You are right. Posey beats out Salvy on production with .318, 19, 95. Amazing stats. .379 OBP. Who's better than Perez in the AL?

Russell Martin

You are right. Posey beats out Salvy on production with .318, 19, 95. Amazing stats. .379 OBP. Who's better than Perez in the AL?

 

Stephen Vogt, Brian McCann, Russell Martin were all better on offense than Perez in the AL

Perez was a 1.6 WAR

 

Geo Soto was 1.1 WAR in probably less than half the playing time.

 

Geo might not double the WAR if he played twice as much. Perez, like AJP in his prime, is probably worth more than his WAR as he keeps the back up catcher on the bench.

Edited October 23, 201510 yr by Dick Allen

Stephen Vogt, Brian McCann, Russell Martin were all better on offense than Perez in the AL

Vogt .261 18 71 is identical to Salvy; better OBP at .341

McCann .232, 26, 94; with obp of .320. He was more productive in producing runs but lower BA

Martin .240, 23, 77 with obp of .329. Lower BA, a few more homers and ribbies. Better obp.

 

Oh well you can decide if you want those guys or Salvy. The Sox combo of Flowers/Soto put Salvy-like numbers up combined.

He's the standard for an excellent all around catcher. Who is regarded as better than him?

 

Definitively or "arguably"?

 

Defensively? Buster Posey, Russell Martin, Francisco Cervelli, Yadier Molina, Rene Rivera, and Jonathan Lucroy would be the definites. I would argue that Yan Gomes, Alex Avila, AJ Ellis, Martin Maldonado, Jesus Sucre, and Austin Hedges would at least be considered in the same class.

 

Offensively? Well, here's a list of catchers (minimum 100PA) that had better offensive seasons in 2015 (by wRC+):

 

Buster Posey

Curt Casali

Travis D'Arnaud

Francisco Cervelli

Chris Giminez

AJ Ellis

Yasmani Grandal

Stephen Vogt

Russell Martin

AJ Pierzynski (lol)

Roberto Perez (who?)

Hank Conger

Miguel Montero

Josh Phegley (!)

Brian McCann

Robinson Chirinos

Nick Hundley

Jarrod Saltalamacchia

Matt Weiters

JR Murphy

Welington Castillo

Derek Norris

Steve Clevenger

Geovany Soto

Jonathan Lucroy

Blake Swihart

Andrew Susac

Edited October 23, 201510 yr by Eminor3rd

Definitively or "arguably"?

 

Defensively? Buster Posey, Russell Martin, Francisco Cervelli, Yadier Molina, Rene Rivera, and Jonathan Lucroy would be the definites. I would argue that Yan Gomes, Alex Avila, AJ Ellis, Martin Maldonado, Jesus Sucre, and Austin Hedges would at least be considered in the same class.

 

Offensively? Well, here's a list of catchers (minimum 100PA) that had better offensive seasons in 2015 (by wRC+):

 

Buster Posey

Curt Casali

Travis D'Arnaud

Francisco Cervelli

Chris Giminez

AJ Ellis

Yasmani Grandal

Stephen Vogt

Russell Martin

AJ Pierzynski (lol)

Roberto Perez (who?)

Hank Conger

Miguel Montero

Josh Phegley (!)

Brian McCann

Robinson Chirinos

Nick Hundley

Jarrod Saltalamacchia

Matt Weiters

JR Murphy

Welington Castillo

Derek Norris

Steve Clevenger

Geovany Soto

Jonathan Lucroy

Blake Swihart

Andrew Susac

 

Give me a do-over on this thread. I didn't realize Salvy was a stiff or at best just another guy. My bad.

 

Very few teams get much hitting out of the C and SS positions. Sox need to upgrade at least two out of 2B, 3B, DH and RF.

And LF, which is really a bigger problem than RF since the bad player in LF is immovable thanks to the love of declining veterans. (and, of course, the CW hereon that Melky is a good player and Avi is terrible is just daft).

And to contend, 4/5 will need to be upgraded.

Of course, more declining veterans may be the fix Hahn and Williams seek to upgrade these positions.

Edited October 23, 201510 yr by GreenSox

You are right. Posey beats out Salvy on production with .318, 19, 95. Amazing stats. .379 OBP. Who's better than Perez in the AL?

 

While I would absolutely love to have Salvador Perez (as would most any team), he really isn't that good of an all around hitter. His OBP this year was .280. For comparison sake, thats below Alexei's OBP of .285 this year.

 

The dude is allergic to walking. He walked a grand total of THIRTEEN times in 553 plate appearances. Steven Vogt, Russel Martin and Brian McCann all had higher WARs this year. Once you consider age and contracts, I'd easily take Salvy over any of them, but let's not act like he is a HOF yet. Very, very nice young catcher that is unreal behind the dish, and has a nice bat. That contract is one of the best in the game - it is literally robbery.

And LF, which is really a bigger problem than RF since the bad player in LF is immovable thanks to the love of declining veterans. (and, of course, the CW hereon that Melky is a good player and Avi is terrible is just daft).

And to contend, 4/5 will need to be upgraded.

Of course, more declining veterans may be the fix Hahn and Williams seek to upgrade these positions.

Melky has succeeded in Major League Baseball before. Avi has not come close. Not that daft.

And if you take into consideration his age, leadership abilities, overall performance the last three or four years and especially his contract which is $7 million for five years, he's a top 3-5 catcher in the game.

 

Gomes wasn't healthy this year for most of the season, he's probably better offensively...but you also have to take into consideration the positive effect he has on Volquez, Ventura, Herrera, etc. Having a bi-lingual catcher really helps. He's the bridge in that clubhouse between Latin America and the rest of the team, like Juan Uribe was for the Sox.

 

The best teams have strong leadership...a coach on the field...in that position. Guys like Posey and Molina, as well as Martin once he had his career resurgence in Pitt and matured. McCann was garbage last year and is hugely overpaid. Cervelli has to prove he can do it consistently year after year.

 

Perez has the most favorable contract in baseball, like we always hear about Sale and Q. Other than Posey, for that franchise, there's nobody who fits better (and considering salary as well, you lean towards Perez for overall value as well). Lucroy has his flaws just like Perez does, and he's relatively unproven in postseason play. Salvy also had the biggest clutch hit in the Royals' season last year against the A's in the wc game.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...ARBR/order/true

In 2014 he was 6th in war. You have Lucroy, Martin, Posey, Mesoraco and Gomes ahead of him. Mesoraco looked great and fell apart last year with injury problems.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...on/c/sort/WARBR

2013, sixth again. Castro and Wellington Castillo appear here.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...on/c/sort/WARBR

2012, 8th in war.

 

He has consistently been one of the five or six best overall catchers in the game over that period.

Edited October 23, 201510 yr by caulfield12

Give me a do-over on this thread. I didn't realize Salvy was a stiff or at best just another guy. My bad.

 

Greg, use your brain and don't cave so easily when rebutted.

Give me a do-over on this thread. I didn't realize Salvy was a stiff or at best just another guy. My bad.

 

Granted!

 

He's not a stiff at all, I just wouldn't consider his offense the "ceiling" -- I don't think we should simply accept that we won't get any offense out of the position.

And if you take into consideration his age, leadership abilities, overall performance the last three or four years and especially his contract which is $7 million for five years, he's a top 3-5 catcher in the game.

 

Gomes wasn't healthy this year for most of the season, he's probably better offensively...but you also have to take into consideration the positive effect he has on Volquez, Ventura, Herrera, etc. Having a bi-lingual catcher really helps. He's the bridge in that clubhouse between Latin America and the rest of the team, like Juan Uribe was for the Sox.

 

The best teams have strong leadership...a coach on the field...in that position. Guys like Posey and Molina, as well as Martin once he had his career resurgence in Pitt and matured. McCann was garbage last year and is hugely overpaid. Cervelli has to prove he can do it consistently year after year.

 

Perez has the most favorable contract in baseball, like we always hear about Sale and Q. Other than Posey, for that franchise, there's nobody who fits better (and considering salary as well, you lean towards Perez for overall value as well). Lucroy has his flaws just like Perez does, and he's relatively unproven in postseason play. Salvy also had the biggest clutch hit in the Royals' season last year against the A's in the wc game.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...ARBR/order/true

In 2014 he was 6th in war. You have Lucroy, Martin, Posey, Mesoraco and Gomes ahead of him. Mesoraco looked great and fell apart last year with injury problems.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...on/c/sort/WARBR

2013, sixth again. Castro and Wellington Castillo appear here.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/yea...on/c/sort/WARBR

2012, 8th in war.

 

He has consistently been one of the five or six best overall catchers in the game over that period.

 

Couple issues with your issues:

 

1. The context of the conversation was centered on offense -- greg was positing that C offense is a lost cause because even the best of them are bad. The problem is that Perez is NOT a standard for elite catcher offense, because he's demonstrably NOT an elite offensive catcher. In fact, he's not even average. So the point doesn't stand.

 

2. I concede that Perez is a top ten catcher in the ML if you include defense. I concede that he's a top 5 "value" at catcher in the ML if you include contract as well. Unfortunately, neither of those two factors were relevant to greg's point or my argument.

 

3. Your rankings of "leadership" are completely arbitrary and made up. Of course leadership is important, but who's to say Perez is any better than any of the other guys? Even if he was, how MUCH better? What is your opinion based on? Is it just that he gives Hawk a boner?

 

I'm sorry that I'm so damn irritable tonight.

 

But fo' real though

Edited October 24, 201510 yr by Eminor3rd