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QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:03 PM) There are plenty of things to do to get more people to Sox games. (1) Special online promotions: On , anybody who buys at least 4 tickets to a Sox game for the next homestand will receive a $5 discount on a prepaid parking pass. On , anybody who buys at least 4 tickets to a Sox game for the next homestand will receive two Buy-One-Get-One Free coupons good for any food item at a concession stand. (2) Mobile Ticket Van: On the new Sox Mobile Ticket Van (and two lovely Chevy Pride Crew Girls) will be at and anybody who buys at least 4 tickets to a Sox game for the next homestand will receive 10% off the face value ticket price (plus no Ticketmaster charges!) (3) Radio Affiliate Head-to-Head Battles: On , Sox radio affiliates in and will be selling tickets to the Sox home game on at special discounted group rates. As an added bonus, the city that sells the most tickets will receive a free hot dog at the game. Another thing that will help is to be able to have more night games on Saturday. If JR has any pull at all in negotiating the next FOX contract, he needs to push for fewer night games for FOX, because night games on FOX force the Sox to play day games. I haven't looked, but I'd guess that attendance for Saturday day games lags well behind Saturday night games. Nice suggestions! Are the Sox ticket people listening?

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:07 PM) More accurately, we gained a bunch of fans, and then lost them, under his watch. The Sox desperately needed to complete the deal this year to generate that playoff buzz and excitement that only the postseason can bring. A division title would have meant a real playoff series, not the one game wildcard bulls***. Jerry should be furious because that playoff buzz would have really helped this franchise regain credibility.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:08 PM) Horrific contracts, no. Rios is an unknown. Will he be 2012 Alex next year or will he be more like 2011? My guess is somewhere in between but closer to his 2012 numbers. So, I don't think he's grossly overpaid. Dunn...boy, I just don't know. His 41 HRs and 90+ RBIs are worth a lot, especially considering how many of those HRs came at times when they were needed. If his BA was 20 points higher (closer to his career average), his contract is fine. I think we'll see a slight improvement next year in his BA, and his power numbers will likely be steady or drop a bit. So, maybe a slight overpay. Who knows with Danks. If he returns and pitches like the John Danks we've seen before then I'm perfectly fine with his deal. If he remains injury-plagued, then it's a bad contract. Rios and Ramirez might be tradeable, but unless the Sox are rebuilding (doubtful) the Sox would need to get a nice return for either one. I don't believe anyone would come seriously knocking for Dunn. And even if some team did inquire, the Sox's demands for him would be too high. I expect all three to be part of the 2013 White Sox. Well, if Dunn and Rios are staying and Paulie is staying, the Sox might as well sign AJ and go with the core group again and do a little bit of tinkering to try and overcome the Tigers. Cause those contracts will prevent the Sox from getting real creative.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 06:56 PM) So how is the answer to "worst collapse in franchise history" not "1967"? I'm not sure what the point of your reply to me is. I agree with you that 67 was worse. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:01 PM) If the publicity doesn't generate sales at the turnstiles, what good is it? My point was Ozzie generated the buzz and should still be around to keep generating, but that the team of the past two years has jumped the shark. Fans have been there/done that. They don't want the product. That's why DeAza for a while was kind of a breath of fresh air. He looked like somebody we haven't seen in a while. We need somebody like Salvador Perez, somebody to shake the fans up a bit. Ozzie couldn't overcome the fact this team has bored our fans.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:52 PM) As far as the topic at hand goes, '67 was worse. Thing is, '67 was considered a failure throughout history and this one is being shrugged off with the Sox still being applauded since "nobody expected them to be in contention and to lose 90 games."

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:41 PM) Some things can be deemed as opinions. In this case there is a provable statistic that can confirm or deny your theory that Ozzie got people to the ballpark. Attendance clearly shows the theory that Ozzie brought people to the ballpark is 100% wrong. The manager doesn't matter. But please answer my point about the free publicity and making the Sox a big deal. Ozzie did all that, did he not? As far as attendance related to Ozzie, I think more than him ... the fans for whatever reason are tired of seeing this core group play baseball. Probably because of the station to station thing and the lousy bullpen work. Our games are very very predictable because of the way we play the game with these veteran ballplayers who are very slow. The home run is very exciting, but there's something annoying about the all or nothing aspect of the White Sox lineup. And once our managers start mixing and matching relievers, Ozzie or Robin, bad things are going to happen. People are just tired of this team.

QUOTE (Tuna @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 04:41 PM) I know exactly where that's at and it's horrible. In the article one of the subjects referenced his "OG" and the author incorrectly put (original gangster) as its meaning. That is incorrect, he's actually referring to his mother using that term and I think it speaks volumes. He's saying his mom has always given him everything he needed yet made the decision to join a gang anyway. I'm a reformed gang member and I can tell you first hand that it's a different way of life. Shootings that the general public are horrified over are nothing more than jokes at parties for these guys. They don't aim for innocent people, but don't give it much thought if they happen to get hit. It's a very selfish and lazy lifestyle. Tuna. Could you write about what gang life is like? I find it very interesting topic. 1.) Are a lot of the decisions to beat/rob people made spur of the moment? You see a pizza guy. You rob him at gunpoint? 2.) I don't know your ethniciity. What are gangs policies of race in neighborhoods. If you are black, would you immediately jump/stab a white guy? If you are white, would you immediately stab/jump a black? 3.) When gang members shoot a kid do rival gangs seek justice immediately? 4.) What parts of Chicago are the worst? 5.) Do gang members do a lot of drugs or are they mostly into killing? 6.) Do gang members torture people? Do you see that as being the next big thing with gangs? Horrific crimes instead of random bullets? Thanks. Was your life in jeopardy when you left the gang?

QUOTE (La Marr Hoyt HOF @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 06:28 PM) I'm sorry, but who cares if nobody cares about the Sox? Secretly, aren't we all a little more proud to be loyal fans of the second team in the second city?? Forget the mainstream.................. Has been this way since the 30s and will always be. At the end of the day, we know that the Cubs origin was as the Chicago White Stockings anyway. Like the Old Style slogan: "It's our great team and you can't have it" I've definitely enjoyed all the quick banter with people I just met throughout the years. The conversation. ... Where you from?: Chicago. Are you a Cubs fan?: Nope. White Sox. What? Really? That has been fun, not being a bandwagon Cub fan. Although like I said before I went to a ton of Cub games as a kid because my grandfather was a Cub fan and he needed somebody to go with him. A lot of times we'd have to sit apart in the upper tank as I guess he bought singles tickets at the park. I don't think he ever bought the tickets in advance.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) Ozzie was one of the biggest factors in the "irrelevant" White Sox. If he is such an important part of getting people to the ball park, why did attendance fall the last five years he was here? With Ozzie here we lost close to a million fans a season, from the 2005 number. Ozzie was so colorful in his comments the Sox were in the news daily. The columnists even in Chicago (Mariotti) couldn't help but notice. There was White Sox in the air every day locally and nationally. Now ... the Sox got what they want in a manager who utters all the cliches, which is fine. How can you not like Robin? But with Ozzie, all that was free publicity. The Sox were important. Now? They better add somebody to excite the masses, cause this team is close to 1970s type crowds on the South Side, Bill Melton-era type crowds. This is just my opinion; I'm not trying to enrage.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 07:15 PM) Define bad contract? My definition of a bad contract is that you could go out and sign a free agent who could perform just as well for less money. Konerko is owed $13.5M for one year (with the money spread out). You might be able to get a 1B with an .853 OPS for less than that, but not much less. Rios is owed $25M for two years. You certainly aren't getting a corner OF with an .850 OPS for that. Even if you assume Rios regresses to an .800 OPS, $25M is still at or below market value for two years. Dunn is owed $30M for two years. Probably overpaid if he can't get his OPS over .800, but you can't replace 41 home runs from the DH spot very cheaply. Danks is owed $42.75M for three years. Definitely below market value if he recovers from injury and becomes the old John Danks. Ramirez is owed $26.5M for three years. Probably the worst contract the Sox have. That's a lot to pay for a .651 OPS no matter how good the defense is. Thornton and Crain have $5.5M and $4.5M for one year each. Probably overpaying a bit for relievers that don't close, but only one year left on those contracts. So there is only one contract that I would call really bad at this point. As for the young talent part, there is quite a bit in the system but none that will be able to contribute in 2013. It may be a challenge to compete in 2013 but things start looking up a lot soon after that. Rios, Dunn, Danks are horrific contracts IMO. Lexi's is bad, too because he has not taken the next step and won't. Thornton is just another arm and isn't worth that kind of loot IMO. I don't think he's tradeable either. Nobody's going to take him for that kind of money.

QUOTE (champs2005 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 05:26 PM) I have a couple thoughts on why dont more fans go to games: I think there is a clear distinction between a fan who goes to a game and a fan who only watches the games on tv. My sense is that the Sox have a ton more fans than many other clubs who only watch on TV. Given that our TV ratings are decent, there are people sitting at home who are Sox fans who dont go to the games. I bet most are south suburbanites who never venture far beyond Orland for anything. Sox park is in the middle of the white flight place their parents or grandparents left. It has been ingrained in them that they "escaped" this area. Why expect them to come back? The idea of going to a Sox game is just off their radar or they may go one Sunday a year. Too far, too scary I dont know exactly why. And frankly I dont care. If I were the Sox I'd stop chasing these couch potato suburbanites to come to games. Watch TV, fine. But the Sox should concentrate their ticket-buying marketing on people who already go to games and try to get them to go more. To heck with the lazy people who never go, you will never convince them to change their ways. That is a great point. Your last paragraph is golden.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 12:42 AM) He's old and injured. Next topic. He's not that old. At least he doesn't lie about his age like some big leaguers do. Not putting words in your mouth, but there's something about Paulie that makes people get on him whereas other players like Rios seem to get a free pass when they stink (last year). I've never understood what makes some players likeable and some not.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 11:25 PM) Scherzer verlander-2 run loss Diamond Mendoza- 2 run loss Guthrie- 1 run loss Fister- 2 run loss Scherzer-2 run loss Chen Guthrie- 1 run loss E Santana Haren- 2 run loss CY Weaver Kluber- 1 run loss Masterson- 2 run loss Shields- 1 run loss Moore Price Thats the SPs they lost to the final month of the season....Not exactly a bunch of nobodies that shut us down. The problem is nobody else had problems beating those Detroit pitchers before we let them off the hook. Detroit was losing to everybody not named Chicago for a long stretch and those KC pitchers are horrible. If you stretch it back a bit, we got shut down by a lot of other clown pitchers this season.

QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 03:13 PM) Players and managers come and go. Stop worrying about the name on the back of the shirt and start worrying about the name on the front of the shirt. My guess is that you are going to be mad at the Marlins shortly as well. I should prolly explain. I meant I was mad at the Sox for their collapse, not firing Ozzie.

QUOTE (flippedoutpunk @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 04:19 PM) I think youre not only the best baseball mind on this site, but also a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks. Either you are kidding or I have a fan. QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Oct 1, 2012 -> 08:48 PM) I would imagine many of the quiet non-posters don't have much to say in respect to Greg (I'll keep it third person for you). As far as I'm concerned, I don't think you're an idiot. For some reason, you seem to be more loyal to Ozzie than to the White Sox. For the most part, I think your arguments are fine. And I admire how you can take such a beating from so many people and keep posting. Thanks. I am loyal to Ozzie; I'm currently mad at the White Sox. QUOTE (Joxer_Daly @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 03:46 PM) Speaking for myself, I don't post too much as I'm very new to the world of baseball so can't offer a whole lot more beyond the standard drivel-type postings of the "Go Sox" and "Get stuck into this mob" variety. I do like to follow the threads and the opinions of various posters (third person or otherwise) and would add my tuppence worth more if I had a better appreciation of the game and felt I could make a worthwile contribution to a thread or fully blazing argument!! I like your avatar logo. You should post more. None of us truly know anything which is what it boils down to, or we think we know more than we do might be a better way of putting it. Except fathom. He knows it all. Kidding, kidding, kidding.

QUOTE (The Gooch @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 04:14 AM) We are obviously better off without Buehrle's usual 200+ innings and below 4 era. Ah somebody who agrees with me finally! I'll take it.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 03:29 AM) Because as Chicago sports fans we're used to collapses due to injury....Maybe because you're out in KC and didnt already experience the collapse of the Bears the last 2 years due to injuries or the Bulls last year because of the Rose/Noah injuries. Welcome to Chicago sports That's possible. The Rose thing had to be a crusher. Certainly the Bulls would have advanced at least as far as the Celts did with a healthy Rose. Maybe they would have kept LeBron ring-less.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Oct 3, 2012 -> 03:22 AM) I agree with the first part of your post...But to continue the injury thing that I've been beating all to hell these past few days...1. He's got an oblique injury, you cant get the same body torque if thats bothering you. and 2. PKs collapse due to the injury gave Dunn virtually no protection. When you have a healthy PK hitting behind you you're gonna get a lot more pitches to hit. I can understand the Thornton hate, though I think its overblown but why the Crain hate??? A 2.44 ERA with a 1.08 WHIP isn't good enough for you? Would you agree Dunn deserves a B? Or would you go with an A? I just don't like Crain much. I really dislike Myers, though. I guess I could stomach Crain another year, but not Myers. And I still say Nate has to revamp his pitching rotation. What's with the Keith Foulke motion???

I can't believe so many people on this board are OK with ... a.) the Sox collapse. b.) the Sox becoming totally irrelevant in Chicago and around the country. You guys got your wish. Big bad Ozzie is gone. And with him is any interest in our team outside of our 15,000 diehard fans which includes all of us on this board. That's it. We're like the Blackhawks, a very very very limited fanbase. And nationally we are now totally irrelevant without Ozzie making headlines. Robin is fine. He says nothing of interest. At first I thought he might revolutionize managing, I thought he might be that special. It seemed like he really had a feel for the game. But as it turned out, his team "quit" on him every bit as much as they "quit" on Ozzie. But you are all happy because at least Robin didn't "quit" like Ozzie allegedly did which is the biggest misnomer in this board's history. Forgive me for being so mad at the team's collapse. I know the Sox were beat up, but so were a lot of other teams. Cabrera was hurt and we didn't even try to bunt at him.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 11:50 PM) It's all phony to me. That 2-homer game last week was the only time I can think of him playing like a superstar for us. It's not just the Ks. It's the fact that he's not a feared hitter. Sure he can bat fifth or lower next year, but c'mon, we need a legit #3 hitter. Most of our problems go away if we add that one guy. I'm not a Dunn fan, but to be fair, he hit some very important homers this year. Without him, the Sox wouldn't have been in the "race" at all. I'd prefer him on another team, but he hit some major home runs and a few of them were with men on base. Despite that horrendous batting average, I'd give him a very very solid B for his performance this season. I am thinking except for that two homer game he reeked in September, but I don't have the numbers in front of me. p.s. I really hope Thornton and Crain have pitched their last games for the Sox. Bring in a new crew of relievers please.

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 08:04 PM) It's amazing to me how much more angry you are at a team that competed and ran out of gas in 2012 as opposed to a manager and team that flat out quit in 2011. QUOTE (MEANS @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 08:24 PM) THIS! think about that sentence Greg....think real hard and long. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 08:26 PM) [round of applause] You guys are very very smart baseball fans. Please answer this question for me: Do you agree that very early on, when Dunn and Rios showed they were not going to be crap and Peavy showed he was going to be the old Peavy, we could bury all the gloom and doom predictions of the preseason publications? Because of Peavy/Rios/Dunn, the Sox indeed were good enough to contend, good enough as the All-In team of the year before. Basically what we had was the same team as Ozzie's last team, hence the expectations in my mind became the same for both teams. Because of that fact, I became enraged that the team dropped 8 of 9 at the worst possible time. Had Oz been here engineering this year's choke job, many of you would certainly be as mad as I am right now. Why am I madder now than Ozzie's last year? I think I was so mad at Rios and Dunn that year, that they took the brunt of most of my anger. All my anger was directed at Dunn/Rios. This year it went to the entire team for what I felt was a collosal choke job.

QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 07:42 PM) Look who we faced and put up those runs against, a guy with a 5 something ERA that we saw for the 2nd time and a couple garbage relievers. Before that we faced TB who has a team ERA less than 3 in the 2nd half. Kluber who we saw for the first time( I believe), and Masterson, their best pitcher. Before that we faced E. Santana, D Haren, and Cy Weaver all of which have been good in the 2nd half. Then Chen and Guthrie who forever reason own us. We faced some good pitching down the stretch and with a team dealing with injuries like the sox were it not a recipe for success. Yeah, but the Sox got shut down numerous times by a plethora of no names/lousy pitchers as well. QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 08:18 PM) And in completely unshocking, no one saw this coming news: Paul Konerko is having wrist surgery on Thursday His injury turned him into a singles hitter when he got a hit at all. It will be nice having the real Paulie back next year. It was a sad sight watching him bat the second half. QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 08:57 PM) Kansas City shut the White Sox down almost every game they played and the Kansas City rotation sucked. It's almost impossible to be as bad as the Sox hitters were vs. KC's stable of lousy pitchers. Even Hochevar had success vs. the Sox. If we lose to them on Opening Day next year my head may explode.

There's no way in hell the team deserves an A of any kind in my opinion. The last month counts in any grading scale. Because of the last month being a total embarrassment I reluctantly give the Sox a B. But the B would be on the lower numerical end of the B scale. No A- here. I'd give the team a grade of B which I'm sure will please all the players. After watching their interviews they are all pretty satisfied with the season since everybody expected them to suck.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 2, 2012 -> 03:34 PM) I see some other posters already showed you, but yeah, that was a common prediction. Vegas line in the spring wasn't quite that bad, predicted something like 74 wins (vs 88 losses). Point is, the HUGE majority of publications and line-makers were predicting a losing season and a bottom-tier finish in the division. I'm surprised the Sox weren't more loose since everybody thought they were going to suck this season. Give me a break, everybody. The Sox had a lot of veterans and it was obvious early on it was one of those years where the team was a contender. Just the bouncing back of Rios and Dunn erased all those negative predictions. It was obvious the team would be better cause of those two alone. Once they proved EARLY ON that they were not black holes those predictions didn't mean squat. Since we now have a very likeable manager and don't want to blame him, and we have a guru as pitching coach and don't want to blame him and we have a GM who remains godlike we don't want to blame him ... we accept it. Well all these guys need to examine what happened again this season and FIX IT in the future. Cause the Sox turned into dogcrap for whatever reason. The team flat out choked at the plate the last few weeks proven again last night. WHen it didn't matter the team bashed Cleveland. If that game had been played a week ago, we lose to Cleveland as we did at home. The team has some huge mental problems. But as expected, everybody is giving them a nice participation trophy and pat on the back for a job well done despite injuries and all those excuses. The last 2-3 weeks were an utter embarassment to Sox fans and very painful IMO.

I'd personally try to trade him. He seems to need a change of scenery. If you can't get squat for him, keep him and be happy with his defense.