But Foulke was borderline "established" as a fifth starter with the Giants, not as a reliever.

 

Crede, with the back issues, there's no way of knowing what he would have gone on to do after Chicago. We can all see the inconsistency due to health out of Quentin, as well.

 

 

The difference is all those pitchers were noted FAILURES (except for Danks, who hadn't really had a full opportunity in Texas).

 

Contreras in NY, Floyd in Philly. Jenks nearly out of the game of baseball and out of control in the Angels' organization. Santos a former 1st rounder who was almost out of the game as a SS. Peavy was pitching with 3-5 mph off his peak 2007 Cy Young velocity. Disasters right and left with most of the pitchers.

 

JD broke his leg, but he had some super solid years with the Braves and Royals.

Don Cooper took over as the White Sox pitching coach in 2002. You may want to check Keith Foulke 1999-2001.

I think he's a good pitching coach. I've said that several times. He's just not the pitching god people make him out to be. No one is. Leo Mazzone was a genius in Atlanta. He went to Baltimore, got some bad pitchers got fired and then couldn't get hired.

Did Leo Mazzone actually want to find a job after Baltimore? IIRC he only went there because a friend of his was managing. Just to point out...

In his book The Baseball Economist, J.C. Bradbury titles a chapter, "How Good is Leo Mazzone?" Using statistical analysis, he analyzes whether Mazzone had a significant impact upon the pitchers that he coached. The sample is all pitchers who have pitched at least one year under Mazzone and one year under a different pitching coach. Bradbury found that Mazzone lowered the ERA of pitchers by an average of 0.64 points, and that after leaving Mazzone, pitchers' ERA increased by an average of 0.78 points. Bradbury believes that such an impact is deserving of Hall of Fame consideration

Don Cooper took over as the White Sox pitching coach in 2002. You may want to check Keith Foulke 1999-2001.

 

Even if you take Foulke out of the equation (and he pulled himself from the closer's role in 2003)...then you also have Damaso Marte, who became the best LH set-up guy in baseball and hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet.

 

Also, got him for next to nothing, even though Guerrier was touted by McClendon as the next Greg Maddux at the time.

 

Marte and Thornton are two of Cooper's greatest success stories, IMO.

 

Or the bullpen/Quintana that was patched together with, what, 13 rookies in one season?

 

Hector Santiago, let's not forget about him as well.

Edited April 25, 201411 yr by caulfield12

But a lot of the list for Cooper wasn't really reclamation except the names I mentioned. Dye and Thome and Konerko were reclimations as much as most of the Cooper list.

 

Cooper doesn't get scrutinized for guys failing nearly as much as the Sox hitting coaches or manager have. That's just a fact. If Darin Erstad is horrible and Andy Gonzalez doesn't hack it in the 3 spot, Walker was an idiot. If the Sox botch a rundown, Ventura hasn't shown them the proper way. If the bullpen walks 5 out of 6 batters, the pitchers just suck.

 

Several guys weren't so good with the White Sox but had pitching success later elsewhere. Other than Nick Swisher, I don't think there is any White Sox who had far more success offensively after sucking it up with the White Sox. Of course, many of the White Sox hitters were veterans who were either done or nearing the end of the line, but no one was able to "fix" the other guys.

 

It's true that he doesn't get the scrutiny that other guys have, but that's because we haven't had a disaster of a pitching season during his tenure. We've definitely had clunkers of offensive seasons and a lot of it had to do with horrible hitting approaches.

 

I'm not saying it's fair or isn't, but based on how it appears that managers get hired and fired, at least from the public's point of view, it's not hard to see why it's the case.

Unfortunately he won't be coming to this thread in excitement because of Dunn and Jimenez.

 

D'Angelo? Haha.

Noesi is joining the team tomorrow.

What's to say they didn't see a fixable glitch or a tipping of pitches? The assumption doesn't have to be that the organization is stupid.

 

 

I am with you on this line of thinking but it does get old figuring that Cooper can fix em all. First you need something that can be fixed

I am with you on this line of thinking but it does get old figuring that Cooper can fix em all. First you need something that can be fixed

 

 

When we start picking up reclamation veteran hitting prospects (think Michael Morse/Jason Bay/Corey Hart) and you're consistently reading in threads "Steverson will fix 'em" and it's not said jokingly or in jest, that's when you will know the coach is making a real impact.

 

In 2007, we tried to throw about 100 pieces of crap against the wall (Aardsma, Sisco, MacDougal...auditioned about 12-15 lefty relievers, and the only one who was decent, Javier Lopez, we ended up trading before he ever pitched for the White Sox).

 

I remember those threads asking why couldn't Cooper get anything out of Nick Masset, for example.

 

Haven't seen many claiming he should have worked wonders with Zach Stewart, Nestor Molina or Jeff Marquez, for example.

@JJStankevitz: Hector Noesi will throw for Don Cooper tomorrow and the Sox will make a decision on him after. Rick Hahn says they like his upside.

Did Leo Mazzone actually want to find a job after Baltimore? IIRC he only went there because a friend of his was managing. Just to point out...

Oh yes. This is a couple years old. He also lobbied for the Phillies job this past winter

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...es&c_id=mlb

@JJStankevitz: Hector Noesi will throw for Don Cooper tomorrow and the Sox will make a decision on him after. Rick Hahn says they like his upside.

This article says Noesi will be on the 25 on Saturday and the Sox see 2 specific things of things want to work on with him. http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/...sox-on-saturday

Edited April 26, 201411 yr by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

So going off of the idea that the White Sox see something to fix in Noesi...

 

Career he has a 5.81 era. Vs the Sox he has a 19.41 era, or 23 ER in 10.2 IP. Take away his outings against the Sox and his career ERA drops to 5.03. The closest ERA to what he has put up against the Sox in any team he has pitched more than 10 innings against is 12.26 lower.

 

With that big of an ERA against 1 team, and the fact that team claimed him, does it mean Sox see a tell in Noesi's delivery?

 

 

This article says Noesi will be on the 25 on Saturday and the Sox see 2 specific things of things want to work on with him. http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/...sox-on-saturday

 

Nailed it.

https://twitter.com/HJPNoesi/status/4601149...8715776/photo/1

How is everyone overlooking Nate Jones in this conversation? He was a total non-prospect.

TUC sent me a message to deliver to the soxtalk world

 

I would like you to point something out for me re: our newest addition Mr. Hector Noesi which I personally requested Hahn acquire.

 

Watch him yesterday with us: http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_...l='ALL'

 

Then compare him to in Seattle:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v27177443/minnyy-no...arang/?c_id=mlb

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v25177205/seaoak-no...elief/?c_id=mlb

 

It appears Coop has quited the delivery considerably by pretty much eliminating the wind up and keeping him taller on the mound, eliminating a bend/crouch in his earlier days. His delivery now makes him look a lot like Freddy Garcia. Of course he doesn't have the curve and (later) split that Freddy had, but he has a good slider & a good fastball, and he throws a change in there that is pretty nasty. It should be noted all fastballs over the plate there which the Rays flew out on but otherwise could have been tattooed, but that should be expected as he adjusts to his new delivery.

 

So Coop may have already fixed him.

Rozner was telling a story about Noesi that I hadn't heard before. I knew that the White Sox liked him in the past but Rozner said something interesting this weekend. He said that when the White Sox were killing Noesi last season, Ken Williams called the dugout phone and told Cooper to watch him. Supposedly, Ken Williams said " We are going to have this guy next week and I know what is wrong with him". Then Ken Williams and Cooper broke down film and looked at the mechanics. Rozner mentioned that the White Sox think he is a rotation piece and not just some filler. He was coveted by the Sox for a long time.

Edited February 23, 201511 yr by Y2JImmy0

Rozner was telling a story about Noesi that I hadn't heard before. I knew that the White Sox liked him in the past but Rozner said something interesting this weekend. He said that when the White Sox were killing Noesi last season, Ken Williams called the dugout phone and told Cooper to watch him. Supposedly, Ken Williams said " We are going to have this guy next week and I know what is wrong with him". Then Ken Williams and Cooper broke down film and looked at the mechanics. Rozner mentioned that the White Sox think he is a rotation piece and not just some filler. He was coveted by the Sox for a long time.

 

That is really interesting.

Rozner was telling a story about Noesi that I hadn't heard before. I knew that the White Sox liked him in the past but Rozner said something interesting this weekend. He said that when the White Sox were killing Noesi last season, Ken Williams called the dugout phone and told Cooper to watch him. Supposedly, Ken Williams said " We are going to have this guy next week and I know what is wrong with him". Then Ken Williams and Cooper broke down film and looked at the mechanics. Rozner mentioned that the White Sox think he is a rotation piece and not just some filler. He was coveted by the Sox for a long time.

 

i am totally at a lost here, how in hades did KW and the FO knew of Noesi going on waivers let alone getting picked by the sox.

 

another gem to give me a reminder of KW doing good.

Coop told a little different story at Soxfest. It didn't include KW, which I find a longshot to call the dugout during the game. Coop said they were looking for another starter and said to Robin when they were killing Noesi, watch this guy wil be on our team next week.

i am totally at a lost here, how in hades did KW and the FO knew of Noesi going on waivers let alone getting picked by the sox.

 

another gem to give me a reminder of KW doing good.

Noesi had already been released once on the year after 2 terrible games with Seattle.

 

He then pitched 4 innings for Texas, gave up 4 hits and a walk but 0 runs, bringing his ERA down to 5.06.

 

He then faced the White Sox, who tagged him for 7 runs in 1 inning. His ERA jumped back to 14.21.

 

Guys with ERAs of 14.21 who already were waived once don't often stay on teams rosters.

TUC sent me a message to deliver to the soxtalk world

 

Is he banned currently?

Noesi had already been released once on the year after 2 terrible games with Seattle.

 

He then pitched 4 innings for Texas, gave up 4 hits and a walk but 0 runs, bringing his ERA down to 5.06.

 

He then faced the White Sox, who tagged him for 7 runs in 1 inning. His ERA jumped back to 14.21.

 

Guys with ERAs of 14.21 who already were waived once don't often stay on teams rosters.

 

 

what a find, i really cheer the underdog and i hope he comes out where he left off.

 

as the count down begins for spring trng and the season, i am getting stoke. damn i can't wait

Noesi probably still sucks.

Noesi probably still sucks.

 

he is the only sp the sox can depend on, as of right now.

 

i want him to succeed, b/c i want the sox to win.

he is the only sp the sox can depend on, as of right now.

 

i want him to succeed, b/c i want the sox to win.

 

Only starting pitcher Sox can depend on? What?