Rios, $1M traded to Rangers

[iamshack]

To move Sale, I am asking for Bogaerts, Bradley, Ranaudo, Webster, and Cecchini. Even then, I'm taking my sweet ass time making the deal.

I understand the WAR thing...I'm not sure people use it correctly on this site all the time, but I get it. But do you think that having 2-3 very good young position players added to our mix would be a net positive, even if Chris continues down his current path of awesomeness?

[Buehrle>Wood]

To move Sale, I am asking for Bogaerts, Bradley, Ranaudo, Webster, and Cecchini. Even then, I'm taking my sweet ass time making the deal.

Im not doing that either.

[iamshack]

Sale doesn't go unless you don't expect to competitive for years. I bet Santiago/Quintana would fetch more than you'd think in the offseason. Pitching market will be just as thin as it was at this year's deadline, and we're talking about pre-arbitration guys now.

I don't expect to be competitive for at least 2-3 years. Not saying it couldn't happen, but not expecting it.

 

What do you think would bring more excitement to this team? A few very good, exciting, young and nationally recognizable position players, or Chris Sale?

 

Again, if we didn't seem to have a surplus of pitching I would understand, but we do...to go along with a dearth of position player talent.

[Balta1701]

I understand the WAR thing...I'm not sure people use it correctly on this site all the time, but I get it. But do you think that having 2-3 very good young position players added to our mix would be a net positive, even if Chris continues down his current path of awesomeness?

For a counterpoint, let's look at San Francisco. They have won 2 world series now on the strength of their top front line starting pitching with "barely enough to be adequate" offense. They had to switch one of those starters from Lincecum to Bumgarner, and they've gotten a big contribution from their catcher...but that is a team with 2 world series in what, 4 years, keyed entirely by having a top of the line pair of starters leading their rotation.

 

Let's hypothetically say the Sox added Rondon to Sale at the top of that rotation. Now we're talking about a legitimately dominant possible pitching staff. The kind of pitching staff that on its own wins world series trophies, plural.

[Quin]

For a counterpoint, let's look at San Francisco. They have won 2 world series now on the strength of their top front line starting pitching with "barely enough to be adequate" offense. They had to switch one of those starters from Lincecum to Bumgarner, and they've gotten a big contribution from their catcher...but that is a team with 2 world series in what, 4 years, keyed entirely by having a top of the line pair of starters leading their rotation.

 

Let's hypothetically say the Sox added Rondon to Sale at the top of that rotation. Now we're talking about a legitimately dominant possible pitching staff. The kind of pitching staff that on its own wins world series trophies, plural.

 

I'd be ok with Sale, Quintana, Santiago, Rondon and Rienzo/Johnson.

[iamshack]

For a counterpoint, let's look at San Francisco. They have won 2 world series now on the strength of their top front line starting pitching with "barely enough to be adequate" offense. They had to switch one of those starters from Lincecum to Bumgarner, and they've gotten a big contribution from their catcher...but that is a team with 2 world series in what, 4 years, keyed entirely by having a top of the line pair of starters leading their rotation.

 

Let's hypothetically say the Sox added Rondon to Sale at the top of that rotation. Now we're talking about a legitimately dominant possible pitching staff. The kind of pitching staff that on its own wins world series trophies, plural.

Absolutely...but let's face it, is it not pretty clear now that winning a WS takes a LOT of different things coming together than just what you would think is a few frontline SP's? I'm not sure SF's model is one that can be replicated in the AL, and I am not sure it should even be attempted to be replicated in the NL. Not saying that having outstanding pitching talent isn't a good thing; just that I'm not sure SF's success is predicated on having "two frontline starters" or moreso having a s***load of very good pitching in general. We have the potential to have the latter.

 

What if the Giants had traded Lincecum prior to the 2012 season? Would they have still won in 2012? Would they be winning in 2013?

[Buehrle>Wood]

I don't expect to be competitive for at least 2-3 years. Not saying it couldn't happen, but not expecting it.

 

What do you think would bring more excitement to this team? A few very good, exciting, young and nationally recognizable position players, or Chris Sale?

 

Again, if we didn't seem to have a surplus of pitching I would understand, but we do...to go along with a dearth of position player talent.

You want nationally recognizable players and your idea is to trade Chris Sale for prospects??

[Chicago White Sox]

Trading Sale will never happen anytime soon, as no team will give up the theoretical value it would take to get him. And I personally think trading him is the dumbest idea ever UNLESS you are certain he will break down in the near future. Otherwise, you would simply be gambling on unproven prospects using one of the most valuable players in baseball. The potential payoff if you hit on all the prospects is just not worth the risk you miss on them all, which is incredibly more likely.

[iamshack]

You want nationally recognizable players and your idea is to trade Chris Sale for prospects??

Yes, everyday players.

[iamshack]

Trading Sale will never happen anytime soon, as no team will give up the theoretical value it would take to get him. And I personally think trading him is the dumbest idea ever UNLESS you are certain he will break down in the near future. Otherwise, you would simply be gambling on unproven prospects using one of the most valuable players in baseball. The potential payoff if you hit on all the prospects is just not worth the risk you miss on them all, which is incredibly more likely.

 

Hah...I don't think anyone is qualified to say whether Chris will certainly break down in the near future, other than maybe Chris.

 

That being the case, again, I absolutely agree it would be a risk-filled transaction.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Yes, everyday players.

Being prospects and being nationally recognizable are so incredibly far apart so that makes for one terrible plan.

[Chicago White Sox]

Hah...I don't think anyone is qualified to say whether Chris will certainly break down in the near future, other than maybe Chris.

 

That being the case, again, I absolutely agree it would be a risk-filled transaction.

I just don't see a need to take that risk when we already have a rotation of Sale, Quintana, Santiago, Danks, Rienzo, & Johnson and should be able to afford a $125M payroll on a regular basis. Fixing the offense in one offseason will be difficult, but I think it can be done in 2 years if we spend intelligently and Garcia & Semien develop into solid contributors next year.

[Balta1701]

What if the Giants had traded Lincecum prior to the 2012 season? Would they have still won in 2012? Would they be winning in 2013?

Maybe...depends on whether what they got back actually worked out and did so in a reasonable amount of time. Worth considering though...the reason why that makes sense in hindsight is that his production fell off a cliff. If people are expecting something similar to happen to Sale then yes he should be dealt, but that's the only reason anyone gives that gets most people agreeing...if the team thinks he can't stay healthy then yes he should be on the trading block.

 

The fact that "Everyone other than Konerko and Sale" were supposed to be on the trading block this deadline according to press reports suggests to me that the team doesn't think he'll have these problems. Ditto the extension.

[Eminor3rd]

If you trade Sale, that really awesome staff is way less awesome. It's already taken a hit with the loss of Peavy. I don't think you can afford to trade Sale unless you're committing to a scorched-Earth rebuild.

[Balta1701]

It's already taken a hit with the loss of Peavy.

Really? So far it's kinda gotten better.

[iamshack]

If you trade Sale, that really awesome staff is way less awesome. It's already taken a hit with the loss of Peavy. I don't think you can afford to trade Sale unless you're committing to a scorched-Earth rebuild.

What is that awesome staff doing for us now?

[Chisoxfn]

You don't block guys that you want to contribute with career 4A type of players.

When was he ever blocked? I don't recall him being blocked by any of those bums.

[fathom]

What is that awesome staff doing for us now?

 

Over the last month, I've changed my mind and believe Sale should be available in a trade, but only for a return that's too good to pass up. If you can get two starting position players for the future and a starting pitcher, that would be more useful to the organization.

[Chisoxfn]

Andy Wilkins is not a part of any rebuilding plan unless you are planning on being the Astros and intentionally tanking a period of years for draft picks and low payrolls.

Wilkins was a 5th round pick. In no way am I saying we should be slobbering over him, but lets not act like he was some undrafted free agent that emerged out of nowhere. He's consistently produced at every level. I don't think he's going to stick but he's got the numbers and at least enough tools to warrant an initial look.

[iamshack]

Maybe...depends on whether what they got back actually worked out and did so in a reasonable amount of time. Worth considering though...the reason why that makes sense in hindsight is that his production fell off a cliff. If people are expecting something similar to happen to Sale then yes he should be dealt, but that's the only reason anyone gives that gets most people agreeing...if the team thinks he can't stay healthy then yes he should be on the trading block.

 

The fact that "Everyone other than Konerko and Sale" were supposed to be on the trading block this deadline according to press reports suggests to me that the team doesn't think he'll have these problems. Ditto the extension.

Do you think anyone expected Lincecum's career to go down this path?

 

I'm not trying to suggest that that would happen to Sale, just that you never know what might happen. And given the fragile nature of Sale's frame and his violent delivery (I dunno if I am articulating that quite right), you just know that everyone is going to say "I told you so" if Sale does sustain a serious injury. I guess it just goes to show that the SF model is also fraught with risk, especially given that it weighs so heavily on a few very important guys.

 

I guess I'd like to see them actually build a young, exciting team all-around, and I see trading Sale as the quickest, best way to do so.

[iamshack]

Over the last month, I've changed my mind and believe Sale should be available in a trade, but only for a return that's too good to pass up. If you can get two starting position players for the future and a starting pitcher, that would be more useful to the organization.

You and I are of similar minds on this.

 

There is just so little hope I see of actually putting quality young position players on the field otherwise in any short timeframe.

[ptatc]

You and I are of similar minds on this.

 

There is just so little hope I see of actually putting quality young position players on the field otherwise in any short timeframe.

I still disagree. Pitching is still the most important piece and it's difficult to come by young, reasonably priced, top of the rotation starters. Unless the deal includes another young top of the rotation type prospect, the organization would be taking a major step backwards.

[iamshack]

I still disagree. Pitching is still the most important piece and it's difficult to come by young, reasonably priced, top of the rotation starters. Unless the deal includes another young top of the rotation type prospect, the organization would be taking a major step backwards.

I understand.

 

Assuming we're going to continue sucking for a few more years though, we should be in a solid draft position and we'd certainly have money to spend.

[southsider2k5]

Wilkins was a 5th round pick. In no way am I saying we should be slobbering over him, but lets not act like he was some undrafted free agent that emerged out of nowhere. He's consistently produced at every level. I don't think he's going to stick but he's got the numbers and at least enough tools to warrant an initial look.

 

At this point draft position is meaningless. Honestly, a great comp for Wilkins numbers is pre-back injury Brent Morel. OPS's at the lower levels are very similar. In no way is that someone you turn 1B over to.

[LittleHurt05]

For a counterpoint, let's look at San Francisco. They have won 2 world series now on the strength of their top front line starting pitching with "barely enough to be adequate" offense. They had to switch one of those starters from Lincecum to Bumgarner, and they've gotten a big contribution from their catcher...but that is a team with 2 world series in what, 4 years, keyed entirely by having a top of the line pair of starters leading their rotation.

 

Let's hypothetically say the Sox added Rondon to Sale at the top of that rotation. Now we're talking about a legitimately dominant possible pitching staff. The kind of pitching staff that on its own wins world series trophies, plural.

 

I try to look at San Francisco as a model for the Sox, but being in the NL West in that huge pitchers park plays such a difference. They could win in the playoffs, but I think they may have a hard time getting there with a "barely adequate" offense in the AL.