More evidence of Chicago media turning on Ventura

[caulfield12]

How many position players have improved in the 2012-2015 time frame?

 

Throwing out all the guys who are older (Dunn, LaRoche, Cabrera, Bonifacio, Soto, Keppinger, DeAza, Ramirez, etc.)

 

You have Viciedo and Eaton for sure who showed the ability to be contributors and play soundly on both sides of the ball...before falling off mentally/focus/concentration-wise.

 

Avi, comparing his past efforts with this season?

 

Beckham's probably not a fair example, but what about Flowers and Gillaspie?

 

Either we're scouting and bringing in players who don't improve (or get exposed by scouting and dont/cant readjust) ot there's a flaw somewhere in development at the major or minor league levels, or both. Matt Davidson also comes to mind here.

 

Eduardo Escobar, Semien and Phegley have become more valuable contributors than they were for us...the complement to that. Hector Santiago is a 50/50 All-Star with the Angels.

 

Is Vince Coleman the worst baserunning coach in the league, or the players are the worst at following his advice/instructions? Just a case of being great at something (Ted Williams and hitting) doesn't make it easier for you to coach that same skill in others with lesser talent/ability? Most players of Ventura's ability (or above) haven't been great managers, with Joe Torre being one of the main exceptions.

 

And, since all veterans essentially "are what they are...only they will get worse or fall off a cliff eventually" shouldn't we do more to find players on the other side of that curve?

Edited July 3, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

How many position players have improved in the 2012-2015 time frame?

 

Throwing out all the guys who are older (Dunn, LaRoche, Cabrera, Bonifacio, Soto, Keppinger, DeAza, Ramirez, etc.)

 

You have Viciedo and Eaton for sure who showed the ability to be contributors and play soundly on both sides of the ball...before falling off mentally/focus/concentration-wise.

 

Avi, comparing his past efforts with this season?

 

Beckham's probably not a fair example, but what about Flowers and Gillaspie?

 

Either we're scouting and bringing in players who don't improve (or get exposed by scouting and dont/cant readjust) ot there's a flaw somewhere in development at the major or minor league levels, or both. Matt Davidson also comes to mind here.

 

Eduardo Escobar, Semien and Phegley have become more valuable contributors than they were for us...the complement to that. Hector Santiago is a 50/50 All-Star with the Angels.

 

Is Vince Coleman the worst baserunning coach in the league, or the players are the worst at following his advice/instructions? Just a case of being great at something (Ted Williams and hitting) doesn't make it easier for you to coach that same skill in others with lesser talent/ability? Most players of Ventura's ability (or above) haven't been great managers, with Joe Torre being one of the main exceptions.

 

And, since all veterans essentially "are what they are...only they will get worse or fall off a cliff eventually" shouldn't we do more to find players on the other side of that curve?

 

Escobar has a .281 OBP with Minnesota, and Semien's OPS which was .673 with the White Sox is all the way up to .701 with 25 errors.

 

John Danks xFIP. 4.53

Hector Santiago xFIP 4.46

Edited July 3, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

1. Alexei is not too old to lay off s***ty pitches. He's not too old to make routine 15 foot throws to second base. If Alexei's pile of stupid errors aren't his own fault, how are you going to blame the manager? Has he not had enough reps in his 8 year ML career as an above average and sometimes elite defender that he needs some coaching to prepare him to play defense during a baseball game? 2. I explicitly did NOT blame Flowers/Beckham/etc. for being bad baseball players. Do you blame Robin for them being bad baseball players? 3. Eaton put up a 3-win season last year with no unsustainable peripherals -- even if he's not a true-talent 3-win player, he is at least capable of being league-average. Regarding "the people who brought these players in (Hahn & Co., not Robin Ventura)": If these guys were putting up level of production that were even within an entire standard of deviation of what they were expected to do, and our team was STILL completely out of contention, I would grab a pitchfork and blame Hahn. But I do NOT blame Hahn for Melky Cabrera putting up numbers that are SUBSTANTIALLY worse than anything he's ever done at any level, including when he was playing with a tumor on his spine, ESPECIALLY coming off of his career year which just so happened to have occurred AFTER he served his PED suspension. Eaton's terrible performance is slightly less surprising only because he has much less of a track record, so anything would be less surprising. Going into the season, there were a ton of scenarios that could have unfolded where we would be totally justified in blaming Hahn for simply not putting enough on the field to justify his expenditures, but to blame him for what actually happened isn't reasonable because it isn't one of those scenarios. I mean if you truly believed that Melky/Eaton/Samardzija/whoever was going to perform THIS badly, then you can complain, but their performances are simply way worse than ANY professional expected as far as we can tell. The pieces on the field are capable of success, albeit without much margin for error. The pieces on the field, though, s*** the bed in the worst way, completely blowing that margin for error out of the water. They did not deliver what they were expected to deliver, even within reasonable margins of error, so I blame them instead of their employer.

 

Alexei's D has been dropping off from year to year, so you can't just say this is some unexplainable act of God.

 

Melky and Samardizija both had similar rough seasons just in 2013, so I don't see how this completely out of a standard deviation for them. Either way, those two players aren't the only thing keeping this team from being a contender.

 

I mention Flowers & Beckham because they are on the roster and have to start the majority of the time. That's not Robin's fault, he didn't make up the roster. Then who's fault is it? Maybe the people who put together the roster? The people who acquired both years ago and are too stubborn to give up on them?

 

 

[caulfield12]

Escobar has a .281 OBP with Minnesota, and Semien's OPS which was .673 with the White Sox is all the way up to .701 with 25 errors.

 

John Danks xFIP. 4.53

Hector Santiago xFIP 4.46

 

And what did Escobar do last season?

 

You've solved the whole mess with one stat...we can just trade Danks and get Santiago back from Stoneman, who's very old and might not be thinking soundly. Could be senile.

 

 

Santiago is 11th in the majors in ERA...Danks is 11th on the White Sox roster probably.

 

Whip of 1.13, war of 2.1 and top 30 for k/ip in the entire major leagues.

 

He's also 11th in the majors in batting average against.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/so...ing/order/false

 

There's not a single pitcher on that list ahead of Santiago that it wouldn't require half of our minor league system to acquire.

 

Scherzer, Liriano, Keuchel, Cueto, Archer, Greinke, Felix Hernandez, Sonny Gray, Chris Sale and Shelby Miller.

 

Yeah, Danks belongs on that same list, lmao.

 

 

Marcus Semien 11th out of 23 qualified SS. A bit younger and cheaper. They thought enough of him to bring in Ron Washington to work with him.

 

Alexei, well....he should be thankful for Jimmy Rollins.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos.../qualified/true

 

 

Finally, Eduardo Escobar has a 696 slg percentage in a non hitter friendly park, yet you focus only on his on base percentage.

 

Weird.

 

721 ops and 1.1 war last season is something the White Sox would die to have about now.

 

You also forgot to mention that you're not correcting for Semien's ops at O.com vs. USCF...as obviously those stadiums are identical for offense.

 

 

"0%."

Edited July 3, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Alexei's D has been dropping off from year to year, so you can't just say this is some unexplainable act of God.

 

Melky and Samardizija both had similar rough seasons just in 2013, so I don't see how this completely out of a standard deviation for them. Either way, those two players aren't the only thing keeping this team from being a contender.

 

I mention Flowers & Beckham because they are on the roster and have to start the majority of the time. That's not Robin's fault, he didn't make up the roster. Then who's fault is it? Maybe the people who put together the roster? The people who acquired both years ago and are too stubborn to give up on them?

 

Fire the organist...Nancy Faust leaving jinxed the Sox.

[Jerksticks]

Alexei's D has been dropping off from year to year, so you can't just say this is some unexplainable act of God.

 

Melky and Samardizija both had similar rough seasons just in 2013, so I don't see how this completely out of a standard deviation for them. Either way, those two players aren't the only thing keeping this team from being a contender.

 

I mention Flowers & Beckham because they are on the roster and have to start the majority of the time. That's not Robin's fault, he didn't make up the roster. Then who's fault is it? Maybe the people who put together the roster? The people who acquired both years ago and are too stubborn to give up on them?

 

Fault is a weird word to use. I mean we are in the middle of a short retooling process. We had a shot on paper this year but it didn't work out. Clearly we aren't ready at 2b 3b or C yet. So what? Why does somebody have to PAY FOR THIS? Why does a career have to end because of this. Insanity. Stay the course boys, jerksticks loves ya!

[Chicago White Sox]

Alexei's D has been dropping off from year to year, so you can't just say this is some unexplainable act of God.

 

Melky and Samardizija both had similar rough seasons just in 2013, so I don't see how this completely out of a standard deviation for them. Either way, those two players aren't the only thing keeping this team from being a contender.

 

I mention Flowers & Beckham because they are on the roster and have to start the majority of the time. That's not Robin's fault, he didn't make up the roster. Then who's fault is it? Maybe the people who put together the roster? The people who acquired both years ago and are too stubborn to give up on them?

Melky had a tumor on his spine that season, I think he gets a pass for that.

[iamshack]

Fault is a weird word to use. I mean we are in the middle of a short retooling process. We had a shot on paper this year but it didn't work out. Clearly we aren't ready at 2b 3b or C yet. So what? Why does somebody have to PAY FOR THIS? Why does a career have to end because of this. Insanity. Stay the course boys, jerksticks loves ya!

I would completely agree with you except for one thing, which is why I see no reason to "blow this up" like many are saying.

 

What I want to see out of the roster on a day-in and day-out basis, namely, solid, fundamental defense and situational hitting, is just nowhere close to occurring. I really don't care one way or another whether we win 80 games or 70 games this season. All I am asking is that this roster start showing signs of playing the kind of ball moving forward where with some additional tweaks and some development by the younger players, one can see scenarios where they compete for the division in the next 2-3 years.

 

Unfortunately, we're seeing a bunch of sloppy bulls*** which basically negates the talent on our roster because we are giving away runs and outs on a daily basis with no sign of any progress being made whatsoever.

 

For me, it's not about wins and losses; it's about the way we are playing which leads me to the same consistent conclusion. The coaching staff simply has to go.

[Dick Allen]

And what did Escobar do last season?

 

You've solved the whole mess with one stat...we can just trade Danks and get Santiago back from Stoneman, who's very old and might not be thinking soundly. Could be senile.

 

 

Santiago is 11th in the majors in ERA...Danks is 11th on the White Sox roster probably.

 

Whip of 1.13, war of 2.1 and top 30 for k/ip in the entire major leagues.

 

He's also 11th in the majors in batting average against.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/so...ing/order/false

 

There's not a single pitcher on that list ahead of Santiago that it wouldn't require half of our minor league system to acquire.

 

Scherzer, Liriano, Keuchel, Cueto, Archer, Greinke, Felix Hernandez, Sonny Gray, Chris Sale and Shelby Miller.

 

Yeah, Danks belongs on that same list, lmao.

 

 

Marcus Semien 11th out of 23 qualified SS. A bit younger and cheaper. They thought enough of him to bring in Ron Washington to work with him.

 

Alexei, well....he should be thankful for Jimmy Rollins.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos.../qualified/true

 

 

Finally, Eduardo Escobar has a 696 slg percentage in a non hitter friendly park, yet you focus only on his on base percentage.

 

Weird.

 

721 ops and 1.1 war last season is something the White Sox would die to have about now.

 

You also forgot to mention that you're not correcting for Semien's ops at O.com vs. USCF...as obviously those stadiums are identical for offense.

 

 

"0%."

 

Amazimg Esconar has a .696 sluggling pct when his OPS is .670. Santiago has an fWAR of 0.9 right in line with the 1.2 fWAR he pit up with the Sox, and which would make him 5th compared to White Sox starters. And if last years stats are what was important, why are you ripping Alexei?

Edited July 3, 2015 by Dick Allen

[SCCWS]

I would completely agree with you except for one thing, which is why I see no reason to "blow this up" like many are saying.

 

What I want to see out of the roster on a day-in and day-out basis, namely, solid, fundamental defense and situational hitting, is just nowhere close to occurring. I really don't care one way or another whether we win 80 games or 70 games this season. All I am asking is that this roster start showing signs of playing the kind of ball moving forward where with some additional tweaks and some development by the younger players, one can see scenarios where they compete for the division in the next 2-3 years.

 

Unfortunately, we're seeing a bunch of sloppy bulls*** which basically negates the talent on our roster because we are giving away runs and outs on a daily basis with no sign of any progress being made whatsoever.

 

For me, it's not about wins and losses; it's about the way we are playing which leads me to the same consistent conclusion. The coaching staff simply has to go.

 

I agree the coaching staff has to go. But you ignore the fact that the GM, whoever made the decision, looked at the roster over the winter and knew avi was below average ib RF and yet signed Melky for left. They knew Abreu's ability at 1st and decided Johnson should be heir apparent at 2nd??? The coaching staff is to blame for a team that does not perform fundamentals. The FO is to blame for building a roster loaded w players who are average or below defensively.

 

[Balta1701]

I would completely agree with you except for one thing, which is why I see no reason to "blow this up" like many are saying.

 

What I want to see out of the roster on a day-in and day-out basis, namely, solid, fundamental defense and situational hitting, is just nowhere close to occurring. I really don't care one way or another whether we win 80 games or 70 games this season. All I am asking is that this roster start showing signs of playing the kind of ball moving forward where with some additional tweaks and some development by the younger players, one can see scenarios where they compete for the division in the next 2-3 years.

 

Unfortunately, we're seeing a bunch of sloppy bulls*** which basically negates the talent on our roster because we are giving away runs and outs on a daily basis with no sign of any progress being made whatsoever.

 

For me, it's not about wins and losses; it's about the way we are playing which leads me to the same consistent conclusion. The coaching staff simply has to go.

I've reached the point where I believe that the sloppiness is not just a function of the big league ballclub, it permeates the entire organization.

 

It permeates the draft strategy - we target raw power hitters with lots of swings and misses and then never put them through any kind of ringer to get them adapted to a position. We move guys around all the time on the assumption that unless they're a top pick they're a likely utility guy, so people don't get experience at a position and a chance to struggle and adapt to things like footwork, throwing angles, and basic decision making in the minors. We give guys a chance to get hot for a few months with the bat and then rush them upwards, seemingly forgetting that guys who are hitting well might need time to work on other parts of their game. We expect them to arrive in the big leagues with no major holes in their game and count on them to rapidly become positive contributors even though we pushed people upwards rapidly and then paid no attention to how the different parts of their game worked together. We trade for guys who fit the same mold - power, but little discipline. We go into the free agent market looking for bats but we don't focus on whether or not that player will hold their own on defense. We expect guys to just handle things physically rather than working with decision making on things like hitting the cutoff man. We're impressed by a guy's work ethic when he gets himself in great shape or recovers rapidly from an injury yet we don't see that same kind of work ethic applied to improving people's approaches at the plate or in the field.

 

It's like the TWTW philosophy permeates our entire organization. We don't give people the tools they need to be successful, we don't target guys with tools we need, we expect that they'll try harder between the lines, that they'll have more TWTW, and if they fail that's not a failure of preparation beforehand, that's just a lack of TWTW.

 

That's why I stopped hanging this "solely" on the manager. I thing he's just another cog in a failing system.

[LDF]

I've reached the point where I believe that the sloppiness is not just a function of the big league ballclub, it permeates the entire organization.

 

It permeates the draft strategy - we target raw power hitters with lots of swings and misses and then never put them through any kind of ringer to get them adapted to a position. We move guys around all the time on the assumption that unless they're a top pick they're a likely utility guy, so people don't get experience at a position and a chance to struggle and adapt to things like footwork, throwing angles, and basic decision making in the minors. We give guys a chance to get hot for a few months with the bat and then rush them upwards, seemingly forgetting that guys who are hitting well might need time to work on other parts of their game. We expect them to arrive in the big leagues with no major holes in their game and count on them to rapidly become positive contributors even though we pushed people upwards rapidly and then paid no attention to how the different parts of their game worked together. We trade for guys who fit the same mold - power, but little discipline. We go into the free agent market looking for bats but we don't focus on whether or not that player will hold their own on defense. We expect guys to just handle things physically rather than working with decision making on things like hitting the cutoff man. We're impressed by a guy's work ethic when he gets himself in great shape or recovers rapidly from an injury yet we don't see that same kind of work ethic applied to improving people's approaches at the plate or in the field.

 

It's like the TWTW philosophy permeates our entire organization. We don't give people the tools they need to be successful, we don't target guys with tools we need, we expect that they'll try harder between the lines, that they'll have more TWTW, and if they fail that's not a failure of preparation beforehand, that's just a lack of TWTW.

 

That's why I stopped hanging this "solely" on the manager. I thing he's just another cog in a failing system.

 

thanks for your hard work, i like the thought process behind this.

 

but let me ask this, the base running errors, the defensive errors or screw up etc.... are you saying it is all on the players??? the coaches has not input in this?

 

i would also have to question in "is the team fully prepared" every game.

[Balta1701]

thanks for your hard work, i like the thought process behind this.

 

but let me ask this, the base running errors, the defensive errors or screw up etc.... are you saying it is all on the players??? the coaches has not input in this?

 

i would also have to question in "is the team fully prepared" every game.

Let's say it this way. You're a player who is on a team that has been crap for 3 straight seasons. You've got your money. The guy next to you made 3 errors yesterday to give away the game, or the pitcher was left in too long and gave away the game, or your manager gave away the game when he didn't trust you enough to ask for a replay. There's a decent chance you're going to be traded or the guy starting next to you will be traded. Are you going to be 100% ready every day? Are you going to put in the extra set in the weight room or are you maybe going to take it a little easier this time?

 

Human nature is going to involve running out of motivation for a losing squad. The only thing keeping people going for a systematically flawed organization is their own professionalism and that can only take them so far. The greatest manager in the world can't help with that.

 

I think a much bigger indictment of the management staff is how this team comes out of spring training every year. They come out showing the same flaws that I mentioned above - people pushed too rapidly, no changes in approach, losing games to put themselves in the spot at the bottom of the division because it's not about how ready the team is for the season, it's only about TWTW on the field. That's when stuff ought to be correctable and workable. That's when people ought to know "Hey the ball's hit to me I should hit the cutoff man" or "I've got a guy in a rundown the correct move is to run at the guy not to throw the ball".

 

The one year where we didn't behave that way was 2012, with a brand new manager. We came out of ST as the complete opposite of that. I think the only person who did a rundown incorrectly on that roster that year was Youkilis and he started the year with the Red Sox. We got out of our comfort zone somehow and it produced our only above .500 team in the last 5 seasons. Then we fell back into our old habits, because that's the norm for the entire organization. Guys who needed to work to improve from 2012 didn't, guys who had good years in 2012 were content with their performance, and by May of 2013 the manager had the whole team out doing fundamentals work before a game to shame them for how poorly they were performing on the basics again.

[Eminor3rd]

Let me ask you this:

 

Is it possible that the current culture of our organization or our big league clubhouse could have this kind of affect on performance? Is this type of underperformance symptomatic of how our organization is being managed/coached/developed?

 

Yes, it is possible. But what evidence suggests that's the case?

 

RV was at the helm in 2012 when the team won 85 games and Adam Dunn was MLB's Comeback Player of the Year. What's different now? Something might have changed, but we can only speculate. The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim (in this case, the claim that "the White Sox failure is due to incompetent managing by RV"). For example, it's also possible that your brain is being controlled by a robot elephant that lives inside the moon. You'd have a hard time disproving that claim, since you can't see inside the moon, but that doesn't mean you should take it seriously, because there's no evidence to suggest that it IS the case.

 

The crux of my argument/rage on this theme is this: everyone seems to be very passionately sure that RV is the problem, but I don't see anything to suggest that RV is actually the problem.

 

Alexei's D has been dropping off from year to year, so you can't just say this is some unexplainable act of God.

 

Ok, what you just said seems to support the claim the RV is not responsible for Alexei's terrible defense.

 

Is RH to blame for keeping him? Idk, I was among the leaders of the "trade Alexei" charge that existed before all of the acquisitions, but even I don't think that him throwing balls into CF or rolling balls to second with his glove instead of tossing them underhand are the result of physical decline. He's having a bad, dumb year.

 

Melky and Samardizija both had similar rough seasons just in 2013, so I don't see how this completely out of a standard deviation for them. Either way, those two players aren't the only thing keeping this team from being a contender.

 

Melky Cabrera's wRC+ in 2013 was 86, which is roughly equivalent to a solid ML SS. Melky's wRC+ THIS year is 67, which is worse than a typical AAA journeyman. His performance is far-and-away worse than it was in 2013 and, for him, completely unprecedented. There was simply no reason to see this coming.

 

Samardzija has had years like this before, yes, but Samardzija (and the pitching, in general) isn't really the issue.

 

I mention Flowers & Beckham because they are on the roster and have to start the majority of the time. That's not Robin's fault, he didn't make up the roster. Then who's fault is it? Maybe the people who put together the roster? The people who acquired both years ago and are too stubborn to give up on them?

 

I understood where you were going with that, and I think I answered it. Basically, if the better players were playing even remotely close to fair expectations and it STILL wasn't enough to win because of guys like Beckham/Flowers, I'd be furious at RH. But I can't be furious at RH because I don't know if it mattered in the first place, because five to seven of the players on the team are having the worst seasons of their entire careers.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[Balta1701]

Melky Cabrera's wRC+ in 2013 was 86, which is roughly equivalent to a solid ML SS. Melky's wRC+ THIS year is 67, which is worse than a typical AAA journeyman. His performance is far-and-away worse than it was in 2013 and, for him, completely unprecedented.

Completely unprecedented...except for the 68 he put up in 2008. And not that far from the 77 he put up in 2010. Then suddenly in 2011 he got a lot better and in 2012 he was great except for some reason he missed about 50 games.

[GreenSox]

Fault is a weird word to use. I mean we are in the middle of a short retooling process. We had a shot on paper this year but it didn't work out. Clearly we aren't ready at 2b 3b or C yet. So what? Why does somebody have to PAY FOR THIS? Why does a career have to end because of this. Insanity. Stay the course boys, jerksticks loves ya!

That's the thing - you can live with a couple of holes, esp. at catcher. Those aren't the only holes. What retooling did they do that will help this team?

They spent a lot of resources and still have a hole in LF and, frankly, RF (although I'm optimistic). They probably would have needed to sign a FA to fill LF, but Melky was questionable and they could have nuanced some using platoons or waited a year when better options are available.

They have a hole at Shortstop (a big squandered opportunity to sell high on Alexei)

They spent $6 mill on UTILITY INFIELDERS, when they still had holes.

They sent away 4 young players for 1 year of a starter...that's not a move to do when you are retooling. Opinions vary on those 4 young players, but 2 of them are producing a lot better than their Sox counterparts.

They didn't put themselves in a huge financial hole like the Padres did.

But it certainly wasn't a particularly effective year of retooling either.

Edited July 3, 2015 by GreenSox

[Eminor3rd]

Completely unprecedented...except for the 68 he put up in 2008. And not that far from the 77 he put up in 2010. Then suddenly in 2011 he got a lot better and in 2012 he was great except for some reason he missed about 50 games.

 

Then he had a tumor removed and had the best season of his career two years after that 50 game suspension. The point stands, despite the fact that I somehow missed referencing his bad age-23 season seven years ago.

[Balta1701]

Then he had a tumor removed and had the best season of his career two years after that 50 game suspension. The point stands, despite the fact that I somehow missed referencing his bad age-23 season seven years ago.

The good news is that Melky Cabrera's career is one replete with honor and dignity and respect for the game and since he's such a respectable person with no reputation for lying to the league you can have 100% confidence that Melky Cabrera would never do anything during a contract season that would have impacted his performance that year.

[iamshack]

Yes, it is possible. But what evidence suggests that's the case?

 

RV was at the helm in 2012 when the team won 85 games and Adam Dunn was MLB's Comeback Player of the Year. What's different now? Something might have changed, but we can only speculate. The burden of proof lies on the one making the claim (in this case, the claim that "the White Sox failure is due to incompetent managing by RV"). For example, it's also possible that your brain is being controlled by a robot elephant that lives inside the moon. You'd have a hard time disproving that claim, since you can't see inside the moon, but that doesn't mean you should take it seriously, because there's no evidence to suggest that it IS the case.

 

The crux of my argument/rage on this theme is this: everyone seems to be very passionately sure that RV is the problem, but I don't see anything to suggest that RV is actually the problem.

Fair enough. I understand your desire to determine causation, and that's a reasonable desire.

 

Unfortunately, I'm not sure many FOs have the patience to determine whether the manager is part of the problem...but they may be able to determine much more quickly that the manager is not part of the solution.

 

Let's entertain the thought that Balta is correct - and I suspect that he is, at least partially - and that this is an organizational problem. Perhaps then Robin is sharing blame across a wider spectrum rather than carrying more of it himself. Either way, have we seen anything out of the guy which would suggest he is some tremendous leader? Has he done anything which would suggest that he is managing a team that would be winning if not otherwise handicapped by poor organizational philosophies/development? Is this guy a leader in an organization lacking them?

 

[caulfield12]

Amazimg Esconar has a .696 sluggling pct when his OPS is .670. Santiago has an fWAR of 0.9 right in line with the 1.2 fWAR he pit up with the Sox, and which would make him 5th compared to White Sox starters. And if last years stats are what was important, why are you ripping Alexei?

 

Check again...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3...eduardo-escobar

 

Escobar and Semien are both outperforming Ramirez....in the meantime, we have no SS next season.

 

You do realize that war is a cumulative stat over a season, right? Are you taking all of his time as an Angel and comparing to his White Sox career?

 

Are you willing to state for the record the Angels would be better off with John Danks than Hector Santiago, as I see you moved the bar again....? And are u also saying he pitched just as well for the White Sox as the Angels this season?

 

Sigh.

[Dick Allen]

Check again...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/3...eduardo-escobar

 

Escobar and Semien are both outperforming Ramirez....in the meantime, we have no SS next season.

 

You do realize that war is a cumulative stat over a season, right? Are you taking all of his time as an Angel and comparing to his White Sox career?

 

Are you willing to state for the record the Angels would be better off with John Danks than Hector Santiago, as I see you moved the bar again....? And are u also saying he pitched just as well for the White Sox as the Angels this season?

 

Sigh.

I went with innings with Santiago. He was a 1.2 WAR in 140 innings with the White Sox, and a 0.9 in about 94 this year. A cumulative stat would mean that is pretty equal. I have no doubt Escobar and Semien are outperforming Alexei. But since you are all about the advanced stats, why not take a look at Fangraphs. If you are using last year's stats for Escobar, shouldn't you use them for Alexei? The A's bringing in Ron Washington just shows Semien isn't anywhere near what he needs to be defensively. I know you love Santiago, but advanced stats, and that's what you claim the White Sox never use, and only enlightened people use, will show you Santiago is not an All Star. Besides, if these guys were as great as you claim, how in the world would you constantly rip Buddy Bell? Semien has been a negative WAR player the last 2 months. He actually had a higher walk rate with the White Sox last year. You should expect most rookies to improve a little bit. Other than Phegley, a catcher who cannot catch the ball, but is hitting decently in a very small sample size, these guys aren't doing anything more than they would have done if they hadn't been traded. Their performances aren't head and shoulders better than they were with the White Sox.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

Fair enough. I understand your desire to determine causation, and that's a reasonable desire.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure many FOs have the patience to determine whether the manager is part of the problem...but they may be able to determine much more quickly that the manager is not part of the solution.

 

Let's entertain the thought that Balta is correct - and I suspect that he is, at least partially - and that this is an organizational problem. Perhaps then Robin is sharing blame across a wider spectrum rather than carrying more of it himself. Either way, have we seen anything out of the guy which would suggest he is some tremendous leader? Has he done anything which would suggest that he is managing a team that would be winning if not otherwise handicapped by poor organizational philosophies/development? Is this guy a leader in an organization lacking them?

 

To the bolded: absolutely. The FO is in the best position to evaluate him, so we have little choice but to trust them. We may not WANT to trust them, but we aren't privy to clubhouse dynamics like they are.

 

To the second point: I agree, I have not seen anything to suggest RV is adding value to the organization. However, there has been a lot of work done to try to evaluate what a manager CAN contribute, and most of it points to the idea that the manager doesn't make much of a difference at the end of the day. That is NOT to say that the manager's job isn't important, but rather that the difference between the best manager in baseball and the worst is relatively small.

 

So, you're right: I have no grounds and little interest in defending RV. I just think it's silly to spend so much time being so sure he needs to go because I don't think doing so fixes the team.

[Eminor3rd]

The good news is that Melky Cabrera's career is one replete with honor and dignity and respect for the game and since he's such a respectable person with no reputation for lying to the league you can have 100% confidence that Melky Cabrera would never do anything during a contract season that would have impacted his performance that year.

 

You have moved the goalposts, Balta. We're not talking about honor, we're talking about wins.

 

RE wins: Melky is a career 100 wRC+ hitter. At 30 years old, he's putting up 67. PEDs are irrelevant because he's performed both well and badly when both on and off PEDs. If you think he was still on them last year, why do you think he still isn't now?

[Balta1701]

You have moved the goalposts, Balta. We're not talking about honor, we're talking about wins.

 

RE wins: Melky is a career 100 wRC+ hitter. At 30 years old, he's putting up 67. PEDs are irrelevant because he's performed both well and badly when both on and off PEDs. If you think he was still on them last year, why do you think he still isn't now?

He got a really dumb organization to give him $42 million by performing during a contract year. If hypothetically that were chemically-aided, why would he stay on them and risk a positive test that would cost him that money through a suspension?

 

He's well below a career 100 wRC+ hitter if you don't count the clearly steroid-aided Giants and probably Royals seasons. Quick bit of math had him at 90 even assuming he was clean last year. A 30 year old hitter with a career 90 wRC+ putting up a 67 isn't that big of a dropoff or unprecedented in any sense.

[Eminor3rd]

He got a really dumb organization to give him $42 million by performing during a contract year. If hypothetically that were chemically-aided, why would he stay on them and risk a positive test that would cost him that money through a suspension?

 

He's well below a career 100 wRC+ hitter if you don't count the clearly steroid-aided Giants and probably Royals seasons. Quick bit of math had him at 90 even assuming he was clean last year. A 30 year old hitter with a career 90 wRC+ putting up a 67 isn't that big of a dropoff or unprecedented in any sense.

 

This is one of those things where speculation rules. It's the same thing as the manager thing -- we don't know if he's on PEDs or not, we don't know WHEN he was and wasn't, we don't know WHAT he was on, and we don't know how much it helped or didn't help. You're welcome to jump to whichever conclusions that you want regarding all of that, but if you're being intellectually honest, you should acknowledge that you don't actually KNOW what you're talking about here. None of us do.

 

Regardless -- we're talking about what Hahn should/could have expected from Melky this year. If you're going to argue that he should have planned for a 60-something wRC+, I just don't think you have any ground to stand on. This year is WAY off everything we've seen over the entire roller coaster of his career for the past five years.