In-season managerial changes a risk, BUT

[Eminor3rd]

By that argument, no CEO or manager or coach should ever be fired, except for gross negligence.

 

Unless you accept the fact that the White Sox actual or real "mean" is 0-5 games under .500 (and last place in the division) and are contented with that level of performance....then we'll be stuck in that same pattern of continual and consistent mediocrity for another 20-30 years.

 

No, that's not true at all. Firstly, we're only dealing with the question of "will firing a manager in season improve the Sox chances to win," and secondly, we're only dealing with a job where the players have others actively trying to impede their success. Sports is an area where you can try and fail at your job. There doesn't exist the same gap between strategy and execution in nearly all office jobs. Sales probably comes closest.

 

The thing that is missing from all the "fire RV" discussion is the complete lack of willingness for anyone to accept the possibility that the players are simply failing because success is hard. Every single at bat in baseball, someone fails and someone succeeds. There isn't always an explanation you can put on a flowchart. It's certainly plausible that something is wrong upstairs that is leading to failure on the field, but none of us have any way of knowing and the play on the field is not remotely close to sufficient evidence.

[SCCWS]

Cooper is the main one whose loyalty to the organization trumps his loyalty to Ventura (like Cora with Guillen).

 

Buddy Bell would be another choice, or Nick Capra.

 

Finally, McEwing or Salas if Ventura recommended they stay on in his place. (And I'm sure he wouldn't, not his style to be petty or vengeful).

 

 

That's four. Personally, I would be happy with Cooper or McEwing (because he's a big LaRussa disciple, the equivalent of Martinez with Maddon almost).

 

 

But no 2-3 year contracts for the interim manager. He's got to earn it. Otherwise, you wait until the offseason and do a full managerial search with due diligence and a full field of candidates, which hasn't happened since 2003-2004 with this organization.

 

But if Cooper is the manager, then you need to hire a pitching coach. Juan Nieves. You cannot finish this season w 3 young pitchers in Sale, Q and Rodon not getting the full attention of a pitching coach. But Herm Schneider would still be the most experienced choice for manager. He would be a "safe" pick

Edited May 27, 2015 by SCCWS

[southsider2k5]

No, that's not true at all. Firstly, we're only dealing with the question of "will firing a manager in season improve the Sox chances to win," and secondly, we're only dealing with a job where the players have others actively trying to impede their success. Sports is an area where you can try and fail at your job. There doesn't exist the same gap between strategy and execution in nearly all office jobs. Sales probably comes closest.

The thing that is missing from all the "fire RV" discussion is the complete lack of willingness for anyone to accept the possibility that the players are simply failing because success is hard. Every single at bat in baseball, someone fails and someone succeeds. There isn't always an explanation you can put on a flowchart. It's certainly plausible that something is wrong upstairs that is leading to failure on the field, but none of us have any way of knowing and the play on the field is not remotely close to sufficient evidence.

 

 

This is good stuff.

[southsider2k5]

But if Cooper is the manager, then you need to hire a pitching coach. Juan Nieves. You cannot finish this season w 3 young pitchers in Sale, Q and Rodon not getting the full attention of a pitching coach.

 

Everything that makes Cooper a good coach would make him an awful manager.

[caulfield12]

Here's a team in a VERY similar situation to the White Sox, and Bryan Price will certainly be fired any day now...but they have the All-Star game to host and don't want to take a complete attendance PR hit if they can help it, either.

 

They have a very solid core in Chapman, Cueto, Leake, Frazier, Cosart, Mesoraco, Bruce and Votto.....and difficult decisions to make on whether to keep Chapman, Votto, Bruce and/or Cueto OR simply completely blow things up.

 

 

 

Even if the Reds play very well between now and July 31, it won't be good enough. Even if by some small miracle they entertained wild card hopes heading into September, who's in their rotation? Not Lorenzen and Iglesias. Their innings limit will have been reached by then, most likely.

 

It is time for the reboot to begin, if only behind the scenes. W. Jocketty has been accused of lacking energy in recent years. Time for him to change that perception by marshaling his scout network and scouring the minors for big talent. Jocketty's preferred way of making a team better has always been trading for/signing veterans. That won't work here now.(A suggestion: Why don't the Reds go find themselves a young, analytics type, and install him as an assistant GM? I have no idea who that might be, but they might.)

 

No matter. The Reds can't piecemeal it. They've tried that. You can't contend and reload at the same time. This isn't UK basketball. There are no instant makeovers. Nine Ls in a row is unfortunate by any measure. But also instructive. Time for the top bananas to start seeing the tea leaves for what they are.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/daugherty-...-weds/28004215/

Edited May 27, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Everything that makes Cooper a good coach would make him an awful manager.

 

 

Fine, then you've got McEwing or Capra.

 

If you don't like those, Joel Skinner at AAA Charlotte...he's had a lot of big league experience around the Indians.

[caulfield12]

But if Cooper is the manager, then you need to hire a pitching coach. Juan Nieves. You cannot finish this season w 3 young pitchers in Sale, Q and Rodon not getting the full attention of a pitching coach. But Herm Schneider would still be the most experienced choice for manager. He would be a "safe" pick

 

 

In terms of wanting to enjoy the last four months of the baseball season, I'd happily take Herm Schneider as a choice, too.

 

A female coach. A computer algorithm. A plant. An i-watch. The Bill Veeck idea of fans managing the team. Caesar from Planet of the Apes.

[LDF]

 

some one said it, RV will not get fired. but how long will his embarrassment be of being a manager and if the team is still underachieving, how long will he take it.

 

sometimes players looses faith in the org and in the coaches. that has been proven.

 

for an interim i would let Joe McEwing manage and see how he does.

 

off season. Maddux from Atl, Cora and even Dave Martinez. as possible managers candidates.

[southsider2k5]

Something I noticed while looking for another stat.

 

Ventura as a manager is a career 240-289. His career Pythagorean is 241-288. If you look a this season and last he is actually a +6, after being -7 his first two years.

[reiks12]

When Robin was hired I hated the signing. Not because I thought he would be a bad manager, but because I worshipped him as a player growing up. I was afraid my opinion of him would be skewed after a couple years of managing.

 

Luckily I still adore him, but this organization needs a change at the helm (and other places in the FO)

[elrockinMT]

That being said, the only way Ventura leaves Chicago is if he quits.

 

I agree. I don't see this move, which if made, certainly may be considered a knee jerk and panic move being done. I am sorry and concerned for the soxtalk members who are in the gloom and doom cycle and if we can start some type of mental halth counseling fundraiser for them I am on board.

[LDF]

I agree. I don't see this move, which if made, certainly may be considered a knee jerk and panic move being done. I am sorry and concerned for the soxtalk members who are in the gloom and doom cycle and if we can start some type of mental halth counseling fundraiser for them I am on board.

 

 

then i will be the first.

[GREEDY]

Bringing in Zach Duke to face Valencia/Colabello/Pillar was the worst move I've witnessed by any manager all season.

Edited May 27, 2015 by GREEDY

[Y2Jimmy0]

You guys all know for a fact that if Robin Ventura quit or got fired, our next manager would be Jim Thome. Just the way the White Sox do things.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Bringing in Zach Duke to face Valencia/Colabello/Pillar was the worst move I've witnessed by any manager all season.

 

 

Disagree. Zach Duke is a better pitcher than Putnam and your other options. Go with the best guy there.

[chitownsportsfan]

, certainly may be considered a knee jerk and panic move being done.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/venturo01.shtml

 

He's a career .454 manager and 49 games under with the Sox. If the Sox can't spin this in their favor using those stats, then they should seek other careers because baseball isn't for them.

[southsider2k5]

You guys all know for a fact that if Robin Ventura quit or got fired, our next manager would be Jim Thome. Just the way the White Sox do things.

 

Thome is being groomed for the front office, I think.

[caulfield12]

I notice that Jeff Banister's increasingly becoming a very solid major league manager (as predicted).

 

Managers DO make a difference.

 

There's no counting stat for it. The sabes world can spend another decade coming up with something more accurate than pythagorean.

 

It's just something you learn to feel or pick up on being around someone for 140+ games, watching the way everyone responds to them and the respect they demand.

[Balta1701]

No, that's not true at all. Firstly, we're only dealing with the question of "will firing a manager in season improve the Sox chances to win," and secondly, we're only dealing with a job where the players have others actively trying to impede their success. Sports is an area where you can try and fail at your job. There doesn't exist the same gap between strategy and execution in nearly all office jobs. Sales probably comes closest.

 

The thing that is missing from all the "fire RV" discussion is the complete lack of willingness for anyone to accept the possibility that the players are simply failing because success is hard. Every single at bat in baseball, someone fails and someone succeeds. There isn't always an explanation you can put on a flowchart. It's certainly plausible that something is wrong upstairs that is leading to failure on the field, but none of us have any way of knowing and the play on the field is not remotely close to sufficient evidence.

In that case, the team's general manager vastly overestimated the talent available on his team because some of them had made it look too easy last year and invested $50 million this season based on that overestimation. The team's General Manager then has completely failed at his job by any reasonable standard, costing his employer a huge amount of money. He should be replaced.

[Dick Allen]

In that case, the team's general manager vastly overestimated the talent available on his team because some of them had made it look too easy last year and invested $50 million this season based on that overestimation. The team's General Manager then has completely failed at his job by any reasonable standard, costing his employer a huge amount of money. He should be replaced.

Why is your solution to failure in a game designed for failure always to fire someone? Can't you come up with something a little more creative?

[LDF]

Why is your solution to failure in a game designed for failure always to fire someone? Can't you come up with something a little more creative?

 

oh i have to sign in and say this.

 

b/c baseball is a team first and a money maker second, unless you are an owner.

 

if someone is not getting results, the basic thing to do is replace that person

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

In terms of wanting to enjoy the last four months of the baseball season, I'd happily take Herm Schneider as a choice, too.

 

A female coach. A computer algorithm. A plant. An i-watch. The Bill Veeck idea of fans managing the team. Caesar from Planet of the Apes.

 

Konerko from his house in Arizona via Skype. They can roll a cart with the tv onto the field for pitching changes and disputes with officiating.

[Balta1701]

Why is your solution to failure in a game designed for failure always to fire someone? Can't you come up with something a little more creative?

Ok, demote and replace. The guy is being paid probably > a million dollars this year to run a sports team in a way that spends money wisely and wins ballgames - thus producing a financial return on investment. If he cannot handle that job then he does not deserve that position.

[LDF]

Konerko from his house in Arizona via Skype. They can roll a cart with the tv onto the field for pitching changes and disputes with officiating.

 

innovative..... i like it.

[Dick Allen]

oh i have to sign in and say this.

 

b/c baseball is a team first and a money maker second, unless you are an owner.

 

if someone is not getting results, the basic thing to do is replace that person

Well then, let's look at the Sox roster with the consensus Soxtalk opinion of each player:

Eaton..shouldn't be leading off. Shouldn't have received an extension. Bad

Melky...one of the worst hitters in the league

Abreu...a hair above average, the league caught up to him

LaRoche...awful. Adam Dunn II

Garcia...horrible fielder, should crash and be a negative WAR guy

Alexei....old and done. Get rid of

Gillaspie...Hahn made a mistake by not getting a 3B this past winter

Flowers...needs to be cut immediately

Micah/Sanchez.......not ready with the glove for one, not ready with the bat for the other

 

Soto...godawful

Beckham.........we know what has been said about him. Unfortunately he made the team

Bonifacio.......what's his purpose

Shuck........he needs to go.

 

 

Sale.....what's wrong. If he isn't throwing his slider a lot he isn't an ace

Samardiza......horrible. Big mistake trading for him

Q...flash in the pan is lacking an out pitch

Danks.......nothing needs to be written

Noesi.....see above

Rodon......can't throw strikes. Won't be any good unless he has a change up.

 

Jennings......bad

Putnam....flash in the pan

Petricka.......OK but nothing special

Carroll......DFA candidate, should be in Charlotte

Duke.......should never face LH hitters

Robertson.....good, but yet some have concerns

 

 

So the manager has a roster where, at least if you ever read a gamethread, at least 84% of it, is just plain bad. How can losing be on the manager?