Yoda Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Jose Contreras 8-4 5.54 ERA IP 95.2 H 93 HR 22 Esteban Loaiza 9-5 4.86 ERA IP 140.2 H 156 HR 23 What the hell is going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Did we need a new thread for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted July 31, 2004 Author Share Posted July 31, 2004 I don’t really know what is up with the 5.54 ERA but can someone please tell me why he may turn it around here in the south side of Chicago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 I don’t really know what is up with the 5.54 ERA but can someone please tell me why he may turn it around here in the south side of Chicago? Not nearly as much pressure and if poissible.... Could someone figure out his stats since his family came home... I believe they are improved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotop Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Yoda, Contreras has better stuff than E-Lo. It's that simple. The numbers don't always tell the whole story when one guy throws in the 90's and the other barely throws 90. Also, the Sox were NOT going to re-sign E-Lo for the money he wanted. Financally, it doesn't make much sense. With Contreras you get more stability in your rotation for the next two years. Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland is a pretty damn good top 4. This is a great deal in my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Basically he had 3 great starts in early to mid July, only giving up 1 ER in each. Then his last 2 starts have been terrible, those are the two I'm betting Ozzie was talking about that he was tipping his pitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted July 31, 2004 Author Share Posted July 31, 2004 Yoda, Contreras has better stuff than E-Lo. It's that simple. The numbers don't always tell the whole story when one guy throws in the 90's and the other barely throws 90. Also, the Sox were NOT going to re-sign E-Lo for the money he wanted. Financally, it doesn't make much sense. With Contreras you get more stability in your rotation for the next two years. Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland is a pretty damn good top 4. This is a great deal in my mind. Thank you Fotop Hopefully Contreras will make our starting rotation look more dominant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Basically he had 3 great starts in early to mid July, only giving up 1 ER in each. Then his last 2 starts have been terrible, those are the two I'm betting Ozzie was talking about that he was tipping his pitches. The start he just had against the orioles was on 3 days rest, so you can kind of throw that start out. He's get exceptional stuff and if he stops tipping his pitches he'll be damn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Jose Contreras 8-4 5.54 ERA IP 95.2 H 93 HR 22 Esteban Loaiza 9-5 4.86 ERA IP 140.2 H 156 HR 23 What the hell is going on? This is why we made the move... Esteban's W-L and ERA since June 1 - 3-2 6.04 Contreras's W-L and ERA since June 1 - 6-3 5.01 The ERA is not nearly as good, but it is an entire run lower, which is worth something. That and the fact that he actually has better stuff then Esteban. I love the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Let's also not forget that Contreras has been Stine's whipping boy in NY the last 2 years. Starter...... Reliever....... Starter...... Reliever....... Down to minors....... Starter...... Reliever.......Down to minors.... Starter How can anyone be productive when he is tossed atound so much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 This is an excellent trade.... Contreras is not going to be pressured, he is not in some situation where he needs to be outstanding.. This is going to pay off, I can see Contreras pitching very well for us.. I love the move.. IIRC he can throw in the high 90's... I have a good feeling about this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 Esteban seems to have run out of gas, where as Contreras has the stuff, just hasnt put it together. Perhaps being on a team with Ozzie and knowing hes going to be a starter for the next 2 years will boost his confidence. He has the stuff, now he needs to put it together. I like the trade, and hope to love it after Contreras next start. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 I don't doubt that Conteras has better stuff than Loaiza. I just don't know if he uses the stuff that he has as well as Loaiza. I was all for this trade until I saw his ERA. I didn't think it'd be that high. He has had a better last few months though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzietheairedale Posted July 31, 2004 Share Posted July 31, 2004 This is why we made the move... Esteban's W-L and ERA since June 1 - 3-2 6.04 Contreras's W-L and ERA since June 1 - 6-3 5.01 The ERA is not nearly as good, but it is an entire run lower, which is worth something. That and the fact that he actually has better stuff then Esteban. I love the move. No, that's not why he made the move. He made the move for 2005 and 2006. This year it's a negative for the Sox. Probably Loaiza would have been better if KW was just thinking about this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 This is an excellent trade.... Contreras is not going to be pressured, he is not in some situation where he needs to be outstanding.. This is going to pay off, I can see Contreras pitching very well for us.. I love the move.. IIRC he can throw in the high 90's... I have a good feeling about this 93-95 Good Split finger pitch. No pressure in Chicago mostly latin clubhouse, Ozzie, Good Talent. Security all reasons why Contreras sould get better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I don’t really know what is up with the 5.54 ERA but can someone please tell me why he may turn it around here in the south side of Chicago? Becuase he gets a lot of strikeouts and gives up fewer hits then innings pitched. The big reason he gives up his homers is because he is tipping his pitches. This means he has a bit of a different delivery or does something with his glove when he throws different pitches, so teams can sit on a pitch or two. He also has a bit of a mechanical flaw that ocassionally leaves his breaking stuff flat. The Sox seem very confident that they have identified it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Becuase he gets a lot of strikeouts and gives up fewer hits then innings pitched. The big reason he gives up his homers is because he is tipping his pitches. This means he has a bit of a different delivery or does something with his glove when he throws different pitches, so teams can sit on a pitch or two. He also has a bit of a mechanical flaw that ocassionally leaves his breaking stuff flat. The Sox seem very confident that they have identified it. If Coop can figure Out contreras then he's gonna be tough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Contreras is not going to be pressured, he is not in some situation where he needs to be outstanding.. I don't know if I agree with this - I think he WILL be expected to be outstanding, given the makeup of the Sox rotation and the still-alive expectations of catching the Twins. I hope he's up to the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Maybe the Yankees have noticed ELo has been tipping his pitches and they'll fix him, too. That's the lamest thing I've ever heard a GM say. Tipping pitches, give me a break. Just like ELo's been tipping his pitches. I want a GM who gets us quality and gives up s*** in return. See the Cubs' trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballpark Frank - Big Hurt Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Maybe the Yankees have noticed ELo has been tipping his pitches and they'll fix him, too. That's the lamest thing I've ever heard a GM say. Tipping pitches, give me a break. Just like ELo's been tipping his pitches. I want a GM who gets us quality and gives up s*** in return. See the Cubs' trade. I dunno about you but i think this is a great trade. Contreras is an excellent pick-up because he will be one of the few "power pitchers" on the team. Although it is not a great thing to see Loaiza leave we only would've had him for another two or three months since he is a free agent at the end of the season. Overall i am very optimistic about Contreras for not only this season, but the next season as well. Kenny is successfully finding ways to improve the team for this season but also keep it in tact for the next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotop Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Maybe the Yankees have noticed ELo has been tipping his pitches and they'll fix him, too. That's the lamest thing I've ever heard a GM say. Tipping pitches, give me a break. Just like ELo's been tipping his pitches. I want a GM who gets us quality and gives up s*** in return. See the Cubs' trade. Did the Cubs make a good trade for their CURRENT SITUATION? Hell yes. However, the reason they were able to give up "s***" is because they've been building their farm system for years. Beltran and Harris are high minors tradeable talent (something we don't have anymore since dealing for Garcia and Everett). This type of talent is key to making the big acquisitions. Give our system a few years and it'll be in the same situation (Sweeney, Anderson, BMac, etc.) however I wouldn't want to trade those guys for someone who we'd have for only 3 months. I doubt you'll be talking about how great the Cubs trade is if they don't make the playoffs and not sign Nomar. Then it turns into dumping a decent amount of talent for a failed Wild Card cause. Good gamble in my mind, but far from "OMG THE CUBS ARE SO SMART!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuehrleTheAce Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Jose Contreras' July starts: Season to Date Date Opponent Score Dec IP H R ER HR BB K W L SV BS IP ERA BAA Jul 29 BAL L 1-9 L 6.2 8 7 7 1 2 7 8 5 0 0 95.2 5.64 .236 Jul 25 @ BOS L 6-9 L 5.1 9 8 8 3 2 3 8 4 0 0 89.0 5.36 .232 Jul 20 @ TAM W 4-2 W 7.0 4 2 1 0 2 3 8 3 0 0 83.2 4.84 .226 Jul 15 @ DET W 5-1 W 8.0 4 1 1 0 1 7 7 3 0 0 76.2 5.17 .231 Jul 8 TAM W 7-1 W 6.2 3 1 1 0 3 3 6 3 0 0 68.2 5.64 .239 Jul 3 @ NYM L 9-10 ND 5.0 8 7 7 3 1 4 5 3 0 0 62.0 6.10 .250 He was reunited with his family from Cuba before his July 8th game. For the next 3 games he was lights out. Then in the past two starts he got rocked, thus prompting GMs to consider that he was tipping his pitches. The Sox believe they've figured out how to correct this and if Coop can do with Jose what he can't seem to do with the rest of the pitching staff, we will have a dominant starting three in Buehrle, Garcia, and Contreras. Contreras has dominating stuff, with his fastball hitting mid- to high 90s MPH. His strikeouts-to-walks ratio this year is nearly 2-1 with 82 Ks and 42 Ws. In his 6 July starts he has a 27-11 strikeout-to-walk ratio, approxmately a 2.5-to-1 advantage. This year, lefties and righties are hitting him at about the same rate, with lefties going .242 and righties .258. His WHIP in 2004 is a bit alarming at 1.41, however he's given up fewer hits than innings pitched, at 93 hits in 95.2 innings. Jose is slated to start Tuesday for the White Sox at Kansas City. This will be his first start in 2 big league years against the Royals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I like this move in pretty much every way. Loaiza has shown that he was a fluke and isn't anywhere near the pitcher he was last year, and he is expecting a big deal this offseason. What we got is a somewhat troubled starter, but he has monsterous stuff and may improve dramatically without the constant pressure that was present on the Yankees. Not only does he have a mid 90's fastball, but he has an absolutely filthy forkball. If he ever gets confidence in his stuff, he's going to dominate. Plus supposedly Cooper found a flaw in his delivery that was tipping his pitches, which will hopefully help. The best part is the Yankees are eating a bunch of his contract and he is signed for two more seasons. There's been some dispute over how much we are paying, but I would rather have him than Loaiza whether we are paying $4 mil or $6 mil per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 I like this move in pretty much every way. Loaiza has shown that he was a fluke and isn't anywhere near the pitcher he was last year, and he is expecting a big deal this offseason. What we got is a somewhat troubled starter, but he has monsterous stuff and may improve dramatically without the constant pressure that was present on the Yankees. Not only does he have a mid 90's fastball, but he has an absolutely filthy forkball. If he ever gets confidence in his stuff, he's going to dominate. Plus supposedly Cooper found a flaw in his delivery that was tipping his pitches, which will hopefully help. The best part is the Yankees are eating a bunch of his contract and he is signed for two more seasons. There's been some dispute over how much we are paying, but I would rather have him than Loaiza whether we are paying $4 mil or $6 mil per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Sorry I posted my comment twice, the site crapped out on me mid post, I didn't think it went through. A couple comments on previous posts. I don't think it would really matter much if Loaiza were "tipping his pitches" for two major reasons. One is that he has several that he throws, making it a little harder to discern, while Contreras mainly relies on his fastball and forkball. A key part of making his forkball effective is the hitter thinking it is a fastball. I suppose Loiaza could be tipping when he is going to throw breaking stuff, but that leads me to my second reason. Contreras has explosive stuff, so if the hitters stay off balance they are in trouble. If Loaiza isn't tipping, it doesn't seem like it matters because his stuff isn't that sharp anymore. Plus most of his pitchers seem to be in the 85 to 90 range, making it a little easier to pick a pitch and kill it without having to really worry if it is actually a fastball or a mediocre slider. As for the Cubs, they gave up some real talent, both now and in the past. Bobby Hill was a key part of the Pitt trade, and he was right up there with Patterson on their prospect charts when they traded him, and they gave us a 1st round pick in Garland for Matt Karchner for some strange reason. This time they gave up Beltran, a 24 year old reliever with electric stuff that has already pitched in the majors for a solid stretch, and Harris, a 23 year old that was hitting .308 in AAA. I don't know much about Jones, but he is also supposed to be a solid prospect. All that for a terrible defensive SS that hits .267 away from Fenway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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