Sox Fire Mark Parent

[caulfield12]

Here's the thing.

 

We keep comparing Ventura to LaRussa or Leyland or Torre or Cox or Francona. Isn't that making an even more dubious decision to automatically assume Ventura becomes one of the best managers in the history of the game if he joins an organization with better talent at the MLB and minor league levels?

 

I'm sure if you asked the GM's of the second teams to hire those guys, they could have identified 5-10 positive qualities that made them quite confident in their decisions to give those managers second and third chances.

 

So what teams out there would possibly want to hire Ventura, especially without Cooper as the pitching coach coming along with him?

 

Nobody is articulating any or all of Ventura's qualities, they're just citing historical examples that may or may not apply but obscure the crux of the argument.

Edited October 11, 2015 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Here's the thing.

 

We keep comparing Ventura to LaRussa or Leyland or Torre or Cox or Francona. Isn't that making an even more dubious decision to automatically assume Ventura becomes one of the best managers in the history of the game if he joins an organization with better talent at the MLB and minor league levels?

 

I'm sure if you asked the GM's of the second teams to hire those guys, they could have identified 5-10 positive qualities that made them quite confident in their decisions to give those managers second and third chances.

 

So what teams out there would possibly want to hire Ventura, especially without Cooper as the pitching coach coming along with him?

 

Nobody is articulating any or all of Ventura's qualities, they're just citing historical examples that may or may not apply but obscure the crux of the argument.

 

 

lol, wut?

 

Not even Joe McCarthy would win with Dunn/LaRoche, Keppinger, Bonifacio, Leury Garcia, Saladino, Sanchez, Flowers, Thompson, Olt, Gordon Beckham, Avi Garcia, Dayan Viciedo and Micah Johnson.

[caulfield12]

[/b]

 

 

lol, wut?

 

Can Ventura actually manage? I will ask again. Can Ventura actually manage after four years of OJT? It's certainly not a question that we know less about the answer than Opening Day, 2012.

 

 

LaRussa fired by White Sox despite winning AL West in 1983...yet he didn't last two full seasons after that, whereas Ventura has gotten three plus now.

 

Joe Torre with the Braves and Cards before the Yankees.

 

Jim Leyland with the Rockies.

 

Piniella and Baker couldn't win with the Cubs. Etc.

 

 

All we keep hearing is that it's only about the players, and that Robin Ventura would likewise be on the same Hall of Fame track had he been given the Cardinals' job instead of Matheny, or Don Mattingly's Dodgers team.

 

We did, after all, have a team that was expected to compete (and promoted as such) that had almost 100% health all year long. What are the odds of that repeating itself?

 

Once again, there are no arguments actually FOR Robin Ventura, just intimations that he will be the next Tony LaRussa or Joe Torre if we fire him...well, just because.

Edited October 11, 2015 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Can Ventura actually manage? I will ask again. Can Ventura actually manage after four years of OJT? It's certainly not a question that we know less about the answer than Opening Day, 2012.

 

 

LaRussa fired by White Sox despite winning AL West in 1983...yet he didn't last two full seasons after that, whereas Ventura has gotten three plus now.

 

Joe Torre with the Braves and Cards before the Yankees.

 

Jim Leyland with the Rockies.

 

Piniella and Baker couldn't win with the Cubs. Etc.

 

 

All we keep hearing is that it's only about the players, and that Robin Ventura would likewise be on the same Hall of Fame track had he been given the Cardinals' job instead of Matheny, or Don Mattingly's Dodgers team.

 

We did, after all, have a team that was expected to compete (and promoted as such) that had almost 100% health all year long. What are the odds of that repeating itself?

 

Once again, there are no arguments actually FOR Robin Ventura, just intimations that he will be the next Tony LaRussa or Joe Torre if we fire him...well, just because.

 

 

they're just citing historical examples that may or may not apply but obscure the crux of the argument.

[Texsox]

I am perfectly ambivalent whether he stays or goes. He has taken me to a place of I don't care. He's like a clean white wall. You know it could be better, but it isn't a moldy, dirty mess, either. He's like a bowl of vanilla ice cream, you want to add something, but nothing is sounding right. I'm bored but don't want to move. Meh, keep him around.

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Any rumblings on who the bench coach might be?

[caulfield12]

Probably Joe Maddon's Sunday breakfast caterer.

 

Actually, it's a no-win situation for the White Sox. Name someone who is a threat to be named full-time manager, they're undermining Ventura or not showing enough confidence in him. Of course, maybe imposing a sense of "immediacy" will actually be helpful in this organization.

 

On the other hand, a no-name guy immediate makes everyone think he's meant to be more of a "buddy" (Cora to Ozzie) and that the White Sox are basically content with their managerial situation and simply naming a Spanish-speaking candidate as a form of outreach to the Sox Latino players, as this was apparently an issue in the past couple of seasons (communication).

 

Anyone taking the job has to know that if the White Sox get off to yet another terrible start, the job will probably be theirs for the taking.

[nitetrain8601]

Any rumblings on who the bench coach might be?

 

I've heard Sandy Alomar Jr will be brought in if granted permission by the Indians.

[The Ginger Kid]

I know this thread is dead but I wanted to add that Mark Parent is the only Sox coach I've seen get pissed off at a player on the practice field, and I've seen it more than once in Glendale. He's a fiery guy and I even saw him lose his temper in the dugout when the Sox made some errors or other boneheaded mistakes. Does that make him a good coach or manager? No. But you at least knew this guy didn't like what he saw and let you know it.

[Southwest Sider]

Rick Hahn quote from WLS White Sox Weekly podcast:

 

"Parents a good baseball man and its unfortunate that we did feel we had to make a change in large part because of the performance and some of the elements inside the clubhouse.. which ultimately he bore responsibility for."

[Kyyle23]

Rick Hahn quote from WLS White Sox Weekly podcast:

 

"Parents a good baseball man and its unfortunate that we did feel we had to make a change in large part because of the performance and some of the elements inside the clubhouse.. which ultimately he bore responsibility for."

 

Nice backhanded compliment

[Dunt]

Rick Hahn quote from WLS White Sox Weekly podcast:

 

"Parents a good baseball man and its unfortunate that we did feel we had to make a change in large part because of the performance and some of the elements inside the clubhouse.. which ultimately he bore responsibility for."

 

Man, and Ventura gets a free pass. This FO truly is retarded.

[flavum]

Man, and Ventura gets a free pass. This FO truly is retarded.

 

I choose to believe it goes right to the top with Reinsdorf. I think Hahn would have cleaned house if he could have.

[Dick Allen]

I choose to believe it goes right to the top with Reinsdorf. I think Hahn would have cleaned house if he could have.

What do you base this on?

 

I think Rick Hahn is a smart guy, but if he took a job to be a puppet for KW and JR, that would make him not so smart. I don't understand how so many conclude Hahn wants to always do the right thing but is constantly overruled. That type of thinking is very naïve and Greensox would correctly classify it as hero worshipping.

 

 

There is no doubt in my mind Parent's contract expiration made him the fall guy.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Soxfest]

Rick Hahn quote from WLS White Sox Weekly podcast:

 

"Parents a good baseball man and its unfortunate that we did feel we had to make a change in large part because of the performance and some of the elements inside the clubhouse.. which ultimately he bore responsibility for."

Hahn impresses me less and less every time he speaks.

[Southwest Sider]

Man, and Ventura gets a free pass. This FO truly is retarded.

 

I might suggest you re-read the quote. Hahn flat out says that Parent was responsible for any clubhouse issues. Ventura had no involvement in this and for me, it kind of confirms what Lip Man's source was telling him.

[flavum]

What do you base this on?

 

I think Rick Hahn is a smart guy, but if he took a job to be a puppet for KW and JR, that would make him not so smart. I don't understand how so many conclude Hahn wants to always do the right thing but is constantly overruled. That type of thinking is very naïve and Greensox would correctly classify it as hero worshipping.

 

 

There is no doubt in my mind Parent's contract expiration made him the fall guy.

 

Parent got let go because his contract was up, but I believe Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay for two managers and sets of coaches. We'll see how much changes in June if the Sox are out of it.

 

Like I said, I choose to believe Hahn would have made more coaching staff changes if he had the choice. Complete speculation on my part because I think he's smart. Not hero worship. Far from it. Just think his hands are tied. I'm sure you disagree, so say more horses***...

[LittleHurt05]

What do you base this on?

 

I think Rick Hahn is a smart guy, but if he took a job to be a puppet for KW and JR, that would make him not so smart. I don't understand how so many conclude Hahn wants to always do the right thing but is constantly overruled. That type of thinking is very naïve and Greensox would correctly classify it as hero worshipping.

 

 

There is no doubt in my mind Parent's contract expiration made him the fall guy.

 

 

I used to think that too, but given how few GM jobs there are, I don't think it's that simple. It's not like he can pick and choose any other GM job wants, he'd be lucky to end up in the right opening at the right time. Here he has the perfect connection to get the job, so even if it's not ideal power structure, it's better than possibly starting from the bottom somewhere else.

[Dick Allen]

I used to think that too, but given how few GM jobs there are, I don't think it's that simple. It's not like he can pick and choose any other GM job wants, he'd be lucky to end up in the right opening at the right time. Here he has the perfect connection to get the job, so even if it's not ideal power structure, it's better than possibly starting from the bottom somewhere else.

It doesn't matter. What many claim his job is would not be considered a GM job. If he has no say or very little say, how can he call himself a GM?

 

Maybe there were some things he disagreed with KW on, and maybe KW won, and maybe those things blew up in their faces, but not all the White Sox bad choices are KW's, and not all the White Sox good choices are RH's. I am sure if we knew exactly how every move since Rick became GM went down, this fantasy that he has all the answers but has to bow down to idiots would come to an end.

 

Even on here last winter, Hahn was a genius. He filled so many holes. No need for a long rebuild. Then it didn't work out, and suddenly it was all KW's doing. I guess that isn't a bad thing. A guy with no track record can do no wrong. A group of people who constantly complain about loyalty thinks the guy who has never worked for any organization except the White Sox would be a perfect GM if really given the opportunity to be a GM. It flies in the face of all the loyalty complaining.

 

If KW is still making all the calls like some believe, there is nothing anywhere to suggest Rick Hahn knows what he is doing.

[southsider2k5]

I used to think that too, but given how few GM jobs there are, I don't think it's that simple. It's not like he can pick and choose any other GM job wants, he'd be lucky to end up in the right opening at the right time. Here he has the perfect connection to get the job, so even if it's not ideal power structure, it's better than possibly starting from the bottom somewhere else.

 

Considering he had a chance at interviews at something like half a dozen different teams, and withdrew or denied all but one, I don't buy that. If teams hadn't been looking to hire him, I'd feel differently. Many franchises tried to convince him to leave.

[Dunt]

I might suggest you re-read the quote. Hahn flat out says that Parent was responsible for any clubhouse issues. Ventura had no involvement in this and for me, it kind of confirms what Lip Man's source was telling him.

 

No it doesnt. He says he bears responsibility for performance and some of the clubhouse issues. How is he responsible and Ventura isnt? In defending Ventura, Hahn said he, KW, and the players were responsible for the bad performance, not Robin. hate to say it, but Im losing my trust in Hahn at this point as well.

[Dick Allen]

Parent got let go because his contract was up, but I believe Reinsdorf doesn't want to pay for two managers and sets of coaches. We'll see how much changes in June if the Sox are out of it.

 

Like I said, I choose to believe Hahn would have made more coaching staff changes if he had the choice. Complete speculation on my part because I think he's smart. Not hero worship. Far from it. Just think his hands are tied. I'm sure you disagree, so say more horses***...

No, horses*** is what you throw out there. Rick would have cleaned house. That is based on nothing. Rick gave Robin an extension. But of course, you know for sure he really didn't want to, but was forced to. Failing to see how Rick Hahn bears anything but zero responsibility for a failed season is about as naïve as one can be.

 

Here is Rick taking the blame for signing Jeff Keppinger, and praising JR for eating the contract. If it really was JR or KW who thought Keppinger should be signed, pretty pathetic Rick would take the blame while praising JR for eating money.

 

 

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/white-...ger-future-mind

Edited October 14, 2015 by Dick Allen

[flavum]

No, horses*** is what you throw out there. Rick would have cleaned house. That is based on nothing. Rick gave Robin an extension. But of course, you know for sure he really didn't want to, but was forced to. Failing to see how Rick Hahn bears anything but zero responsibility for a failed season is about as naïve as one can be.

 

Here is Rick taking the blame for signing Jeff Keppinger, and praising JR for eating the contract. If it really was JR or KW who thought Keppinger should be signed, pretty pathetic Rick would take the blame while praising JR for eating money.

 

 

http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/white-...ger-future-mind

 

Quite frankly, I don't know what or who to believe in the Sox organization. What I'm saying is Hahn has to say things as part of his job to cover decisions that are made either by him or above him.

 

Bottom line, it's a bad organization right now with an owner that is no longer capable of making good baseball decisions or hiring people that are allowed to make good baseball decisions.

 

By the way, I'm done interacting with you since all you and that other guy do is pick at what other people say. So say what you want...you'll get the last word.

[Dick Allen]

Quite frankly, I don't know what or who to believe in the Sox organization. What I'm saying is Hahn has to say things as part of his job to cover decisions that are made either by him or above him.

 

Bottom line, it's a bad organization right now with an owner that is no longer capable of making good baseball decisions or hiring people that are allowed to make good baseball decisions.

 

By the way, I'm done interacting with you since all you and that other guy do is pick at what other people say. So say what you want...you'll get the last word.

 

It is funny you take your ball and run when you complain about picking at what someone says when you were the one who wrote what I wrote was horses***. LMAO. Rick Hahn does nothing wrong. Free Rick Hahn.

[LittleHurt05]

Considering he had a chance at interviews at something like half a dozen different teams, and withdrew or denied all but one, I don't buy that. If teams hadn't been looking to hire him, I'd feel differently. Many franchises tried to convince him to leave.

 

Having an interview is different than being handed a GM job on a silver platter. He's a Chicago native, been living here forever, he knows the owner is super loyal to a fault, so the job is his no questions asked. Why risk that to MAYBE get a job somewhere else? Even if that job wields more power, you gotta take the sure thing when offered to you. How many GM jobs even open up every year? That's why I don't question why he might take a job under KW & JR calling the shots.