchers are also much more subject to career-ending injuries than position players.

 

It's just part of the risk of signing players. What happens if you trade Buehrle for a can't miss prospect or two, and they blow their arms out the first year they are with us, and Buerhle goes on and pitches another 12 years without a problem.

 

For starters, they have still have $56 million to spend on lower-risk investments.

 

It's all a gamble if you look at it that way. But I would rather gamble on a guy who has been pretty consistent is whole time here. he's not a power pitcher, he is a finesse pitcher, ala Glavine. 4 years at 14 mil. a year is a bargain, give the guy his NTC and be done with it.

 

I don't disagree. But, again, it's very easy to see why the ownership is hesitant to do this. Historically, the vast majority of $50+ million deals given to veteran pitchers haven't worked out well.

[BearSox]

Yeah, Buehrle is going to be traded anyday now most likely, and this is most likely his last season with the White Sox. The writing was on the wall in the offseason when KW traded for Danks and Gio, and now when he drafted Poreda. That is 3 lefties with starting potential, and high upside. And no way we would have 4, let alone 3, lefties in the rotation.

 

It is evident that the White Sox wanted to sign him now, and trade him in the off season for more value, which isn't that bad of an idea, except it didn't work.

 

Oh well, I just want this whole situation over with already.

[whitesoxfan101]

I still think it is probably best for us to trade him in the long run, but to have it be this public and then negotiations break down over this is awful. And it sure as heck looks like they wanted to sign him just so they could end up trading him, which is even worse.

[BearSox]

You know what, KW and co. all had the right idea, but it was horrible, pitiful execution. All of the negotiations should have been under closed doors, and there shouldn't have been this much info released.

[Dick Allen]

You know what, KW and co. all had the right idea, but it was horrible, pitiful execution. All of the negotiations should have been under closed doors, and there shouldn't have been this much info released.

Its the "we really tried" technique that you knew was coming. They even went as far as saying the money was right, so the Sox wouldn't have come off as lowballing.

[supernuke]

I still think this was all done by Mark's camp. I think the Sox gave up on signing him last year when he turned down the contract that was offered then. They were activly shopping him so it is obvious that he was not in the plans. Someone on Marks side must have got the ball rolling on this recent round of talks and saying a hometown discount could be had. They then leak it to the media that Mark will sign for a discount so Mark looks like the good guy and then at the last minute they bring out the NTC knowing full well that the Sox wont go for it. Mission acomplished, Mark gets the big money in free agency and leaves looking like the good guy.

Edited June 30, 2007 by supernuke

[dagotony06]

]

 

IIRC, Paulie doesn't have a NTC that goes throughout the duration of his contract. Pitchers are also much more subject to career-ending injuries than position players.

I'm not getting the point you are trying to make? So just cause Paulie doesn't have a NTC and he blows out a knee, or better yet his hip starts really becoming a problem, do you think he will have any trade value anyway?? NTC in contracts don't mean s***. Most players who have them, usually waive them if the team really wants them gone. Take Jose for instance. He said he would waive his if the team asked him to.

For starters, they have still have $56 million to spend on lower-risk investments.

 

They wouldn't spend it, because no one is gonna be showing up at the park once they get rid of Buerhle, and JG follows him next year. We will have a rotation of JV,JC,Danks Gavin Floyd, who is nothing but a minor league all star and that's about it, he did the same thing when he was in Philly. He's a great pitcher as long as he is in the minors. And we will have Gio!!! I can't forget about that can't miss prospect!! Good grief!! We will be back to drawing about 15-16 thousand a game, so we shouldn't worry about spending that 56 million we would save from signing MB.

I don't disagree. But, again, it's very easy to see why the ownership is hesitant to do this. Historically, the vast majority of $50+ million deals given to veteran pitchers haven't worked out well.

 

We just gave a 35 year old a 3 year extension, now keep in mind that we dont' know how old this guy really is, but we had no problem giving him an extenison with an NTC, albeit only for the first year I believe, which he said he would waive, and you want me to believe that giving a 4 year deal worth 56mil. to a guy who has never had anything wrong with him, has been as solid as they come on and off the field, is more of a risk, than giving a supposedly 35 year old a 3 year extension. I'm not buying it. Not one bit. This reaks of JR coming off as cheap once again. They spend money foolishly. They give JC and JV extensions, but they are gonna let the face of the Org. walk because of a NTC, give me a f***ing break. And JG won't be too far behind him. I thought KW and Ozzie stressed pitching and defense wins championships!! Well pitching is your first line of defense, but we are gonna let one of the best ones in the game walk because f a NTC. They stress the importance of pitching, but yet they plan on building a pitching staff around the back end of our rptation in JC and JV. Inf***ingcredible!!!

[Kalapse]

Buehrle would have been guaranteed about $30M more than Contreras with no way of ridding yourself of Mark's contract if something does happen to him unlike with Jose.

[Rowand44]

Well I'd hope there is more to this than just the no trade clause, cause if that was really the only sticking point then I have a huge problem with Mr. Williams.