White Sox Acquire RP Tony Pena from ARI for Brandon Allen

[JPN366]

They'd be selling low on Atkins, but they gotta get rid of him to get his sucky-ness out of the lineup and allow Stewart (big fan of his) to become the clear cut 3B. I don't see what use the Reds would have for him unless they feel they should shut down Encarcion for the rest of the season to play it safe. Maybe they figure if he does decent they could get more value from some team in the offseason.

 

Atkins really should have been traded in the offseason when he had some value. He is the classic example of a mediocre player becoming good because he played half of his games in Coors. Look at his splits from 07 and 08, and even a bit this year, his OPS drops around 200 or more points away from Colorado. In 06, his splits were great on the road at home mainly because it was his first time around the league, IMO. He does play solid D though, IIRC, and does hit lefties well. His best role in the future will likely be a platoon player at 3B/1B.

 

Plus, considering the Rockies really need a setup guy who doesn't blow, Weathers makes some sense. If I'm colorado, I make the trade. It gives you a better chance at competing for the Wild Card.

 

As for the Carlos Gonzalez - Freddy Sanchez trade, if the Pirates pick up some of the money for his vesting option, I do that trade in a heartbeat if I'm colorado. Even if they don't pick up any of his contract, I still think I do it. Carlos Gonzalez is still riding on that hype he had back in Arizona, and the fact he could be traded for the 3rd time in 3 years tells you something. He's like a glorified Ryan Sweeney right now, IMO. I don't see why the Pirates would want another "potential filled OF" who hasn't shown he can hit for power, but they've done a lot of stupid things this year, IMO. I guess their plan is throw s*** at the wall and see what sticks.

 

Freddy Sanchez, while I think is a bit overrated, would thrive in Coors, and really make them a better contender. They could use him at 2B and make Barmes (who is doing solid this year) the utility guy.

 

Both of these trades would be good, IMO, for the Rockies if they want to be serious Wild Card contenders.

 

Although you make valid points, on the surface, those trade ideas sound offset.

[Chicago White Sox]

He's like a glorified Ryan Sweeney right now, IMO. I don't see why the Pirates would want another "potential filled OF" who hasn't shown he can hit for power, but they've done a lot of stupid things this year, IMO. I guess their plan is throw s*** at the wall and see what sticks.

 

Did someone sign onto your account and write this??? I thought you loved Ryan Sweeney

[Kyyle23]

Did someone sign onto your account and write this??? I thought you loved Ryan Sweeney

 

BearSox has finally come to terms with Ryan Sweeney and what he really is. Ryan broke his heart.

[BearSox]

BearSox has finally come to terms with Ryan Sweeney and what he really is. Ryan broke his heart.

 

 

it was a long bumpy ride that ended tragically....

 

 

I'd still take him, Gio, and DLS over Swisher though.

[witesoxfan]

Nick Swisher is a terrible baseball player. I'm so tired of the OBP and OPS argument... Guess what, bottom of the 9th, runner on 2nd, 2 outs, down by 1. You don't need a walk or strikeout. You need a basehit.

 

QFT

 

if you have a guy like Swisher, or even Adam Dunn in the lineup, that situation does not occur nearly as much. If player A hits a solo homer in the 5th inning to put his team up 4-3, that's the exact same result as him hitting a walk-off single in the bottom of the 9th to win 4-3 as well. In the end, OPS has become the easiest statistic to look at in regards to not only player success, but also team success too. Batting average has become virtually meaningless because of it, thanks in huge part to slugging percentage (which is quite honestly a much better version of batting average)

Edited July 10, 2009 by witesoxfan

[daa84]

After the last post that said he was good at baseball, I was going to post "correction, he is OK at baseball" but passed. Now I'll say it, he's not terrible, and he's not good either. He's ok. He's about a league average outfielder, and has a crappy batting average (albeit with some pop) and strikes out a lot, but a really good OBP raises his status from "bad baseball player" to "all right player." People get carried away talking about his OBP making him underrated, this doesn't mean he's good. It just means he's not bad.

this is exactly right. I'll frankly always disagree with people like bearsox who insist swisher is a "terrible" baseball player. Is swisher is a star? hell no. Is he a decent major leaguer? Yes. And could we use a decent major leaguer in CF right now instead of Dwise and brian Anderson? Absolutely, and IMO the "blind swisher hate" comes from people who can't even admit that.

 

Regardless of what your opinions of him are you must admit that KW got a horrendous return for him. When you get a guy a who was DFAd 1 month into hte season, a guy with a 10+ ERA in charlotte and a minor league reliever (albeit a promising one) its bad value for a guy who will end the season with 20-25 HR and a .360 obp.

 

I'm even willing to admit that the Javy Vazquez deal was probably not the greatest deal either, but at least in that deal we got a guy who looks to be a future everyday player in Flowers, and we were able to save 4 more mil over what we saved in the swisher deal

[daa84]

btw this was kind of interesting and is actually exactly how i felt abotu allen....nice bat but probably not a regular...more along the lines of Ross gload or micah hoffpaueir....even if you hate keith law (because i know many do) this is at least the take of a scout he talked to

 

Pat (Mesa, Az)

 

What are your thoughts on the Tony Pena trade to the White Sox? What type of major league player do you project Allen to be?

Keith Law

(1:02 PM)

 

Haven't seen him, but maybe five hours before that deal was announced, I talked to a scout who had just seen Allen. He liked his bat, mentioning the ability to hit over the ability to hit for power, but said he didn't think Allen was an everyday player.

Keith Law

(1:02 PM)

 

I like Pena as a pickup for Chicago, by the way. I wonder if they've taught him a cutter yet.

[SoxFan562004]

this is exactly right. I'll frankly always disagree with people like bearsox who insist swisher is a "terrible" baseball player. Is swisher is a star? hell no. Is he a decent major leaguer? Yes. And could we use a decent major leaguer in CF right now instead of Dwise and brian Anderson? Absolutely, and IMO the "blind swisher hate" comes from people who can't even admit that.

 

Regardless of what your opinions of him are you must admit that KW got a horrendous return for him. When you get a guy a who was DFAd 1 month into hte season, a guy with a 10+ ERA in charlotte and a minor league reliever (albeit a promising one) its bad value for a guy who will end the season with 20-25 HR and a .360 obp.

Good post. I'm sure people can read a few of my posts and think I have blind love for Swisher, while that's not true, I think the Sox would be a better team with him than without him this year. Now, we can argue about his contract, and after what Dunn and Abreu signed for, I lean towards the camp that maybe dumping him wasn't the worst idea, however, to call him a terrible base ball player is wrong IMO.

 

First, he was playing a new regular position of CF, which has some effect on a player. Also, I'm going to give some evil stats here, so please stop reading if you're not a fan, if not I'll save some people the regular responses...

 

baseball is not played on paper

 

I want to see it with my eyes

 

My grand daddy didn't need no OBP or OPS

 

stats aren't everything

 

I'll take the opinion of a one eyed peg legged scout over some fancy numbers

 

derp der derp...

 

(Please, don't label me as a stat head either, i think there's many things, especially fielding, that need to be scouted on film or in person, but stats should be considered important and a great way to get value on some players, and I'm just having some fun with people who hate stats)

 

OK, his career clutch stats aren't horrible and if memory serves me right he his at least one walk off or clutch home run for the Sox last year (it was at home, I can't remember the details).

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...=Career&t=b

 

Also, in his career, and especially in 08, he hit really well at the Cell

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...ar=2008&t=b

 

He also takes a lot of pitches and has a good career OBP, which outside of Thome and when Q isn't playing, the Sox lack. That's crucial to me because generally BPs around the league suck, and the more pitches seen the quicker they're gotten into.

 

BearSox, you do a lot of posting on Future sox board, especially around the draft. Baseball is so much more than a handful of ABs in certain situations. For Mitchell you didn't like the pick initially, then slammed him for one AB (I believe his first televised one against a LHP) then came around after the WS was over. Baseball is a game of failure and to hand pick a few ABs isn't fair to the player, you have to look at the players body of work. I think you're a good poster who contributed a lot of good knowledge to the draft because you took the time to read scouting reports a lot of people didn't and passed that knowledge along, but I think you were unfair to Mitchell during the beginning of the draft and Swisher. Does that make me right? Absolutely not and what makes this board fun!

 

daa84 is right when he says Swisher isn't a star, but he's a solid player (maybe better off in the NL because he can jump from corner OF to 1b and give you decent D at either position) that had a bad year with the Sox and is getting trashed on this board. Not all games have clutch situations, you need a solid roster to help you get you "easy" wins during the season and I think Swisher can help.

Edited July 10, 2009 by SoxFan562004

[scenario]

Why did this get hijacked into becoming a Swisher thread?

Edited July 10, 2009 by scenario

[SoxFan562004]

Why did this get hijacked into becoming a Swisher thread?

lol, sorry mods! I was a willing participant in that, erase if need be!

 

He's like politics and religion to some people!!

Edited July 10, 2009 by SoxFan562004

[caulfield12]

Good post. I'm sure people can read a few of my posts and think I have blind love for Swisher, while that's not true, I think the Sox would be a better team with him than without him this year. Now, we can argue about his contract, and after what Dunn and Abreu signed for, I lean towards the camp that maybe dumping him wasn't the worst idea, however, to call him a terrible base ball player is wrong IMO.

 

First, he was playing a new regular position of CF, which has some effect on a player. Also, I'm going to give some evil stats here, so please stop reading if you're not a fan, if not I'll save some people the regular responses...

 

baseball is not played on paper

 

I want to see it with my eyes

 

My grand daddy didn't need no OBP or OPS

 

stats aren't everything

 

I'll take the opinion of a one eyed peg legged scout over some fancy numbers

 

derp der derp...

 

(Please, don't label me as a stat head either, i think there's many things, especially fielding, that need to be scouted on film or in person, but stats should be considered important and a great way to get value on some players, and I'm just having some fun with people who hate stats)

 

OK, his career clutch stats aren't horrible and if memory serves me right he his at least one walk off or clutch home run for the Sox last year (it was at home, I can't remember the details).

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...=Career&t=b

 

Also, in his career, and especially in 08, he hit really well at the Cell

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...ar=2008&t=b

 

He also takes a lot of pitches and has a good career OBP, which outside of Thome and when Q isn't playing, the Sox lack. That's crucial to me because generally BPs around the league suck, and the more pitches seen the quicker they're gotten into.

 

BearSox, you do a lot of posting on Future sox board, especially around the draft. Baseball is so much more than a handful of ABs in certain situations. For Mitchell you didn't like the pick initially, then slammed him for one AB (I believe his first televised one against a LHP) then came around after the WS was over. Baseball is a game of failure and to hand pick a few ABs isn't fair to the player, you have to look at the players body of work. I think you're a good poster who contributed a lot of good knowledge to the draft because you took the time to read scouting reports a lot of people didn't and passed that knowledge along, but I think you were unfair to Mitchell during the beginning of the draft and Swisher. Does that make me right? Absolutely not and what makes this board fun!

 

daa84 is right when he says Swisher isn't a star, but he's a solid player (maybe better off in the NL because he can jump from corner OF to 1b and give you decent D at either position) that had a bad year with the Sox and is getting trashed on this board. Not all games have clutch situations, you need a solid roster to help you get you "easy" wins during the season and I think Swisher can help.

 

Swisher hit that bomb off Joel Zumaya and the Tigers, that's the one I remember the most vividly listening on radio

[ThunderBolt]

Stats are only a part of why I call him a bad baseball player. I call him a bad baseball player mainly because he doesn't act/play like a baseball player should. I don't like the way he carries himself on the field, I think he's got a god awful approach at bat, he doesn't seem to take anything seriously, he crys when he gets benched, etc. Big whoop, he walks a lot. I still say he's a bad baseball player.

 

I also throw BA and Fields into the category of bad baseball players. Neither of them seem to know the fundamentals of the game. Well, BA knows how to field and run, but he has no clue at bat and is just going basically got by so far with god given talent. But with both of them, you see little leaguers with better swings then them. Good athletes with talent, but just bad baseball players.

I think all baseball decisions should be made depending on how Bear Sox feels about a player. That'll be a hell of team.

[southsider2k5]

Well after self-admittedly watching Pena for the first time during the blowout yesterday, nothing he throws is straight, and he looks like a maximum effort guy who would have problems spotting his pitches because of his very busy delivery. (lotsa arms and legs moving around) I could see him being a guy they take a little bit of effort out of to get a little more consistancy in his pitches, while keeping some of the movement.