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fathom

Sox and Sawks to see if the Price is Right

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3 minutes ago, fathom said:

Angels

Yea because they are a joke and right up there with the Sox as far as gullible and misguided FO. A least in this case Reinsdorf's obstinacy regarding pitchers contracts might actually help us.

Otherwise I'd say the Cardinals because they have a ton of MLB ready OF's to give up and it won't hurt them at all. But they won't be giving up Edmen or Carlson that's for sure.

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yea because they are a joke and right up there with the Sox as far as gullible and misguided FO. A least in this case Reinsdorf's obstinacy regarding pitchers contracts might actually help us.

Otherwise I'd say the Cardinals because they have a ton of MLB ready OF's to give up and it won't hurt them at all. But they won't be giving up Edmen or Carlson that's for sure.

Trading for Price is generally a bad idea, and yeah Moreno is a bit short sighted but at least he puts his money where his mouth is. Couple that with a GM who can guide him well and the Angel's would be back to being a perennial powerhouse. We dont have either.

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17 minutes ago, Orlando said:

It’s really obvious Price gets traded. If you had to guess right now, what team and what package?

White Sox but without Benintendi.  Just seems like something we’d do.

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13 minutes ago, South Sider said:

Trading for Price is generally a bad idea, and yeah Moreno is a bit short sighted but at least he puts his money where his mouth is. Couple that with a GM who can guide him well and the Angel's would be back to being a perennial powerhouse. We dont have either.

Moreno severely handicapped his GM with the Pujols contract. Upton was a -.9 in WAR last year and still has a few years to go. Don't forget Josh Hamilton who our good buddy Jon Daniels signed when he was GM ing  the Angels.The Angels are the poster child of why you don't take on big contracts of aging and injured players.

They got lucky that Ohtani preferred a West Coast team.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

White Sox but without Benintendi.  Just seems like something we’d do.

Ugh, that would ruin most of the point of doing it, lol.

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3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Moreno severely handicapped his GM with the Pujols contract. Upton was a -.9 in WAR last year and still has a few years to go. Don't forget Josh Hamilton who our good buddy Jon Daniels signed when he was GM ing  the Angels.The Angels are the poster child of why you don't take on big contracts of aging and injured players.

They got lucky that Ohtani preferred a West Coast team.

Jon Daniels has been with the Rangers since like the John Danks trade at least.... 

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5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Moreno severely handicapped his GM with the Pujols contract. Upton was a -.9 in WAR last year and still has a few years to go. Don't forget Josh Hamilton who our good buddy Jon Daniels signed when he was GM ing  the Angels.The Angels are the poster child of why you don't take on big contracts of aging and injured players.

They got lucky that Ohtani preferred a West Coast team.

Indeed, those are bad signings... ones a more aggressive GM may have been able to stave off... who really knows? Fact is he still isn't shying away from the big bucks and landed Rendon... a much safer bet of a player than Upton or Pujols.

Moreno is not a gold star of an owner, but a guy like him coupled with smarter baseball people could mess this league up.

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2 minutes ago, South Sider said:

Indeed, those are bad signings... ones a more aggressive GM may have been able to stave off... who really knows? Fact is he still isn't shying away from the big bucks and landed Rendon... a much safer bet of a player than Upton or Pujols.

Moreno is not a gold star of an owner, but a guy like him coupled with smarter baseball people could mess this league up.

But they need pitching even more than we do . Rendon went where the money was and maybe wanted to play with Trout but their starting pitching is a huge mess.

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8 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Jon Daniels has been with the Rangers since like the John Danks trade at least.... 

I was gonna say the same thing.  He's been the Rangers GM for 15 years.  NOTHING to do with Anaheim.

 

Dipoto was gm in Anaheim when Hamilton signed.

Edited by bschmaranz

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11 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Jon Daniels has been with the Rangers since like the John Danks trade at least.... 

My bad was reading Daniels material at the same time when researching the Hamilton signing. but it was Jerry Di Poto.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But they need pitching even more than we do . Rendon went where the money was and maybe wanted to play with Trout but their starting pitching is a huge mess.

I can't argue with that. They were supposed to be in on Cole and couldn't follow through. I guess even Moreno has contracts that get to a level he is uncomfortable with.

But the Rendon signing is a great one. They have a lot  of work to do on that rotation, but they are making sure at least some key pieces are in place - if only on offense. Honestly, with Moreno, the only thing I like about him is that he is willing to spend. He doesn't seem like the brightest spender but that's where you put the smart people around you who can tame your wildest instincts and spend your money wisely. There is a fine balance. I respect him because he spends, but he doesn't always spend wisely. Our owner spends wisely to a fault, and refuses to ever spend excessively, even if it's somewhat justified.

The absolute defeatist attitude this organization has had about top FAs since Machado is pathetic. From the complete lack of effort on Harper after Machado went to SD, to this offseason... is an absolute admission of complete patheticness and... as my friend told me today, I'm usually a glass half full kind of guy, and even I'm fed up which is weird, I can't defend this garbage any longer. 

 

 

 

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I don't think there is any way this gets done with us which is fine.  

I just have zero idea what their plan is and nothing is really being said, which I guess is also fine.

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Shields sucked but became serviceable for a time. The problem with that trade was that  instead of getting a Benintendi that would be controllable for 3 years, we GAVE away Tatis Jr., a future All Star. 

Eovaldi contract is less but he might be a larger gamble. Really any pitcher is a gamble in terms of unknown durability, possible TJ surgery and other arm issues that could creep up.

There is no perfect pitcher or perfect trade. If you aren't going to take some risk you probably aren't going to win.

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I get the thought that Benintendi was a top prospect and he could figure it out like Moncada did. I just hate the idea of picking up Price and that contract. Not sure why sox dont go to Ryu and Keuchel and over pay for them. At least those two would anchor the staff for the next few years. Would take alot of pressure off of Gio and Kopech. 

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1 minute ago, ThunderStruck said:

I get the thought that Benintendi was a top prospect and he could figure it out like Moncada did. I just hate the idea of picking up Price and that contract. Not sure why sox dont go to Ryu and Keuchel and over pay for them. At least those two would anchor the staff for the next few years. Would take alot of pressure off of Gio and Kopech. 

Thanks for stopping by. I don't see the Sox as the "overpaying" types. Once Ryu and Keuchuel prices get out of their comfort level, they are gonna be out. If that doesn't happen, these negotiations will last until March as the Sox try to save a few million instead of just singing the effing guy and being done with it.

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17 minutes ago, South Sider said:

I can't argue with that. They were supposed to be in on Cole and couldn't follow through. I guess even Moreno has contracts that get to a level he is uncomfortable with.

But the Rendon signing is a great one. They have a lot  of work to do on that rotation, but they are making sure at least some key pieces are in place - if only on offense. Honestly, with Moreno, the only thing I like about him is that he is willing to spend. He doesn't seem like the brightest spender but that's where you put the smart people around you who can tame your wildest instincts and spend your money wisely. There is a fine balance. I respect him because he spends, but he doesn't always spend wisely. Our owner spends wisely to a fault, and refuses to ever spend excessively, even if it's somewhat justified.

The absolute defeatist attitude this organization has had about top FAs since Machado is pathetic. From the complete lack of effort on Harper after Machado went to SD, to this offseason... is an absolute admission of complete patheticness and... as my friend told me today, I'm usually a glass half full kind of guy, and even I'm fed up which is weird, I can't defend this garbage any longer. 

 

 

 

Can't disagree with anything you said. Good talk ! It's a shame Wheeler picked the Phils. That was a major blow because he might've been the one guy who we had great shot at getting. Now the rest of the options with Boras or NL guys probably preferring NL teams are not half as appealing. Wheeler is the difference between what could've been a great off season and one of despair that's even getting the glass half full kind of guys like me and you troubled.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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Your right sox wont over pay its against their beliefs. I really wish Jerry and Hahn would realize that top free agents dont want to play for the sox. So they have to do something to force the issue. The young talent is promising but without a few decent free agents it's going to be awful hard going deep in the post season.

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14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Can't disagree with anything you said. Good talk ! It's a shame Wheeler picked the Phils. That was a major blow because he might've been the one guy who we had great shot at getting. Now the rest of the options with Boras or NL guys probably preferring NL teams are not half as appealing. Wheeler is the difference between what could've been a great off season and one of despair that's even getting the glass half full kind of guys like me and you troubled.

Oh yeah it stinks that Wheeler picked the Phillies lesser offer... but money talks. Suck up your useless pride and offer the guy you targeted enough to make him say "hmmm".. but this organization is so anti overpaying that it wont happen. Wheeler could have been bought at the right price, but the Sox once again stuck to their guns and they missed out on the their target.

I guess penny smart, pound foolish may apply here?

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3 minutes ago, ThunderStruck said:

Your right sox wont over pay its against their beliefs. I really wish Jerry and Hahn would realize that top free agents dont want to play for the sox. So they have to do something to force the issue. The young talent is promising but without a few decent free agents it's going to be awful hard going deep in the post season.

I agree. They continue to operate like the We Suck Tax doesnt exist but it clearly does because Wheeler had a price that he would have accepted (everyone can be bought for the right price) but whatever it was, Sox weren't willing to meet. Wife or not, that is the definition of the We Suck Tax and Hahn better not ever push that rhetoric against it again.

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6 hours ago, South Sider said:

Oh yeah it stinks that Wheeler picked the Phillies lesser offer... but money talks. Suck up your useless pride and offer the guy you targeted enough to make him say "hmmm".. but this organization is so anti overpaying that it wont happen. Wheeler could have been bought at the right price, but the Sox once again stuck to their guns and they missed out on the their target.

I guess penny smart, pound foolish may apply here?

Well they made the best offer and it's very possible he just wanted to play in Philly. We have no idea if his agent came back to the Sox and said look you have the high offer but he's going to Philly and even offering more won't change his mind or said the opposite and told them just a little more and you have him. Without that info I can't condemn the Sox. If we truly are glass half full guys I can't blame any team if that happens . I think it's unreasonable for most to say just offer the most money and when we do turn around and now say there's a "we suck" tax. What's next another tax on top of that called the " you're not the Cubs tax " ?

We don't suck. Grandal signed here and if a pitcher doesn't want to pitch to one of the best pitch framers in the game that's his loss. Fuck Wheeler more so than fuck the Sox.

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8 hours ago, Flash said:

per Craig Edwards at Fangraphs "If Price were a free agent today, it’s tough to see him getting anything other than a one-year deal, but even over two years, it’s hard to see his value as any more than $30 million.

If we assume Price’s value is around $30 million, it creates a $60 million gap between his value and his contract. Maybe saving $5 million to $10 million in payroll is enough to satisfy Boston, but presumably they are looking for greater savings by potentially moving their most expensive player. If that’s the case and the Red Sox are intent on lowering payroll, then Passan’s suggestion to attach a player of value makes some sense. The problem, then, is finding such a player."

Goes on to suggest that Benintendi would offset most of the deficit.

This will drive the analytics departments crazy in any organization.  A $60 million gap in value.  If that is true, I do not know how this trade is ever made if an organization has truly bought into analytics.  Seems according to this that it would cost more than just Benintendi...............   Just want the White Sox to get some pitching without giving up Vaughn or Madrigal, if not, those two losing seasons were even more of a failure.   Just waiting with the rest of you! Have a great day. 

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1 hour ago, sox71 said:

This will drive the analytics departments crazy in any organization.  A $60 million gap in value.  If that is true, I do not know how this trade is ever made if an organization has truly bought into analytics.  Seems according to this that it would cost more than just Benintendi...............   Just want the White Sox to get some pitching without giving up Vaughn or Madrigal, if not, those two losing seasons were even more of a failure.   Just waiting with the rest of you! Have a great day. 

It's hard to comprehend why anyone would think that a team should be willing to include any decent prospect, in a deal for Price and Benintendi. Even if the analytics are off slightly, there is no rational argument for a team to agree to take that awful Price contract, without Boston adding something of value, and without requiring any player in return. I assume that every front office is aware of the analytics and gives them credence. Therefore, I will be shocked if Bloom gets his way.

Moreover, I suspect that every GM realizes that they can bargain from a position of strength. As I've repeatedly stated, the buyer has the leverage here. It's the seller who needs to get this done. My questions are; how many teams would accept Price and Benintendi, while agreeing to not demand any money back, and if there aren't any teams willing to do that, how much more might a team be able to squeeze out of Boston?

I understand that there is always the possibility that Boston would agree to add some money to the deal, in order to get Price's contract moved, or even to acquire some prospects. However, I suspect that Bloom would prefer to get the maximum salary relief, which is apparently the primary motivation for the deal, to begin with. 

Edited by Lillian

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1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well they made the best offer and it's very possible he just wanted to play in Philly. We have no idea if his agent came back to the Sox and said look you have the high offer but he's going to Philly and even offering more won't change his mind or said the opposite and told them just a little more and you have him. Without that info I can't condemn the Sox. If we truly are glass half full guys I can't blame any team if that happens . I think it's unreasonable for most to say just offer the most money and when we do turn around and now say there's a "we suck" tax. What's next another tax on top of that called the " you're not the Cubs tax " ?

We don't suck. Grandal signed here and if a pitcher doesn't want to pitch to one of the best pitch framers in the game that's his loss. Fuck Wheeler more so than fuck the Sox.

Very good post. Agree with everything.

I would add, let's let the off season play out and see what happens before we jump to conclusions.

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Red Sox plan to keep Bentendo. There are other suitors for Price. 

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4 minutes ago, pcq said:

Red Sox plan to keep Bentendo. There are other suitors for Price. 

That's what Boston says. Count me as a cynic. I'll believe it, when I see it.

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