Chisoxfn

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 01:08 PM) Actually the whole declining speed on his fastball and declining k rate comes from soxtalk posters as well. It's a valid concern. I would have figured Jenks would have shut everyone up in the post-season/very end of the regular season when his velocity was up a couple mph. He always talks about how he still has it and all of us kind of doubted it but I quickly shut my mouth after seeing him throw gas in the post-season (albeit I'd have liked to see more of him in the playoffs).

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 10:48 AM) Agreed, but I don't think there's any substance to all this stuff anymore. I have to believe Pelfrey is the exact type of player Kenny would want and if Pelfrey was really on the table, and discussions really were heated, Kenny would have completed this somehow before Levineline even mentioned it. I really don't see Kenny haggling over some comparatively small detail like Murphy or Heilman. If Pelfrey is out there, and you're getting Martinez too, just go ahead and do it. IMO Pelfrey going forward is the best player in the deal. Also, I really have to question where Bruce Levineline gets his information. Even the fans on the boards here pretty much figured the guy to be unavailable. Maybe Pelfrey was an early counteroffer from Kenny, but I don't think "heated discussions" happen around that guy unless the Mets are either really stupid or pessimistic about him or the Sox are giving up a package that is greater than Javy and Jenks. Kunz and Parnell have been mentioned, and maybe the real discussions are centered around Javy + Jenks for Martinez, Murphy, Kunz/Parnell, and Heilman. That's a considerably weaker package though, and I would definitely shop around if a package like that was what was really being offered. I know first hand that the Sox are very high on Pelfrey. They have tried to acquire him in the past and I wouldn't be shocked at all if they are trying to acquire him right now. He's already a league average starter, if not above average, and has all of the tools to be a #2 type of guy for a long time. Honestly, I could totally live with Pelfrey/Martinez because you are talking about two potential cornerstone players, one who is already producing at the big league level. I still believe to get fairer value a 3rd player is needed but you also have to look at how much value cash is worth now-a-days and the Sox would be saving significant cash.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 12:37 PM) He has good stuff and I think he'll be fine. He might have a Matt Thornton 2007 type year, but that doesn't mean he'll never be good again. He's not a guy like Cotts, whose entire arsenal was a hitch in his delivery that made him hard to pick up. Howell's stuff isn't even close to being on par with Thornton's. He has mediocre velocity on his fastball, although his hook is a plus pitch. I was a big fan of his back to his days at the University of Texas but I think scouts had it right when they identified him as the type of guy that wouldn't make it as a starter. He has a fit being a solid reliever, but I don't see him being anything like Thornton who is a dominant reliever at times and a potential closer.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 22, 2008 -> 10:24 AM) Dye for Iwamura and Howell? The only other piece that would fit woud be Upton, and I know Maddon had personality clashes with him, but I dont see that happening. If it does and the Mets deal happens, KW will get a lot of hype for his offseason moves, similar to Detroit last season. I'd cream my pants if we were able to acquire Upton for Dye. The reality is that Upton has way too much value based upon his pure tools, plus he had a ridiculous post-season run.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 01:45 PM) It seems most Mets phenom OFs don't become the stars they were supposed to be. In fact, Lastings Milledge is another potential comparison you could make.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 01:45 PM) I think you'll either see KW flip some of these guys for a player like Roberts, or he will sign a FA we didnt even think about. I just hope KW knows that you cant unload Dye, Jenks and Javy and expect reclamation projects to fuel this team. Orlando Hudson is another FA possibility, but it might take a bit of time because there is no way the Sox are going to give him the 5/50 he's asking for.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 01:35 PM) Okay if we can only give up Jenks and Vazquez for Martinez and Pelfrey, I would do that in a heartbeat. Martinez is a f***ing stud and Pelfrey has a bright future. I'd maybe want another piece, but why would the Mets do this? But...it's probably both guys for either Martinez or Pelfrey. I'm not sure- I still may consider that. On a sidenote, giving up just one of Pelfrey or Martinez for Jenks and Javy would be highway f***ing robbery by the Mets. Theyd' be robbing the Sox blindly.

QUOTE (whitesoxbrian @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 01:35 PM) Okay if we can only give up Jenks and Vazquez for Martinez and Pelfrey, I would do that in a heartbeat. Martinez is a f***ing stud and Pelfrey has a bright future. I'd maybe want another piece, but why would the Mets do this? But...it's probably both guys for either Martinez or Pelfrey. I'm not sure- I still may consider that. Martinez is similar to what Felix Pie was a few years back though so I would not be happy with just those two, but those could be the cornerstones. Martinez has a ton of talent but a lot of his value is still based upon projections as he's yet to even come close to backing that up in the minors (albeit he's consistently been young for his level and has still put up solid stats). So ultimately Martinez is still a very "risky" prospect in the sense that I'd be hard pressed to guarantee success.

It's pretty evident if Kenny is in these type of talks that he must have something up his sleeve regarding either the funds or prospects/players acquired. My guess is it is more related to the funds acquired and the reason he needs to get them done sooner rather than later is that at least one of his plans involves free agency. I highly doubt they'd go after Sabathia given how long the deal would be and Sheets doesn't make much sense given his injury history (although clearly a front line ace would be a huge help). Than there is Manny and Tex who you wouldn't think the Sox would go after. Tex still wouldn't make sense cause we've yet to hear anything about Konerko, but clearly Manny could fit into a new outfield and would help with attendance (just look at what happened in LA with him). I don't even think the money would be the problem because to an extent he would pay for himself, the bigger question is the years and if you could get him to bight on a 3yr 75-80M deal you make the move, imo. Quentin/Manny/Thome/Konerko would be a sick 3-4-5-6.

Ya, this is good cause it was being talked about in another thread. An initial rumor reported Heilman and Pelfrey being part of the deal. Did ESPN later revise this to mention Pelfrey and Martinez? I could live with a package centered around those two, but obviously the Sox have to be getting something else in return. Could Murphy be the 3rd piece? Would anyone be interested in that type of haul. The Mets would clearly be getting the best talent in the current stand-point, however, the Sox would shed payroll (hopefully for another move) as well as land 3 long-term pieces, one of which who has the chance to be a potential superstar (Martinez).

He'll end up settling for something like 4yrs 50M, imo. But I could be wrong.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 12:52 PM) What I am saying (again) is we rip players who leave via free agency, call them greedy, etc. I think they deserve the exact same understanding we give the team when they trade someone. So while no one here is mourning the loss of Dye, neither should we get pissed when a player leaves on their own. You know the same feeling both ways. Tit for Tat. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I don't know how many different ways I can say it. This shows there are no loyalties in baseball. So fans should not expect loyalty from players and not teams. It's all a business. If you get offered a fair contract and do a lot of shady stuff than I'll call you greedy. I don't believe many Sox fans called Ventura greedy or even Konerko greedy during his entire process. How we could ever call Dye greedy is beyond me. Afterall, this is a guy who turned down more money because he had already verbally agreed to a deal with the White Sox and again took less money to stay with the Sox. Magglio was the exception, not the rule, imo. I wouldn't have called Buehrle greedy had he left either and I'm certainly not calling Crede greedy for how everything went down with him and the Sox.

QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Nov 20, 2008 -> 06:01 PM) Rose has the ball at all times, Gordon not so much. The shot per touch ratio for these two would show just how much more often Gordon shoots it per touch, not to mention Rose is shooting at a higher percentage than Gordon is this year. The reason the Gordon is a ballhog issue is being brought up is HE IS a ballhog. Now, the Bulls need him to shoot and need him to score so it's not horrible that he's a ballhog, but facts are facts and people have brought this issue up since the day he put a Bulls uniform on. The reasons people don't like Ben Gordon are obvious: 1. He shoots a lot (that's not my problem with him, but whatever) 2. He's a 6'2 shooting guard (that's a problem, even if you don't agree) 3. He shoots a low percentage for a guy with a scoring reputation (43 percent in his career) 4. He doesn't play defense, care about defense, or even try on defense In his defense, he's also the only scorer on the court. Gordon would be a tremendous asset in a sixth man role. In his current role on the current team, not so much, but without him, we'd probably have the worse offense of all time.

QUOTE (DukeNukeEm @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 11:31 AM) Unless we went out and signed Mark Texiera and Rafael Furcal with the money we saved I would be pretty pissed off about trading Javier Vazquez for Aaron Hielmann. I dont like anything the Mets have, Fernando Martinez is too much projection for what we'd have to give up to get him and they'll never trade Beltran, Reyes or Wright. Kenny Williams has never made a trade for the sake of making a trade, lets not fall into that trap. I was listening to ESPN Radio yesterday and they were mentioning how people close to the Mets are hinting that David Wright is available for trade. I"d give up an arm and a leg to have him and Quentin in the same lineup for a number of years.

QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 11:23 AM) He gave up a ton of homers in the NL, pitching in a huge ballpark, in situations where he only has to throw his top 2 pitches or so. Nothing about him translates to being an effective starter in the AL at the Cell. I'm not suggesting him as a starter. THe only reason he'd start is due to injuries.

QUOTE (fathom @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 11:07 AM) Heilman absolutely, positively sucks! He would be pathetic as a starter in the American League. I agree that as a starter he'd be bad, but even last year, in a down season, his periph's are very good and he has a nice arm. I'd love to have him in our pen. But isn't he due to become a FA shortly? I could possibly by heilman for Javy because the Sox clearly are completely down on Javy and want to free his cash. However, Pelfrey for Jenks is not a fair deal at all. Pelfrey, a top prospect, and Heilman is something I could live with.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 10:42 AM) Why? It frees up a ton of cash, and Jackson wasn't bad last season, and will probably get better if 25% of his starts arent' against Boston and the Yankees. Heilman has a pretty nice arm and is a valuable rubber arm type of reliever who could spot start in a pinch.

QUOTE (That funky motion @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 10:39 AM) On the other board they are saying Pelfrey. I know not spanish! Pelfrey, Heilman and Martinez would be a very fair deal in my book. I'd say Javy > Heilman straight up...Pelfrey and Martinez is arguably greater than Jenks. You make that deal and you now have Pelfrey and potentially Edwin Jackson joining your rotation (two guys that seemed to make a lot of progress last year), Heilman strengthens the pen (with Thornton getting closer duties most likely and Poreda sliding into a lefty set-up spot) and you just got another premiere minor league prospect with super star potential in Martinez.

QUOTE (PHAT ALBERT @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 10:36 AM) Fernando Martinez? AA OF. Who is 'he?' Levineline? It had to be Fernando Martinez, Heilman, and someone else. I wouldn't be opposed assuming the other prospect is a good one and the Sox have a plan for all the financial flexibility. They definately would have gotten younger in a hurry and not just younger for the sake of getting young, but actually quality youth (ie, guys with talent and upside). Plus you still have a couple veteran bats in the middle (Konerko/Thome) as well as AJP. Rotation and Pen would be full of young arms with talent, many of whom have proven themselves at the big league level to some extent or another (Danks/Floyd/Buehrle is nice).

QUOTE (That funky motion @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 10:29 AM) I heard that on the score also about 30 min ago. The also said Javy and Jenks to the Mets for Heilman and someone else is heating up Whoah...whoah. I'd be down for trading Javy and Jenks but we better be getting two good spects in addition to Heilman in that package.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 10:26 AM) Levine saying its Dye for Jackson. Don't know if its close. If it turned into Dye for Jackson, a prospect, and Furcal I'd be pleased. But straight up I believe the Sox lose a bit (solely because Jackson isn't under our control for a ton of years). However, it gives the Sox another starter and one with upside and I like that, especially because I didn't want them to deal Javy with the only options being Poreda (and now Poreda should be able to slide into the spot he's best suited for, the pen). I could still live with the deal but value wise if its straight up the Sox would lose in terms of talent. As of now they've slashed over 20M and moving Dye would put you into the 30M range. You than could factor in all 11M of Viceido but that really wouldn't be the case since we are talking about a big league contract so its truly 2M. Put Javy into the equation and you could be talking about 40M in payroll cut and that should give the Sox financial flexibility to potentially extend Bobby (as opposed to trading him, although if you got great value I'd be okay with a trade) as well as potentially give Quentin and the young starters some deals that buy out there arbitration years (not in the off-season, but potentially at mid-season).

It looks as if Van Bosch has just never been able to fill the gap between AAA and the Majors. I don't know the reasoning but in addition to that he has had injuries cost him well over a season (over the long haul). Wouldn't be a bad guy to grab, hope you can make some minor mechanical switches to and maybe he pans out (but more importantly he's a very good AAA pickup because he would help the Knights win).

It depends on what the Sox scouts have to say. I'm glad Sox scouts seem to do a good job identifying minor league players within other systems who have potential flaws that can be fixable.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 09:49 AM) If you could get Crawford, Davis and a couple more prospects for Jenks and Dye, would you make that move? Absolutely. I'd do Crawford and Davis straight up for Jenks/Dye. Maybe find a way to get Niemann or another guy added, but I'd be perfectly content with the deal straight up.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Nov 21, 2008 -> 09:49 AM) If you could get Crawford, Davis and a couple more prospects for Jenks and Dye, would you make that move? Absolutely. I'd do Crawford and Davis straight up for Jenks/Dye.