Pretty good segment on MLB Now today.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/49502780/v782...quiring-shields

 

I watched it then the one after it where Adi Wyner talked more extensively about pitch framing. Lets just say it made me smile when he finished up by saying he didn't think it was as important as other sabermetricians seem to think. I'

ve argued many times that its flawed just from a common sense standpoint without a math background.

At this point, I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing.

 

Sounds like you're just looking at it from your own perspectives and you feel you're both right but there actually isn't any argument to be made, just different equally valid perspectives on the same topic.

 

At any rate, the White Sox have that pitching niche (although not seeing it with Rodon and Carson Fulmer this year yet) and they have that other niche, which is extracting or maximizing WAR by keeping all their players healthy and on the field as often as possible.

 

While you can question the talent selected, at least we haven't had to replace them with a roster of mostly AA/AAA suspects.

 

 

And 2012 is a good example, we HAD huge surplus value from 11-12 rookies on that roster. We got positive WAR contributions from Youkilis for virtually free for 3-4 weeks there. The problem is that we didn't have the talent overall to beat the Tigers, regardless of our more efficient allocation of resources/WAR. You can argue it was Leyland vs. Ventura or Addison Reed choked or Dunn and the rest of the offense wore down (same with Q in his rookie year). You can argue Cooper got nothing out of Liriano whereas the Pirates figured out a way to completely turn his career around 6 months after Cooper gave up on him and threw in the towel.

 

The argument is basically about supporting the teams current direction as evidenced by trading for Shields vs. questioning that direction and that covers a lot of territory within the organization. Basically it's how the Sox spend their money.

 

It's a subject that can't be covered in lazy sound bites or word bites that a message board usually consists .

 

It's the endless frustrating cycle of not doing enough to have a good minor league system while still having the financial wellness to have a decent major league team.

 

Sometimes the argument strays into using WAR and surplus value but the same problems have existed for many teams since the dawn of free agency. KC ( a close relative of the Sox or slightly poorer cousin ) Hit on their prospects and came very close to winning 2 World Series and spent money to try to extend the run but injuries and looming free agency threaten their success this year and beyond.

 

They and their fans suffered for many years ( we all know something about that) . Opportunities are limited when finances are limited. This makes the need for a strong minor league even more important.Good young talent is better than old good talent because they cost less. It's really that simple.

 

Shields represents the recent Sox philosophy of throwing money ( no matter how good the value appears to be ) at the wrong thing especially when their recent attempts at doing so have had poor results.

 

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So really we are talking about the insanity of the Sox front office.

The Royals hit in the draft with Gordon, Hosmer, Duffy and Moustakas. Hochevar eventually became an effective reliever. But look at their last 20-30 years of draft picks. It's beyond terrible. Worse than the White Sox developing position players terrible. Think Colon, Zimmer and Bubba Starling.

 

They kicked our butts in Latin American development. Getting a franchise catcher in Salvy Perez, as well as Escobar (Ventura would surely be leading off with him, or #2 despite his 500's OPS and lousy OBP "because he's fast"), Yordano Ventura and Herrera, the best 8th inning guy west of Betances/Miller.

 

Hit with the Wade Davis and Shields acquisition to turn the team's belief in itself around and discovered the best closer in the AL in a failed starter.

 

Then they made a series of really smart and budget conscious free agents moves: Edinson Volquez, Madson (who they should have kept instead of adding Soria), Chris Young, Blanton, Kendrys Morales, Gomes (clubhouse/leadership/cheerleader), Medlen. Rios, of course was a disaster, as we all know.

 

And then part four, they had the depth to trade for Shields/Davis, for Cueto and Zobrist....in Lamb, Montgomery, Sean Manaea, Finnegan, Odorrizi, Wil Myers, etc.

 

 

Without all those key elements, they wouldn't have been nearly so successful. And Yost was the perfect manager for that team at the right time for the franchise, as it was transitioning from development to "winning now."

I watched it then the one after it where Adi Wyner talked more extensively about pitch framing. Lets just say it made me smile when he finished up by saying he didn't think it was as important as other sabermetricians seem to think. I'

ve argued many times that its flawed just from a common sense standpoint without a math background.

 

I tend to agree. I think there are too many factors that skew a call to the point where it isn't just on the catcher like many on here try to blame it on our guys during games.

The Royals hit in the draft with Gordon, Hosmer, Duffy and Moustakas. Hochevar eventually became an effective reliever. But look at their last 20-30 years of draft picks. It's beyond terrible. Worse than the White Sox developing position players terrible. Think Colon, Zimmer and Bubba Starling.

 

They kicked our butts in Latin American development. Getting a franchise catcher in Salvy Perez, as well as Escobar (Ventura would surely be leading off with him, or #2 despite his 500's OPS and lousy OBP "because he's fast"), Yordano Ventura and Herrera, the best 8th inning guy west of Betances/Miller.

 

Hit with the Wade Davis and Shields acquisition to turn the team's belief in itself around and discovered the best closer in the AL in a failed starter.

 

Then they made a series of really smart and budget conscious free agents moves: Edinson Volquez, Madson (who they should have kept instead of adding Soria), Chris Young, Blanton, Kendrys Morales, Gomes (clubhouse/leadership/cheerleader), Medlen. Rios, of course was a disaster, as we all know.

 

And then part four, they had the depth to trade for Shields/Davis, for Cueto and Zobrist....in Lamb, Montgomery, Sean Manaea, Finnegan, Odorrizi, Wil Myers, etc.

 

 

Without all those key elements, they wouldn't have been nearly so successful. And Yost was the perfect manager for that team at the right time for the franchise, as it was transitioning from development to "winning now."

 

 

Escobar was acquired from Milwaukee in the Greinke deal

The problem with acquiring a guy like Shields is if he does what he was acquired to do, be a 4th starter, it will be a disappointment to the majority of fans who expect him to be an ace.

There are zero fans who expect James Shields to be an ace. Where do you get that?

And there's the whole Dave Wilder situation. Many many Dominicans went on to become stars.How many did the Sox have. None that I can recall. Sox seemed to think Venezuela was the place to be because of the past results maybe. Luis Aparicio, Chico Carrasquel, Freddy Garcia, Ozzie Guillen Magglio Ordonez. Even now they have Quintana, Carlos Sanchez, Avisail Garcia and Dionner Navarro all from Venezuela.

 

Quintana is from Colombia.

There are zero fans who expect James Shields to be an ace. Where do you get that?

Yup, I'd be ecstatic if he could be a #3, with my expection that he'll be a #4. His days as an ace are long gone & most fans are already aware of this.

Edited June 7, 20169 yr by Chicago White Sox

Anybody that thinks James Shields was ever an ace is crazy. David Price was the ace of those Rays teams, Shields has always been a compliment.

Anybody that thinks James Shields was ever an ace is crazy. David Price was the ace of those Rays teams, Shields has always been a compliment.

 

During the years of their success, Price had one great year in 2012. In 2011 and 2013 when the Rays made the playoffs he was 22-21 combined. Shields those same two years was 29-21.

 

 

Anybody that thinks James Shields was ever an ace is crazy. David Price was the ace of those Rays teams, Shields has always been a compliment.

He was definitely KCs ace...

He was definitely KCs ace...

 

That 3.53 FIP screams ace

Edited June 7, 20169 yr by Dunt

I know a lot of people may not like what I am posting but Theo Epstein came into the Cubs organization and told everyone he had a 5 year plan. He redeveloped their minor league system much like the Cardinals. How is that working out so far?

 

I have been saying for years the WS should do the same. Why can't the WS develop good players? Maybe it's the minor league coaches. Maybe start there and replace them with better ones. It seems the front office is hell bent on obtaining aging veterans (Dunn, LaRoche, Griffey Jr., Rollins, etc.) to help the cause. How has that worked so far?

 

 

I know a lot of people may not like what I am posting but Theo Epstein came into the Cubs organization and told everyone he had a 5 year plan. He redeveloped their minor league system much like the Cardinals. How is that working out so far?

 

I have been saying for years the WS should do the same. Why can't the WS develop good players? Maybe it's the minor league coaches. Maybe start there and replace them with better ones. It seems the front office is hell bent on obtaining aging veterans (Dunn, LaRoche, Griffey Jr., Rollins, etc.) to help the cause. How has that worked so far?

How many players on the Cubs were really developed by the team? Was Bryant developed? He spend a lot of money and made some astute trades. I believe the only guy Theo actually drafted that is on the Cubs active roster is Bryant.

 

Could you imagine the crap KW, JR, and RH would take if they tanked for 5 years and had 1 draft pick on the roster?

Edited June 7, 20169 yr by Dick Allen

That 3.53 FIP screams ace

 

During his two seasons with the Royals he was 20th in all of baseball in fWAR. That is pretty damn good.

I know a lot of people may not like what I am posting but Theo Epstein came into the Cubs organization and told everyone he had a 5 year plan. He redeveloped their minor league system much like the Cardinals. How is that working out so far?

 

I have been saying for years the WS should do the same. Why can't the WS develop good players? Maybe it's the minor league coaches. Maybe start there and replace them with better ones. It seems the front office is hell bent on obtaining aging veterans (Dunn, LaRoche, Griffey Jr., Rollins, etc.) to help the cause. How has that worked so far?

 

If the Sox had the Cubs fan base, they could do this. Remember the rebuild was based around not only the farm system rebuild, but bringing in about half a billion dollars worth of free agents, even with Wrigley Field filled during terrible seasons. This could never happen on the south side.

When you can acquire Rizzo, Arrieta and Addison Russell via trade, that would constitute 3-5 years in White Sox time...Fowler for Straily/Valbuena (although Straily's actually been really good this year), Strop, Hammel, Adam Warren, McKinney...sign a number of top international free agents like Soler, Eloy Jimenez and Gleyber Torres...draft Baez, Schwarber and Happ, they've done a pretty darned good job. Let's just say they haven't made too many mistakes. They basically stole Hector Rondon from the Indians. Not to mention bringing in Maddon, that has to be counted, too.

 

Going by that 60/40 rule (40% of your moves don't work out), then you have obvious misfires like Edwin Jackson and Jason Heyward so far...Almora is probably going to be a miss too, and the jury's far from out on Baez/Soler.

 

Then signing Lester, Fowler (second time), Zobrist, Lackey...not bad at all. Even Kendricks has been surprisingly good for another year.

 

 

Now that there is Caulfield post.

Could you imagine the crap KW, JR, and RH would take if they tanked for 5 years and had 1 draft pick on the roster?

 

If they were the best team in baseball, I don't think people would be complaining.

 

Now that there is Caulfield post.

 

If the Sox had the Cubs fan base, they could do this. Remember the rebuild was based around not only the farm system rebuild, but bringing in about half a billion dollars worth of free agents, even with Wrigley Field filled during terrible seasons. This could never happen on the south side.

 

 

Then how did it happen in Detroit? Ilitch spent the money, built a winner...and then the fans started showing up and became loyal customers. They didn't come out first and buy season ticket packages after having historically some of the worst seasons in franchise history, THEN he authorized spending the money.

 

So we should say it could never happen with the Reinsdorf family still in charge of the team.

 

That's all fine and good, maybe 17-18 franchises work in that same fashion. The other teams prioritize winning first, budgets second.

Edited June 7, 20169 yr by caulfield12

Then how did it happen in Detroit? Ilitch spent the money, built a winner...and then the fans started showing up and became loyal customers. They didn't come out first and buy season ticket packages after having historically some of the worst seasons in franchise history, THEN he authorized spending the money.

 

So we should say it could never happen with the Reinsdorf family still in charge of the team.

 

That's all fine and good, maybe 17-18 franchises work in that same fashion. The other teams prioritize winning first, budgets second.

 

They traded away their top 5 prospects for a once in a generation hitting talent.

Then how did it happen in Detroit? Ilitch spent the money, built a winner...and then the fans started showing up and became loyal customers. They didn't come out first and buy season ticket packages after having historically some of the worst seasons in franchise history, THEN he authorized spending the money.

 

So we should say it could never happen with the Reinsdorf family still in charge of the team.

 

That's all fine and good, maybe 17-18 franchises work in that same fashion. The other teams prioritize winning first, budgets second.

 

Ironically the best thing to happen to Detroit during that stretch wasn't any move they made. It was Gonzalez not signing the 7 year $140 extension before falling apart and busting.

Umm...they traded two, Miller and Cameron Maybin. Drafted Verlander. Traded for Scherzer, that was a huge move.

 

But, just as importantly, Ilitch became willing to spend money on guys like Victor Martinez, Cecil Fielder (turned into Ian Kinsler), Magglio Ordonez, Juan Gonzalez (turned down), Pudge Rodriguez, Carlos Guillen, Fister, overspent to draft Porcello, etc.

 

Authorized more spending on Verlander/Cabrera (perhaps foolishly), Jordan Zimmermann, Upton, etc.

Umm...they traded two, Miller and Cameron Maybin. Drafted Verlander. Traded for Scherzer, that was a huge move.

 

But, just as importantly, Ilitch became willing to spend money on guys like Victor Martinez, Cecil Fielder (turned into Ian Kinsler), Magglio Ordonez, Juan Gonzalez (turned down), Pudge Rodriguez, Carlos Guillen, Fister, overspent to draft Porcello, etc.

 

Authorized more spending on Verlander/Cabrera (perhaps foolishly), Jordan Zimmermann, Upton, etc.

 

Cecil Fielder, eh?