Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:20 PM) You're against signing him for the next five years? If he did, you'd want to flip him for more pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:21 PM) If he did, you'd want to flip him for more pitching. He's not Latino. Even though I reiterate I am nothing if not Pro-Latino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:20 PM) You're against signing him for the next five years? To do so would be a much higher cost, maybe $25 million, and we're not even convinced he can be a starter since we put him in the big leagues to try to save Ozzie's job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:27 PM) To do so would be a much higher cost, maybe $25 million, and we're not even convinced he can be a starter since we put him in the big leagues to try to save Ozzie's job. Split the difference between 14 and 25, say 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) Split the difference between 14 and 25, say 20. And if he winds up back in the bullpen or hurt, that's a huge write-off cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:31 PM) And if he winds up back in the bullpen or hurt, that's a huge write-off cost. So you would not do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:33 PM) So you would not do it? If I'm convinced he's going to be a starter, sure. But we dropped him down to 60 innings last year, which means he's got 2-3 years of building up his arm again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:34 PM) If I'm convinced he's going to be a starter, sure. But we dropped him down to 60 innings last year, which means he's got 2-3 years of building up his arm again. 3 years? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:37 PM) 3 years? No. Going from 60 innings to 200 innings in 2 seasons is a roll of the dice at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:45 PM) Going from 60 innings to 200 innings in 2 seasons is a roll of the dice at best. I think its effect is overrated. Besides, the Sox aren't going to win anything in the next 2 years. Edited December 10, 2011 by Marty34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 03:47 PM) I think its effect is overrated. Besides, the Sox aren't going to win anything in the next 2 years. Rebuilding is going to be a daunting enough task. But if it were up to you, yes, we'd definitely be the AL version of the Pirates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 02:02 PM) And look at the state those franchises are in right now? They spent their millions and millions and millions and won nothing (not even a single WS appearance). So instead of spending millions JR should just be pocketing it? The White Sox successfully rebuilt beginning after the 1986 season. 1990 was the return to prominence. Even drafting guys like Thomas, McDowell, Ventura and Fernandez, that didn't net them a WS either, so I guess by your standards that rebuild was a total failure, however, in 2005, picking up retreads like Dye and El Duque, they did win the WS. Go figure. The White Sox have many advantages over their division counterparts. Its time they use them. A new GM, the right GM, would have this team dominating. The GM we have now apparently has now become content to be in first place a few days during the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:23 PM) So instead of spending millions JR should just be pocketing it? The White Sox successfully rebuilt beginning after the 1986 season. 1990 was the return to prominence. Even drafting guys like Thomas, McDowell, Ventura and Fernandez, that didn't net them a WS either, so I guess by your standards that rebuild was a total failure, however, in 2005, picking up retreads like Dye and El Duque, they did win the WS. Go figure. The White Sox have many advantages over their division counterparts. Its time they use them. A new GM, the right GM, would have this team dominating. The GM we have now apparently has now become content to be in first place a few days during the season. Honestly, there's no talking to you. We can go back and forth all day and night. You can poke all kinds of holes in rebuilding. I can do just the same in going with the status quo or throwing millions at free agents or "name" guys. Ozzie's gone. Walker's gone. Mark's gone. We've got a manager that's never managed. Like it or not, the franchise is going in a different direction. But you can do your part and stop going to games to send a message that you're not happy. I will continue to go to games, even if on paper 3rd/4th place is more realistic than 1st. Yes, KW sucks and I want him gone. He offered to step down and Jerry wasn't having it. So KW's got one last chance. In his defense, and this really pains me, we've never seen KW in any mode other than go-for-it mode. It'll be interesting to see if he FINALLY learns from his past mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHITESOXRANDY Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Now, the Sox are backing off rebuilding according to JR. I knew they would never do it. Say hello to 3rd or 4th place thru 2020 +. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:49 PM) Now, the Sox are backing off rebuilding according to JR. I knew they would never do it. Say hello to 3rd or 4th place thru 2020 +. Want to be a little more specific? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:36 PM) Honestly, there's no talking to you. We can go back and forth all day and night. You can poke all kinds of holes in rebuilding. I can do just the same in going with the status quo or throwing millions at free agents or "name" guys. Ozzie's gone. Walker's gone. Mark's gone. We've got a manager that's never managed. Like it or not, the franchise is going in a different direction. But you can do your part and stop going to games to send a message that you're not happy. I will continue to go to games, even if on paper 3rd/4th place is more realistic than 1st. Yes, KW sucks and I want him gone. He offered to step down and Jerry wasn't having it. So KW's got one last chance. In his defense, and this really pains me, we've never seen KW in any mode other than go-for-it mode. It'll be interesting to see if he FINALLY learns from his past mistakes. Ozzie's gone, that's supposed to be good. Walker's gone, everyone should hit .300. Buehrle gone without an offer...........great move by your standards, horrible by mine. Ventura never managed before? So what. Didn't Brenly win the WS the first season he ever managed? Will Robin be splitting the atom or something in the dugout? Do you think during the 15 years or so he played, he paid no attention? Its not like he has to install a new offense or defense. Its baseball. If it all requires years of experience at the major league level, none of us should have anything to say. This is not the hardest division to win. Mistakes were made. The two glaring mistakes costing the Sox about $26 million a year are going to be around for a while. I'm slightly optimistic with Peavy, not as optimistic as JR, but certainly feel unless he gets hurt again, he will be better. Sale will probably be good if he remains healthy, but in no way is he going to be able to match Buehrle's innings. We have a guy who can't pick players who have proven they can play making decisions. To let him chose guys who haven't proved anything yet could mean this team will be awful for at least 5 years. Where does attendance go then? If then guys can play, they have to get paid, no one is coming to the park and to think they will suddenly hop back to 2 million fans after 4,5,6 years of being totally irrelavant is beyond silly, the Sox won't be able to pay those players, so guess what, more prospects. Face it, the Sox 2008 first round pick was in the major leagues in 2009 and in 2010 you were already calling him a bust. You don't have patience for rebuilding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:49 PM) Now, the Sox are backing off rebuilding according to JR. I knew they would never do it. Say hello to 3rd or 4th place thru 2020 +. They don't want to say rebuilding, although KW already did. Its not good for ticket sales. First installments due 12/14. Considering Buehrle was wanted by 14 teams and would have pitched for the Sox for less of a team committment than any other team, and the Sox didn't even extend an offer, I believe everyone knows where this is heading. Edited December 10, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtySox Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 04:51 PM) Want to be a little more specific? JR: "I don't think we're rebuilding because rebuilding is when you get bad in order to get good," he said. "We fell short last season but we didn't fall a lot short. I think we could very well contend for the division if [Adam] Dunn and [Alex Rios] bounce back. And a guy I think will really bounce back is [Jake] Peavy because that's the history of guys the second year following injuries. "I don't expect us to be bad." It's rebuilding/retooling, however people want to spin it. Just trying to placate the fans that will stamp their feet and pout about not kind of being competitive the next few years. Edited December 10, 2011 by DirtySox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) lmao@we didn't fall a lot short. I guess 16 games is within striking distance. Yeah, I definitely agree with you, dirty, now that I read it again. They'll never come out and say they're punting a season. Then Dickallen, Rockraines, etc, will threaten to discontinue their season tickets because youth is bad. Familiar expensive vets is good. Edited December 10, 2011 by Jordan4life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 In our division, you should be able to compete more quickly if you have the starting pitching. Still, I'm a bit concerned that we're doing this halfway. Obviously we can't deal Dunn/Rios/Peavy just yet. But they really have to go into the season with the roster as it stands or just basically gut the whole thing....which means goodbye to Danks, Thornton, AJ, Quentin, Konerko and Alexei Ramirez. Probably you keep Floyd, Frasor, Ohman and Crain around just for their veteran presence and to stabilize things, but there's also a compelling argument for dumping all of the players I mentioned if you still can't compete in 2013. The outlook is not as dire as it looks...nor will it look as rosy as post 2005/entering 2006 again for a LONG time. My guess is that one of the starters and Thornton will go, along with Quentin. At mid-season or in the 2012 offseason, anyone on the roster might be up for grabs. We'll also have a lot better idea what Viciedo, DeAza, Molina, Stewart, Reed, Beckham, and Morel are going to give us over a full season. Sale, to me, seems like the key to the whole puzzle. If he's great, we're back closer to competitiveness. If he fizzles, then there's absolutely no reason not to do a full rebuild and gut the entire team. You also can't feel that comfortable with Humber as your #3 guy going into a season if most of these guys are traded, but there's no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 11:27 AM) The Rangers are another prime example of the impact a top-flight front office can have. How many top-10 picks have they collected the last 6-7 years? But like you said, it's easier for the anti-rebuild squad to cite the worst-case scenarios. It's funny to me. With Rios, Peavy and Dunn still here, there won't be a full-blown rebuild regardless. PK and AJ are still here. The anti-rebuild guys can simply go into next year hoping and praying that Peavy goes circa '07 and makes 30+ starts (lol at that), Rios FINALLY lives up to his tools/talent (double lol at that), and Adam Dunn remembers how to not be the worst baseball player to ever live. Even with Buehrle, all those things would have to happen for there to be any chance at competing at all. That should be enough for some people. If all those things happen, they should be right in the thick of it. KW will dive into what's left from a pathetic farm system and go get some past his prime, expensive vet to 'put us over the top'. Same M.O of the last 10 years. The anti-rebuild guys are happy because that's familiar and what they know. You mean the Rangers who never really unloaded their expensive and at times underpreforming talent, such as Michael Young and waited for them to bounce back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 07:36 PM) You mean the Rangers who never really unloaded their expensive and at times underpreforming talent, such as Michael Young and waited for them to bounce back? "They didn't?" The Rangers payroll was #3 in MLB in 2002, stayed up over $100 million in 2003, and in 2004, their total payroll was halved to $55 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 06:40 PM) "They didn't?" The Rangers payroll was #3 in MLB in 2002, stayed up over $100 million in 2003, and in 2004, their total payroll was halved to $55 million. And that had nothing to do with their revival, which started in the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 10, 2011 -> 07:41 PM) And that had nothing to do with their revival, which started in the last few years. Really? And selling off that 1b with the funny sounding name for players a couple years later had nothing to do with it? And their 5 years of struggling ahd nothing to do with them being able to build up that talent level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Even Balta has seen the light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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