Why not? The official "Alex Rios Sucks" Thread

[sircaffey]

Since we're on this topic, why would we conclude that Rick Hahn had no say in any of those moves?

Because you can't conclude he did have any say. You're innocent until proven guilty.

[iamshack]

After Rios' second half last season, I really wanted the Sox to ride the value he built back up and trade him for a crap prospect, and maybe move some other pieces to find a replacement. That contract was bad last year, and is still bad now, getting out from under it would have been amazing.

For whatever reason, his contract doesn't bug me nearly as much as some others because he plays a premium defensive position well. If he plays good defense, I at least feel it's not a complete waste, especially considering the complete lack of replacements within our system.

it's basically Rios or Lilli.

 

Peavy's contract bugs me infinitely more than Rios'.

[Steve9347]

Manny was a flyer, and we all knew that.

Dude, $5 million for one month is not a flyer.

[Steve9347]

Rios

Manny

Edwin/Hudson

Swisher

Kotsay as DH

 

Kenny's on quite a streak.

You know, I forgot to list it too because, well, JFP had a nice start so we're all hope and happiness, but add Jake Peavy to the list of epic failure.

 

I mean, trading for an injured starter just can't ever be a good idea.

[iamshack]

Dude, $5 million for one month is not a flyer.

It was money that was going to be spent on Manny or nothing at all.

 

 

[caulfield12]

And the obvious problem with dumping Rios (and it's moot due to its impossibility now) is that it once again shows the complete disaster which has been CF for the White Sox since the Aaron Rowand years.

 

While never a huge Rowand fan, at least he was an average major leaguer or above for his time with us, especially considering his contract and age.

 

We've gone through Brian Anderson, Mackowiak, Jerry Owens, Erstad, Swisher, Pods, Griffey, Wise and probably forgetting at least 2-3 more...not to mention trading Anthony Webster, Chris B. Young and Jeremy Reed.

 

If nothing else, this development failure led to 2 other related fiascos..."reaching" for Alex Rios based on talent/potential alone AND having to trade for Juan Pierre at this stage in his career. I can't even remember the last time we really had a GOOD lead-off hitter over a long period of time. Maybe Lance Johnson or Tim Raines in his first couple of years with us, although he wasn't nearly the base-stealing threat he'd been at that point. Or Ray Durham.

 

And now Mitchell has a LONG LONG path to get to the point where he's even Carl Crawford Lite.

Edited May 24, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

You know, I forgot to list it too because, well, JFP had a nice start so we're all hope and happiness, but add Jake Peavy to the list of epic failure.

 

I mean, trading for an injured starter just can't ever be a good idea.

 

And the lack of results from the Javy trade, although that always felt like more of a salary dump and "change of scenery" trade...a mutual parting of the ways after how 2008 ended.

 

But never would have thought in my wildest dreams that Lillibridge would be far and away the biggest "prize" from that deal.

[iamshack]

And the obvious problem with dumping Rios (and it's moot due to its impossibility now) is that it once again shows the complete disaster which has been CF for the White Sox since the Aaron Rowand years.

 

While never a huge Rowand fan, at least he was an average major leaguer or above for his time with us, especially considering his contract and age.

 

We've gone through Brian Anderson, Mackowiak, Jerry Owens, Erstad, Swisher, Pods, Griffey, Wise and probably forgetting at least 2-3 more...not to mention trading Anthony Webster, Chris B. Young and Jeremy Reed.

 

If nothing else, this development failure led to 2 other related fiascos..."reaching" for Alex Rios based on talent/potential alone AND having to trade for Juan Pierre at this stage in his career. I can't even remember the last time we really had a GOOD lead-off hitter over a long period of time. Maybe Lance Johnson or Tim Raines in his first couple of years with us, although he wasn't nearly the base-stealing threat he'd been at that point. Or Ray Durham.

 

And now Mitchell has a LONG LONG path to get to the point where he's even Carl Crawford Lite.

 

Rios was never just potential alone. The gamble you were taking was on his character/desire/consistency. The talent had manifested itself in actual production before, just not consistently.

 

Regardless, I still think he's close...I'm not ready to call this a failure yet.

 

[Steve9347]

Regardless, I still think he's close...I'm not ready to call this a failure yet.

I just don't see it. Dude's rocked a .695 OPS to raise his season's value to a whopping .573.

 

This follows a .684 OPS in 65 games following the All-Star Break last year. That's an awful lot of consistently bad baseball.

 

429 at bats of dogs*** baseball, but yeah, he's close!

[caulfield12]

Rios was never just potential alone. The gamble you were taking was on his character/desire/consistency. The talent had manifested itself in actual production before, just not consistently.

 

Regardless, I still think he's close...I'm not ready to call this a failure yet.

 

 

Maybe that was a stretch. Potential to rebound after looking horrid. It's the whole "back of the baseball card" argument, ignoring the novedive.

 

Not unlike the Yankees taking Swisher off our hands, but with much less inherent risk.

 

Although I'm sure some stats person who works for agents who represent "defense first" players will keep pushing and pushing to develop a formula to say that Gold Glove defense is STILL worth $12-13 million per season even with a sub 600 OPS (to think we would have been happy with Anderson at 675-700) because of the dearth of quality hitters at that position, not unlike shortstop before the steroids era.

 

And, the other problem is that Rios isn't playing nearly as well defensively as he has in the past. He hasn't been close to Pierre bad, but there have been a number of memorable misplays already in 2011.

 

Enough to where you could make an argument that Lillibridge was at least his equal for 2011, if not better.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

Peavy's contract bugs me infinitely more than Rios'.

See, I disagree with that. I supported both moves at the time, but I was a much bigger fan of the Peavy pickup. The value of an ace is significant in the post-season. Getting a guy with ace potential is practically impossible, unless you have a Dan Haren package of prospects available or have $150 million to spend in free agency. So I was glad KW rolled the dice on Peavy, even if there was a reasonable chance it wouldn't work. I'll happily take such a risk if it improves my chance of winning a World Series.

 

A good CF on the otherhand is easier to attain, especially if you're willing to spend $55 million. I was still willing to gamble on Rios due to his immense potential, but I had much more worries about him due to his past struggles.

[Steve9347]

See, I disagree with that. I supported both moves at the time, but I was a much bigger fan of the Peavy pickup. The value of an ace is significant in the post-season. Getting a guy with ace potential is practically impossible, unless you have a Dan Haren package of prospects available or have $150 million to spend in free agency. So I was glad KW rolled the dice on Peavy, even if there was a reasonable chance it wouldn't work. I'll happily take such a risk if it improves my chance of winning a World Series.

 

A good CF on the otherhand is easier to attain, especially if you're willing to spend $55 million. I was still willing to gamble on Rios due to his immense potential, but I had much more worries about him due to his past struggles.

So. Way to go with the creative screen name.

[caulfield12]

See, I disagree with that. I supported both moves at the time, but I was a much bigger fan of the Peavy pickup. The value of an ace is significant in the post-season. Getting a guy with ace potential is practically impossible, unless you have a Dan Haren package of prospects available or have $150 million to spend in free agency. So I was glad KW rolled the dice on Peavy, even if there was a reasonable chance it wouldn't work. I'll happily take such a risk if it improves my chance of winning a World Series.

 

A good CF on the otherhand is easier to attain, especially if you're willing to spend $55 million. I was still willing to gamble on Rios due to his immense potential, but I had much more worries about him due to his past struggles.

 

That's probably the ONE great move the Angels have made in the last 2-3 years, picking up Haren when he was hurt and not 100%. For most of this season, he's looked like a legit top-of-the-rotation guy again.

 

Scott Kazmir, not so much.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Manny was a flyer, and we all knew that.

 

I seem to remember the Dunn signing being overwhelmingly backed here.

 

Funny now that most people seem to be forgetting that already.

 

Who is forgetting it? Everyone is aware that it was backed. Just because it was backed by the fan base does not mean that Kenny gets away with it since it's turning out to be a bad move.

[StrangeSox]

Who is forgetting it? Everyone is aware that it was backed. Just because it was backed by the fan base does not mean that Kenny gets away with it since it's turning out to be a bad move.

 

You can't fault someone for making what is by all appearances a good move if it doesn't pan out. Like playing poker and getting beat even after making all of the right moves because some ass got lucky on the last card.

[Milkman delivers]

You can't fault someone for making what is by all appearances a good move if it doesn't pan out. Like playing poker and getting beat even after making all of the right moves because some ass got lucky on the last card.

 

Yes, you can. You can especially blame the person when he's made quite a few bad moves and signings in the recent past.

[Steve9347]

Who is forgetting it? Everyone is aware that it was backed. Just because it was backed by the fan base does not mean that Kenny gets away with it since it's turning out to be a bad move.

Who cares? Adam Dunn WILL bust out of his funk; I don't think his lack of production over this month and a half should even be considered when we talk about firing Kenny. He's built himself quite the resume of failure, no need to add Dunn to his other very fireable offenses.

[Milkman delivers]

Who cares? Adam Dunn WILL bust out of his funk; I don't think his lack of production over this month and a half should even be considered when we talk about firing Kenny. He's built himself quite the resume of failure, no need to add Dunn to his other very fireable offenses.

 

The point is that he's done plenty to be fired, yes.

[Chicago White Sox]

That's probably the ONE great move the Angels have made in the last 2-3 years, picking up Haren when he was hurt and not 100%. For most of this season, he's looked like a legit top-of-the-rotation guy again.

 

Scott Kazmir, not so much.

Yeah, I completely agree. If you can pick up a potential ace on the cheap, I think you have to do it. Haren has been a great example of that. Hopefully Peavy can stay healthy the rest of the way and can regain his previous form.

[Balta1701]

Question.

 

What happens if we fired KW now and suddenly Dunn snaps out of his funk and Peavy rocks the rest of the season and the Sox grab the Central?

 

Do we apologize and hire him back?

[fathom]

I don't blame KW one bit for the Dunn move. It was a guy who fit a need and we locked him up at a very fair contract. It's the terrible Swisher deals, the mediocre return for Javy, the ridiculous Hudson/Jackson swap and the Rios claim that have killed this team's flexibility. It's hard for a GM to miss as much as KW has the last few years.

[Balta1701]

I don't blame KW one bit for the Dunn move. It was a guy who fit a need and we locked him up at a very fair contract. It's the terrible Swisher deals, the mediocre return for Javy, the ridiculous Hudson/Jackson swap and the Rios claim that have killed this team's flexibility. It's hard for a GM to miss as much as KW has the last few years.

Seriously?

[fathom]

Seriously?

 

Yes seriously. I know you've tried to argue that KW got all he could back for Swisher (which I disagree with), but I'll never understand what the rush was to trade Javy so early in the offseason. Personally, I think KW got infatuated with Tyler Flowers during Arizona Fall League, and pulled the trigger way too fast.

[Balta1701]

Yes seriously. I know you've tried to argue that KW got all he could back for Swisher (which I disagree with), but I'll never understand what the rush was to trade Javy so early in the offseason. Personally, I think KW got infatuated with Tyler Flowers during Arizona Fall League, and pulled the trigger way too fast.

Javy Vazquez had $22 million or so sitting on his contract and had basically been left off of the postseason roster. We got the Braves to absorb that entire contract and got something with a chance of success back.

 

A year later, the Braves got a great season out of Vazquez, and they dumped him on the Yankees for Melky Cabrera, who they cut within the space of a year for being terrible.

[fathom]

A year later, the Braves got a great season out of Vazquez, and they dumped him on the Yankees for Melky Cabrera, who they cut within the space of a year for being terrible.

 

Wasn't that also after they turned down C. Hart for him?