greg775

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 08:06 PM) No change necessary. This was a good team that choked like a bunch of bush leaguers, and I hate them for it. The front office put plenty of talent on the field to win the division. Good post. Sox definitely had a lot of name players having career years. So that's scary in looking ahead.

QUOTE (hawksfan61 @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 11:59 AM) I am already tired of all the whining about injuries related to this "collapse". You think every team in baseball is not dealing with injuries to key players at this point in time? Dunn is what he is, a streaky all or nothing hitter who got cold when it matters just like every other veteran on this team the last couple of weeks. I don't want to hear about Konerko's wrist or hand or whatever other excuse we are going to come up with to explain away a horrible performance by a highly paid veteran player. Second half performance this year: Konerko: 255/324/426 Dunn: 202/306/442 Dunn in September: 210/319/419 Pathetic. The thing that drove me the most insane about this whole "collapse" was the total disappearance of solid fundamental baseball by everyone on the team. Stupid errors, throwing to the wrong base, bad base running, swinging in horrible counts, pop-ups with guys on third base and less than 2 outs......these are all things that we had come to expect under Ozzie and they are big reasons why we have 3 playoff appearances in 12 years. When the year started out we WERE playing smart fundamental baseball and playing good smart defense and it was FUN to watch. To see the team disintegrate in this manner is the most disappointing end to a season in a long long time. That is not to say that this team was super talented or anything, 2003 is still the greatest miss of the KW era, but this was a golden opportunity to make the playoffs, and when you make the playoffs anything can happen....etc. If nothing else it would have been nice buzz heading into the offseason and to kick off next year. Instead we get to talk about how the team played sub 400 baseball in the last month of the season in a division that was theirs for the taking. QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 12:25 PM) I'm pissed about the way the season has ended, but I was never comfortable with the lead the Sox had. I'm not surprised that they choked or collapsed or fell apart or however you want to describe it. There was about 5 minutes when they won that make-up game against the Tigers that I almost believed and then another 2 minutes when Dunn cranked two HRs to win the game against the Royals. But for the most part I've been fearing (and expecting) what has happened. What's most frustrating is that it seems like they gave up. I know they didn't, and I know a lot of the guys are hurting and tired. But watching this team the past two weeks has been depressing. There has been so much excitement throughout the year with Dunn, Rios, and Peavy recovering; and Quintana coming out of nowhere; and Sale being the starter we thought he could be. Then it all came crashing down. The Sox have been hanging in there partially due to the fact that the Tigers have been playing bad baseball off and on all season. And when it mattered, the Sox couldn't do it and the Tigers could. Tired and hurt or not, the Sox should have had a better showing at the end. There's no fight left, and now the season will end as most people predicted with the Tigers at the top. The Sox will finish with a better record than most analysts predicted, but to me that isn't enough. If they had been chasing the Tigers all season and failed to catch them at the end it would be easier to swallow. This just stinks. Man, those were two excellent posts. Wow. I loved 'em.

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 07:07 PM) That's excessive. He earned his way out of a job here, rightfully, but some of the anger being directed at him borders on absurdity. I must have missed the part where he ran over everyone's dogs. Don't worry, I'll be here to support Oz when the others bury him.

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 06:10 PM) We're fortunate that Detroit was such an underachieving team this year, it made for an exciting year of baseball for me. If they had performed as they should have, we would've been looking up at them all season and they would've cruised to a division win. Fortunately we didn't make any stupid trades because of this. I like Jim Leyland a lot as a baseball guy but I don't think he's a very good manager for this Tigers team. I hope they bring him back. I love the mentality of this Sox team and I hope that it's the same in the years to come. Nice post, but I don't really understand your last sentence. What about the mentality of this team did you like? This team had a September to remember, for all the wrong reasons. Losing to KC so much is mental as well IMO.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 03:52 PM) first you say they're casual fans who don't follow the team closely, then you say they had enough information to know we didn't have the makeup for a division winner. which one is it? If all our players performed at their potential we'd have run away with this division. they did just that for quite a long stretch of time this season. Frankly, I enjoyed this season. Why? because I expected us to be in 4th place all year and we WEREN'T! I expected us to suck and have no reason to watch, but we were in the THICK of it all year! Proving people wrong left and right. So yes, we've collapsed, and it sucks, but just because the last two weeks have been awful doesn't make the last 5 months of baseball a waste. It was a good time, and a successful first go-round for Robin. I'm happy. I don't know why so many smart fans like yourself thought the team would for sure suck. I had no real expectations either way. It was obvious we had enough "name" players that if things went well, the Sox would do well. I thought we'd finish 10 or more out, but that's because of Detroit. There was a chance with a ton of name players that the team could do OK, which it did.

QUOTE (flavum @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 06:07 PM) Just think...six months from today, Royals at White Sox. 0-1. Ugh. We have to open against KC?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 07:25 AM) we should be use to that by now. It's going to take me a long time to get over this collapse/choke. I can't imagine how worried Sox officials are that the loyal season ticket holders would probably rather throw money down the toilet than re-up their season tickets after this disastrous finish. The Sox showed no fight, no nothing. It was just horrific baseball day after day.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 08:05 AM) Adam Dunn hit probably the biggest home run of the season at the time he hit it. He's also hurt right now with a side problem. I wouldn't call him a choker. Dunn had a good year. He had so many key home runs during the period when we were a good team. His BA did suck this season again, but he was damn good when the team was good, not this pathetic aberration-team of the past month.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 06:04 PM) MB is the only active pitcher in baseball with 12 consecutive years of at least 10 wins (13), 30 starts (31) and 200 innings (202 2/3). People don't want to hear it, but this was a bad year to have lost Mark. We'd have won the division if he was still on the team. That pure and simple sucks. A few dollars costs us a division.

Is Ozzie getting fired or not?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 06:07 AM) There was nothing on the farm to trade. People are fooled by this season into thinking the farm system is decent. When Viciedo was in the minors, no one knocked on the door for a trade. Brent Morel and Tyler Flowers are not an answer unless you somehow get Cabrera, Fielder, Hamilton, Pujols in your line up. I'd sell Dunn first. I'll take a chance on Rios having 2 solid years instead of a former NL who Ks too much to make an AL team better. We ought to trade some of these guys to the Cubs. Dunn would look good in Wrigley and Rios, too. Also Peavy should sign with them. Could we get any good Cub prospects for Dunn/Rios? It seems like the Cubs have had some decent prospects. Throw Beckham or Lexi in there if we have to to steal some of the Flubs' prospects??

QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 04:20 AM) Ignoring what I've already said about trying to get anyone to understand Ozzie's speech and the craziness that would be leaving Ozzie unfiltered for three hours at a time.... You have Hawk who we believe has too big an ego for Steve Stone, who also seems to have a rather large ego. So you replace Stone with....OZZIE GUILLEN? Ozzie has the biggest ego on the planet and it is costing him everything already He might humble Hawk a bit or they'd kill each other. Hawk wouldn't take to Ozzie's bluntness IMO. But I'd love it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 04:22 AM) Glass isn't the worst, but he's in the bottom 10. They've spent money, just not always wisely, on players like Gil Meche, Jose Guillen, Kendall, Francouer, etc. It's just that they needed "band aids" to hold down the fort and try to remain competitive until all the youngsters arrived. They do have a great core, if Myers and Hosmer are both the real deals. Escobar is very solid, Perez is going to be an All-Star, Gordon led the majors in doubles, it has always been the pitching staff. Cain needs to stay healthy. Imagine if they'd had a healthy Melky Cabrera instead of Sanchez? Combined with Guthrie? Then you have to look at all the pitching problems. Hochevar has never come close to realizing his potential, and they had 2-3 top prospects go down due to TJ surgery and wild ineffectiveness. If all of those pitching prospects fizzle out, like most of ours did in 1999-2002, then they've got a real problem. But I can't disagree with the approach. I know Gordon was trying to become the team's single season doubles leader. I don't know if he's gonna make it or not. KC sucks, though. Horrible franchise cause of Glass IMO.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 01:12 AM) None I don't care about him returning as manager yet. Broadcaster is a different story. If Stoney can't stand Hawk, then bring in Ozzie. It sure seems like Loria is mad at his statements and will axe him. I read the latest story where Oz said he doesn't deserve to be fired.

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 03:14 AM) This team has a long-term solution at exactly ONE position - #1 starter with Sale. And even there, his slight frame suggests that Sale may be subject to injury. We'll see if he holds up. Other than that, they have no better than average players under contract past 2014. Best hope is for Hawkins, Trayce Thompson, etc. to get to the big leagues in a HURRY and perform. Otherwise, spend money on free agency. And there are ZERO 3B man on the free agent market this winter. Starting pitching is a better market. But offense can't be had through free agency. I'd be surprised if the Sox contend before 2015. Makes sense. Who are Hawkins and Trayce Thompson? Are they locks to be excellent? Is Mitchell a lock to be a star?

The change in philosophy has to start with placing more value on divisional opponents. For whatever reason, the White Sox have a difficult time winning games against teams in their own division. As long as the Sox continue to suck in that regard, it's going to be difficult to win a division by more than a game or two. The total September collapse shows this team is basically a team with an upside of about five games over .500. The downside could be a team out of it by late May. 1B - Paulie. If he was injured, there's a chance he could return to the Paulie we know and love. If he was not injured, then obviously he's on the decline. 2B - Beckham. He is an average baseball player. I'd keep him because of his defense. SS - Lexi. He is an undisciplined baseball player, nothing special. At this point, he's expendable via trade. 3B - We have NONE. Scary. I would re-sign Youk somehow. LF - Viciedo. He is an average offensive player right now. Does he have upside? Yes. Should anybody be confident he'll ever be great? No. CF - DeAza. Very nice ballplayer. The injury bugs are a concern. Can he sustain a whole season? I'd say give him another shot. RF - Rios. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him. DH - Dunn. I'd trade him if anybody wants him. Get as much as you can for him. Pitchers Danks- Pray he is effective upon his return. Sale - Give him a standing ovation and let him pitch. Floyd - Very average pitcher who is nothing special. he's just another guy. Q - Verdict is out. Age is in his corner. Peavy - He's gone back to the NL I suppose. Omigrosso - He can't be in our starting rotation next year. Not ready. Thornton - Get rid of him. Jones - Has potential. I'd rework his pitching motion completely. Crain - Get rid of him. Reed - He is good. Veal - He is good, not as good yet as some on this board believe. The bullpen has potential to be acceptable next season if Jones changes his delivery and gets more consistent and Veal is a good lefty specialist. We need 2-3 relievers who can pitch a full inning in the true role of a setup guy. Thornton must go. Verdict: Team will be much worse next season without major overhaul. Sox got career years from Rios, AJ, Paulie the first half, Dunn and didn't win anything of note. GO SOX!! Make some moves.

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 12:13 AM) What's depressing is that there is so little to look forward to in 2013. The rotation will be Sale-Floyd-Danks QUESTION MARK - QUESTION MARK. And that's adding to the fact that Floyd and Danks are question marks in their own right. Sure, the team will be $24 million lighter with Peavy and Pierzynski leaving (although they really should re-sign AJ), but what evidence is there that the Sox will be spending this offseason? Not to mention the GAPING hole at 3B. Very true. I think ticket sales are going to be so low it will make our heads spin. That is why the Sox are going to have to make some blockbuster moves. I realize Dunn was a blockbuster move a couple offseasons ago, but losing Buehrle and not picking anybody up will not cut it this offseason. There will be PR hits when Peavy and AJP leave. The average fan doesn't care about contracts. They will just see we're losing Peavy and replacing him with one of our many inconsistent young arms. They will see we lost another face of the franchise in AJP and going with Flowers. The obvious thing would be to get as much as we can for Rios, maybe even Paulie as well. I still think teams will not want Rios. He makes too much money with too much risk involved. He was that bad a year ago. But in a perfect world, you trade Rios for 3 minor leaguers, one with a strong upside. You trade Paulie if you have to for 2 current big leaguers and a minor leaguer with upside. You have to sign some free agent pitchers. I don't have the list. But as the roster stands now, this team is going to have major problems drawing more than 20,000 a game next year except for opening day and the Cubs/Yankees/Bosox series. The Sox front office may not want to believe it, but the economy has become a factor. With this team not fully embraced by the fans and a team WAY WORSE on paper taking the field next year, the front office is going to have to actually sell this team to avoid horrific crowds. To do that best ... BLOCKBUSTER trades and acquisitions.

QUOTE (Joxer_Daly @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 11:57 PM) What is the reason for that general malaise in the White Box support? Maybe I'm picking up on it too much, but I see low attendance at the Cell being referenced a lot on here, and you seem to expand this further to cover fans online? You mention a number of reasons that would distract the more casual or bandwagon-jumping type of supporter, but why the apparent lack of interest this year, with so much to play for? Is the Sox core support reducing, just in a rut, or is this about what it's always been? I've heard from a lot of my casual-fan Sox friends and they said they didn't follow the team closely this year cause they knew this would happen. They knew on paper we didn't have as good a team as free-spending Detroit. A lot of fans won't pay attention unless we win going away. They knew we didn't have the makeup for a division winner.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 11:46 PM) Just looking at the stats, Rays have went 9-1 and probably will not see the post season. A surreal team era will not overcome the worst D in baseball. That's cause the Rays are in an amazing division. The only way we can make the playoffs now and in the future is to win our division, cause we are not near wild card contention status in the future. Sox aren't in the same class as the perennial wild card contenders. We can beat them head to head many times, but in a full season, we don't stand a chance at compiing a record good enough for wild card contention. We better hope Detroit remains an underachieving team. Looks like KC doesn't have it with the worst owner in sports history. Cleveland is way too cheap as well as Minnie. The Royals can get their jollies off by beating our ass every year, but not contend. I still can't believe we stopped contending after '05. I thought we had learned how to beat the teams in our division. Detroit looks like it should be able to win this division every year. They have more money to spend than anybody and they have the best players/pitchers Sox are in a good position to tear it up now completely cause after this collapse I don't think many fans will be against a "total rebuild."

I'll leave you all to enjoy the rest of the game. I got to go. Thanks for letting me vent. p.s. I can't believe how bad the Chiefs are at Arrowhead.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 07:28 PM) It should be Nate Jones in the 5th. I hate the recent trend of going with relievers early. QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 07:28 PM) And minimal damage done by the offense with the bases loaded. So frustrating. Never a huge hit. Very minimal damage, especially in a pseudo pennant race. Two runs is a ton for this team, but what about a crooked number? No such clutch hit.

The Sox dugout is alive! See AJ trying to take second if he could? I don't think he's tanking it. He's always thinking and trying.

QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 07:22 PM) I don't know how exactly he fits into our future plans, but I really like Youk. Glad to see him finishing fairly strong amidst the mess that is the rest of our offense He's definitely a likeable player. QUOTE (JoshPR @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 07:24 PM) I swear AJ is tanking it... I don't see what you are seeing there. He looked out at the mound when he was fouling the ball off. It's not easy to hit Price when u are a lefty.

QUOTE (Baron @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 07:20 PM) There is a better chance we sign Zack Greinke than trading for Mark. Zach would definitely excite the masses. They could sell some tickets with that acquistion, billing the 1-2 punch of Sale and Zach. p.s. Our fans are awesome. They are LOUD.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 30, 2012 -> 07:17 PM) Why did the Marlins pitching suck this year then? I dunno. Do they have the kind of stuff our starters show? I mean Q has looked nasty today, yet 3 runs in four innings? There's something very wrong with that.