In-season managerial changes a risk, BUT

[chitownsportsfan]

JR turning Thibs into a martyr is one of the dumbest PR mistakes I've ever seen. They handled it about as poorly as possible and now this narrative of "oh, poor Thibs who was undermined the entire time in Chicago is now fired because he pissed off his bosses" is bulls***.

 

Thibs was a large part of the problem in Chicago and it speaks volumes that nobody wanted to trade for him when you've got washed up has beens like VDN and JVG interviewing for jobs.

 

Thibs just isn't that in demand around the league. He's a solid coach but he's not a long term winner for many of the reasons Ptac mentioned.

[Jake]

If you want to point a finger at somebody for why we aren't having a good year, the finger should point at Rick Hahn.

 

I wouldn't necessarily endorse firing Hahn, either, but the players just aren't very good. He was aggressive in the offseason but there was too far to go. The team has the talent to compete, but we were always going to have to get lucky. We haven't gotten lucky. Some of the players that are normally not that good are once again not that good. Big shock, Tyler Flowers, Geo Soto, Conor Gillaspie, Emilio Bonifacio, John Danks, Hector Noesi, etc. aren't kicking ass out there.

[ptatc]

And yet Ozzie was always blamed for his Sunday line-ups.

 

The irony is that he actually utilized his bench extremely well...and it paid off handsomely quite often.

 

Ventura hasn't had the same level of bench talent to utilize, so it's harder to make comparisons.

 

 

 

I do wonder if they have warned him about playing Alexei too often...of course, once again, with options like Leury Garcia or Olmedo, you can understand the hesitancy.

you did not hear that from me. I fully supported those. It is the correct way to run a team.

 

Agreed on the second part about Alexei.

[chitownsportsfan]

If you want to point a finger at somebody for why we aren't having a good year, the finger should point at Rick Hahn.

 

I wouldn't necessarily endorse firing Hahn, either, but the players just aren't very good. He was aggressive in the offseason but there was too far to go. The team has the talent to compete, but we were always going to have to get lucky. We haven't gotten lucky. Some of the players that are normally not that good are once again not that good. Big shock, Tyler Flowers, Geo Soto, Conor Gillaspie, Emilio Bonifacio, John Danks, Hector Noesi, etc. aren't kicking ass out there.

 

Good post but how much of this "aggression" was KW and JR and how much of it was Hahn? It's too bad we have little clue of how the decisionmaking process works. From the JR statement on Thibs it seems he tries to some "decision by consensus" that rarely, if ever works. I would just broom the entire FO outside of Hahn, let him hire his own people, give him a 3 year window, and see what happens.

[ptatc]

If you want to point a finger at somebody for why we aren't having a good year, the finger should point at Rick Hahn.

 

I wouldn't necessarily endorse firing Hahn, either, but the players just aren't very good. He was aggressive in the offseason but there was too far to go. The team has the talent to compete, but we were always going to have to get lucky. We haven't gotten lucky. Some of the players that are normally not that good are once again not that good. Big shock, Tyler Flowers, Geo Soto, Conor Gillaspie, Emilio Bonifacio, John Danks, Hector Noesi, etc. aren't kicking ass out there.

I would re-phrase that to "some of them just aren't having good years." This would be Abreu, LaRoche, Cabrera, Sale, JS., Quentana. These are players with track records and aren't living up to it so far.

 

The aren't very good ones are the ones you listed but if the previously mentioned ones were having "typical years" this team would be well above .500.

[ptatc]

Good post but how much of this "aggression" was KW and JR and how much of it was Hahn? It's too bad we have little clue of how the decisionmaking process works. From the JR statement on Thibs it seems he tries to some "decision by consensus" that rarely, if ever works. I would just broom the entire FO outside of Hahn, let him hire his own people, give him a 3 year window, and see what happens.

I don't think it matters. I know most people want to blame a person. They feel better if they can point to a single person for their anger/frustration. It's human nature, especially in this generation, to want to point fingers at a person.

 

I would say "front office" and hold the entire group responsible as it is most likely group decisions.

[Balta1701]

I would re-phrase that to "some of them just aren't having good years." This would be Abreu, LaRoche, Cabrera, Sale, JS., Quentana. These are players with track records and aren't living up to it so far.

 

The aren't very good ones are the ones you listed but if the previously mentioned ones were having "typical years" this team would be well above .500.

And If a team that should be "very well above .500" is systematically playing worse, with very few injuries as an excuse, then it becomes a very legitimate question "what is wrong with this team that could cause so many different players to systematically be below where they normally are?"

 

What could effect an entire roster and make an entire roster play worse?

 

There's your choice. Either this roster was never good enough to compete and the person who traded for a major player on a 1 year contract and spent $50 million while leaving huge holes is a fool, or this roster is good enough to compete and the people who manage the roster and helped this roster prepare for the season are utterly failing at their jobs.

[chitownsportsfan]

I don't think it matters. I know most people want to blame a person. They feel better if they can point to a single person for their anger/frustration. It's human nature, especially in this generation, to want to point fingers at a person.

 

I would say "front office" and hold the entire group responsible as it is most likely group decisions.

 

I'm trying to think of a single successful MLB franchise that has such decision making process. I agree that most likely it is a "group decision" and that is not how to do things IMO. You need one guy and everyone else lines up behind him.

[southsider2k5]

I'm trying to think of a single successful MLB franchise that has such decision making process. I agree that most likely it is a "group decision" and that is not how to do things IMO. You need one guy and everyone else lines up behind him.

 

Do you honestly think Theo Epstein has no input on the Cubs decision making process?

[chitownsportsfan]

Do you honestly think Theo Epstein has no input on the Cubs decision making process?

 

The question isn't that at all. The question is "who has final say"?

 

I guarantee you that it's not Jed Hoyer. Hoyer works the phones I'm sure and does other duties but the executive at the top is Epstein. It's a traditional org chart.

 

The Sox have more of a triangle it seems at the top with JR, Hahn and KW all making inputs. That isn't going to work.

[Balta1701]

Do you honestly think Theo Epstein has no input on the Cubs decision making process?

Do we think the Moneyball "trading Carlos Pena so that Art Howe can't play him at 1b" was accurate?

[Soxfest]

If you want to point a finger at somebody for why we aren't having a good year, the finger should point at Rick Hahn.

 

I wouldn't necessarily endorse firing Hahn, either, but the players just aren't very good. He was aggressive in the offseason but there was too far to go. The team has the talent to compete, but we were always going to have to get lucky. We haven't gotten lucky. Some of the players that are normally not that good are once again not that good. Big shock, Tyler Flowers, Geo Soto, Conor Gillaspie, Emilio Bonifacio, John Danks, Hector Noesi, etc. aren't kicking ass out there.

As long as KW is over Hahn how can you really know If Hahn made all these decisions? I would like to see Hahn on his own 100% and judge him without KW around on his own merits.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Soxfest

[southsider2k5]

The question isn't that at all. The question is "who has final say"?

 

I guarantee you that it's not Jed Hoyer. Hoyer works the phones I'm sure and does other duties but the executive at the top is Epstein. It's a traditional org chart.

 

The Sox have more of a triangle it seems at the top with JR, Hahn and KW all making inputs. That isn't going to work.

 

And JR has final say.

[southsider2k5]

As long as KW is over Hahn how can you really know If Hahn made all these decisions? I would like to see Hahn on his own 100% and judge him without KW around on his own merits.

 

Again, no GM is "100% on his own".

 

Hell even Jerry himself has to answer to the Board of Directors.

[chitownsportsfan]

And JR has final say.

 

And that's a problem. It's reality, but it's a problem. The owner should hire his people at let them work without interference. The idea that Hahn has to sit down with JR and KW before signing someone strikes me as absurd. Just give him a budget and get out of the way.

[southsider2k5]

And that's a problem. It's reality, but it's a problem. The owner should hire his people at let them work without interference. The idea that Hahn has to sit down with JR and KW before signing someone strikes me as absurd. Just give him a budget and get out of the way.

 

You think the Epstein operates without going to the Ricketts family? No way.

[chitownsportsfan]

You think the Epstein operates without going to the Ricketts family? No way.

 

Why do you keep bringing up how the Cubs do things? We're talking about the White Sox and how whatever the hell they are doing on the South Side has led to one of the worst 30 year stretches in club history outside of 2005 when almost everything broke their way.

 

Whatever they are doing isn't working. Try something new.

[Balta1701]

You think the Epstein operates without going to the Ricketts family? No way.

So you're saying that the Ricketts family is substantially outperforming Reinsdorf's group in their management of that franchise?

[southsider2k5]

Why do you keep bringing up how the Cubs do things? We're talking about the White Sox and how whatever the hell they are doing on the South Side has led to one of the worst 30 year stretches in club history outside of 2005 when almost everything broke their way.

 

Whatever they are doing isn't working. Try something new.

 

You are the one telling me that no one else is doing things this way. You only have to look 8.1 miles north to find someone that is doing things exactly this way.

[southsider2k5]

So you're saying that the Ricketts family is substantially outperforming Reinsdorf's group in their management of that franchise?

 

And there is the extreme hyperbole, what took so long?

[Dick Allen]

Again, no GM is "100% on his own".

 

Hell even Jerry himself has to answer to the Board of Directors.

The way this partnership is drawn up, JR has all the power. He listens to the BOD, but he doesn't have to. He has carte blanche to do whatever he pleases. And if he dies, he has it set up to where that power goes to his executor.

[Dick Allen]

Why do you keep bringing up how the Cubs do things? We're talking about the White Sox and how whatever the hell they are doing on the South Side has led to one of the worst 30 year stretches in club history outside of 2005 when almost everything broke their way.

 

Whatever they are doing isn't working. Try something new.

You wrote in glowing terms about the job Rick Hahn did last offseason. Are you stepping back from those now?

[Balta1701]

And there is the extreme hyperbole, what took so long?

Dude you're in the latest "Fire the manager" thread.

 

Sadly I kinda think I'm serious. The last "All-in" season was supposedly pushed by JR and that turned out terribly. Whether Hahn pushed JR to spending more this offseason or JR pushed Hahn into it...well we're even worse right now than that team was.

[Soxfest]

Again, no GM is "100% on his own".

 

Hell even Jerry himself has to answer to the Board of Directors.

The layers of management the Sox have in making decisons is NOT working and has not for years.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Soxfest

[Eminor3rd]

How do you guys have so much insight into how well the White Sox internal chain of command works? Are you all ex-employees or something?