Chisoxfn

QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 05:10 PM) Ah yes, trading Garland for a couple of prospects is such a stretch. From what I learned in this thread, we could've traded Garland for a bag of dog s*** (just speculation on my part) and it would have been worth it Gavin got his crack at the rotation Uribe (gulp) is my shortstop and I would've made a much stronger attempt to get Brian Roberts who the Sox were rumored to be after in the offseason AND at the deadline including giving up Cabrera to get him. I think that answers both of your questions. With the emergence of Ramirez it could've been possible to have Ramirez at short and Roberts at second at May. Now I'll wait for the "wellRobertswasnevertradedsothatnotanoptionforthesox,justaphantomdeal" post. We usually disagree but I will agree with you that you can't throw out the argument of who cares what we got, Floyd or Danks wouldn't have been up. I think you can say the Sox evidently traded from a position of strenght to fill a position of weakness (the Sox had 5 solid starters at the start of the season (of course as of opening day I would have never said we had 5 solid starters, but we did until Jose tanked) plus a starting SS). Now you could make the case that the Sox could have dealt Garland for prospects and found another way to get a SS who could fill the top of the order. However, I haven't seen anyone tell me what the Sox could have done better (That was available) which would have better filled the Sox needs (because with prospects and no OC, the Sox clearly aren't competing for a playoff spot). Plus couldn't you make the case that the Sox did get prospects for Garland (2 upper draft picks+Oc's services). Essentially the Sox move Garland elsewhere, they clearly have to make another move (that could have very well been Roberts). But if the Sox acquired Roberts, Juan would have started at SS and its unlikely we would have seen Alexei get his chance to develop. However, if Alexei did develop I would agree that trading Garland for prospects and finding a way to get Roberts (with Alexei playing SS) would be one possibility of making the Sox better (as opposed to acquiring OC).

So I'm listening to Pandora while I'm at work..Journey, Don't Stop Believing, started playing. How can I possibly concentrate on anything but the 05 Sox now.

evite.com

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 03:05 PM) I just dont understand if his play was so s***ty, what does that make Uribe's last season? Worse than a little leaguer.

QUOTE (CQMVP @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 01:50 PM) How many games has OC won for us with his "added offense" over Uribe? Now how many games has he cost us with his lackluster effort at SS? Having watched almost every game this year, I can tell you with almost 100% certainty, that he has cost us more games with his s***ty play on defense, than he has won for us with his bat. That is complete BS.

QUOTE (CQMVP @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 01:43 PM) The only way OC brings us two draft picks, is if the White Sox offer him 8+mil next year... if I'm not mistaken. You guys really think that's going to happen? I don't. So he's basically worthless to us. Not disappointed in him? lol You guys don't watch many games, do you? Gold glove caliber my ass. He's got a noodle arm, he doesn't get in front of the ball, he is always taking the round about way to grounders, and he has cost us a LOT of games by not making the play when he needed to. He should probably have anywhere from 5-10 more errors than he's been given credit for. I imagine that's because he's OC, and they don't want to have to deal with him calling them up after every error to argue it.(that just screams selfish) He's playing like a player that is just worried about his statistics, and not what he is contributing to this team winning. His defense has been nothing even CLOSE to what it was touted to be. Highly overrated. As I said, give me Juan Uribe at SS every day. I'd be more than happy with that. At least we knew what to expect day in and day out. A very streaky hitter, with a cannon for an arm, that makes the big plays on defense. Have you even watched the games he's played this year at 3B and SS? He's been pretty excellent. We are in MUCH better shape right now with Garland on this team, instead of OC. At least then, we have a quality pitcher to step in for the injuries. The lack of a #5 in the rotation is going to cost us a playoff spot. Mark my words. We don't NEED OC's offense. All 30 points higher average than Juan Uribe that he brings. Our pitching carried us in the beginning of the year when OC and the rest of our hitters were non-existant. That is, until we started getting hurt... Pitching wins baseball games. If our pitching hadn't went to complete crap after the first few months, we'd be safely in the playoffs right now, because our offense came around. We just started giving up 8 runs a game at the same time. Swisher, .226, and a pretty below average CF on defense. A guy that we gave up two top prospects for. One of which, is a starting pitcher, which, again, we're SORELY lacking right now. Kenny's offseason moves left us with zero options on the mound. P.S. With, or without OC, this team has no leadoff hitter... That has been our NUMBER ONE PROBLEM since we won the WS. It continues to be our #1 problem 3 years later. Completely unacceptable. We will not be competing for the world series until Kenny fixes this. The Sox will easily offer OC arbitration. OC will not accept arbitration (he will have at least a few teams offering him multi-year deals which would pay him 10+ million). The Sox will than get two draft picks as compensation. In fact, I absolutely guarantee with 99.9999% certainty that they will get draft picks. I won't even argue you when you call OC worthless defensively. Is Uribe better, sure, but Uribe is arguably the best defensive shortstop in all of baseball and OC is easily a top 7 defensive SS (I'd argue top 5).

Nice win. I was at work not paying any attention, but glad to log on to see a winner thread!!!

He's had an injured forearm. I don't think its super serious but its obviously an issue. You don't sit the MVP of the team for two consecutive games if it isn't bothering you a pretty good amount.

QUOTE (sox1844 @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 12:09 PM) I'm sorry, but to say "flop" is unbelievably stupid. Look at his career averages. What did KW expect? He's having a solid year, batting lead off on a new team. I think we got exactly what we expected. Swish on the other hand... The one mistake was that the Sox didn't find a leadoff hitter and had to put OC in a spot where he isn't best suited (no one in there right mind could possibly consider him a good leadoff hitter). However, he's doing an admirable job in a tough spot.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 10:02 AM) No way. Obama's campaign is predicated on the illusion that a McCain regime would be a third term of Bush/Cheney, and bringing in one of Bush's top people would've completely validated that criticism. McCain needed to reach as far away from Bush as he could. It's sad because, under different circumstances, I agree that Condi would've been an excellent choice. McCain also needed somebody who isn't a multi-millionaire, which is most likely why Romney didn't get the nod. As for Palin undercutting McCain's "experience" argument, I think that much of that argument died when Obama chose Biden. And it didn't work very well for Hillary, either. McCain will go after Obama on accomplishments, judgement, and his liberal voting record. At the end of the day I just hope 60 days is enough time to hammer on the fact that Obama clearly isn't fit to run this country. The problem is he's such a tremendous speaker that many Americans will ignore his record. Plus McCain isn't exactly someone that wows you so some people that are intelligent enough to recognize Obama's complete joke of accomplishments, policies, and voting record, will still vote for him because they at least like the guy (sadly that plays a huge part at the end of the day).

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 07:37 AM) Barack Obama SCHOOLED the Clinton political machine. That alone is a huge mark on how good of a manager Obama is. Couldn't you make a case that McCain was a far greater underdog than that of Obama? I wasn't giving McCain much of a chance against Romney, nor was America. Somehow McCain grinded through it and was the last man standing. I think many gave Clinton a slight edge but I don't think anyone would have been shocked if Obama became the running mate.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 07:14 AM) I thought Bush was a really good leader at first and then he completely blew it. He's been 2 different presidents since he's had to deal with a Democratic majority. I don't really see how people can't commend Bush for his leadership during September 11th. I understand people will make fun of him for the initial reaction (when he was in a Florida elementary school) but bottom line he was a big reason the US united together strongly during one of the tougher times our country has ever faced. In fact, I think long-term, Bush will go down as a president renown for doing some tremendous things, but also for doing some things that may look like epic disasters.

QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 06:59 AM) I would argue... surprise, surprise... that Obama is the better leader AND manager. I want a president who is both. The president needs to be able to see the whole picture. Top to bottom, left to right, all the way around. A person like that needs to be smart. But it's not "cool" to elect a pocket protector geek to be president. Most people say obama is a great orator but an empty suit. I argue he can see the whole picture better than most in recent history. but he doesnt give off that "pocket protector" persona because he is such a good speaker. But you also need a leader. Someone who can motivate a country. Bush had the opportunity and failed to wield it properly. I have said for a long time, Obama can motivate me to serve my country or sacrifice for the better food. John McCain couldn't motivate me to move my car because I'm blocking him in at a dinner party. I'm still waiting to see what your using to back Obama as a better manager. What sort of experience or real life examples are going to back that? I continue to see you talk about him as a motivator. Maybe we should elect Tony Robins to be president?

QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 09:08 AM) With the playoff roster deadline passing, they didnt really have a choice Crede was on the DL at the time so there wouldn't have been any issue getting him on the post-season roster. In fact, the Sox can pretty much put whomever they want to on the post-season roster because they have a couple players on the disabled list. Bottom line Crede wasn't a part of this team for the past 2 months and the Sox got along fine without him. A healthy Crede is significantly better than Uribe, but Juan did a tremendous job replacing Joe and I expect more of the same out of Juan. I wish Joe the best of luck when he leaves Chicago this off-season but right now the club is better with Juan starting (as opposed to a banged up Crede).

Happy Belated Bday Gents!!! Rock, hopefully you get a nice bday gift in 2 weeks when the Buckeyes kick the s*** out of USC (I can only hope cause I hate those f***ing trojans).

Happy Bday Everyone. Some great great, long time posters included in this list. Hope you all have an outsanding Bday!!!

So I saw Prison Break last night....f***ing awesome. I was worried where they were going to go, but they got me back on the edge of my seat.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 08:20 AM) Actually, Gavin would still have been in the rotation. Gavin didn't have any options left, and they weren't going to let him walk for nothing. The only guy in our starting rotation who had a minor league option left was John Danks. So, quite simply, if you kept Garland, until Jose got hurt, Danks was in AAA. Gavin would have been traded. Danks was not going to AAA.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 2, 2008 -> 06:23 PM) Sign me up for that trade I'd do it in a heartbeat. Beltre will be a type A free agent and fills a significant need. Plus I don't really see Swisher's value at 1B. At least not if he produces like he did this season.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 2, 2008 -> 06:06 PM) We have a few more years though to see how the Swisher trade was. It's hard to complain about an offseason that gave us a lot of pieces to compete this season. Plus it didn't hurt future off-seasons. Pretty much every piece acquired has some sort of future value to the franchise (including OC, who will net the Sox a couple picks).

QUOTE (quickman @ Sep 2, 2008 -> 05:54 PM) funny we are in first place in september in a division we thought we couldn't win, and we are complaining about the deals now. strange. I was the first to complain about the deals in the spring. I will admit I never thought we would be where we are today, but i will say we wouldn't be where we are today if we had garland, sweeney and the great GIO. So at least for this year I think they were good deals. By the way GIO SUCKS. He will never make it, and sweeney is not all that great, He is just playing on a glorified triple A team right now. Completely agree with you. The reality is somehow Kenny has turned this team into something to be excited about. You have two young starters that have been well above league average and have the ability to be bookends of this rotation for years to come (Floyd/Danks). You have a nice crop of young position players (as much as I dislike Swisher, he deserves to be considered part of this group which involves Ramirez/Quentin/Swisher) plus a solid mix of vets.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 2, 2008 -> 05:42 PM) The Cabrera deal sucked...the Swisher deal has a while to go to tell if it was good or not. However, I like the lower end deals of acquiring Quentin and signing Alexei. If that deal isn't made the Sox don't have a chance at being where they are today. I'm sorry, but Alexei wasn't ready to be a starter from opening day and I certainly didn't want to sit through another season of watching Uribe play for the Sox. Out of curiosity, what would the Sox lineup have looked like had the Sox not made that deal? Well they would have had Uribe/Ramirez in the middle infield and this would have meant that Ozzie would have to find another leadoff hitter. This means Jerry Owens would have been the starting outfielder and Quentin would have never had his chance to shine. Garland would also be on the roster which means that Floyd would have been dealt (since he was out of options). Oh and the Sox are going to get 2 draft picks for OC too. I still think the Angels probably get such out of Garland, but given the Sox needs there is absolutely no way they are competing without making that deal..NONE. You can throw out other hypothetical deals the Sox could have made involving Garland but the reality is Kenny made the deal he needed to.

QUOTE (scenario @ Sep 3, 2008 -> 08:52 AM) Regarding the Great Jon Garland... a little reality check here... Gar has a 4.54 ERA this season (31st in the AL) with a .294 BAA and a 1.45 WHIP... not exactly $10M worth of production. Meanwhile, Danks is 11th in the AL in ERA... and Gavin is 13th. Would keeping Garland have made us better? No. He's pitching half of his games in a hitters park and has had his ERA skewed by a few horrible outings. Bottom line I'd say he's pretty much pitching consistent with his salary (in terms of ERA/Wins). Basically put he's been a bit above league average and market value for that is right around 10M.

QUOTE (CQMVP @ Sep 2, 2008 -> 05:36 PM) Swisher and OC have been total disappointments this year. I can't stand either of them. I certainly hope Kenny has some better moves this upcoming offseason, or you can forget about playoffs next year. Right now, we're really lucky that Detroit and Cleveland have had terrible seasons. OC hasn't been as good as advertised, but he's still been very solid and a significant upgrade over the performance the Sox have gotten at shortstop over the prior couple seasons. Swisher has been an absolute dissapointment. I know people will point to his solid power numbers and good OBP but as a whole I have a hard time accepting anyone who hits for the average he does (and strikes out with the abundance he does) to be an effective player (at least given his hype). However, I think Swisher should be more productive in future years, although, I wouldn't be opposed to dealing him if the right offer were out there (ie, if the Sox could use him to get a legit CFer). Its also funny that you ignore acquisitions like Linebrink/Dotel/Quentin/Alexei Ramirez who all have been very key performers for a team that no one expected to contend. Plus, Jon Garland hasn't exactly been dominant. Given the performances of Danks/Floyd for about 90% of the season thus far you really can't hammer the fact that the Sox gave up Jon.

I want to point out that Rasner has an above average arm.