Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jun 14, 2011 -> 01:53 AM) Too bad hindsight is 20/20 as well. Yeah, that seems to be the standard response when anybody brings up our deplorable draft history. Jared Mitchell instead Mike Trout? Hindsight is 20/20. Lance Broadway instead of Jacoby Ellsbury, Colby Rasmus or Matt Garza? Hindsight is 20/20. Juan Pierre instead of Babe Ruth? Hindsight is 20/20. Yes, I totally used hyperbole with that last one. The point is what the hell is our scouting department getting paid to do? You could hire me and I could botch draft after draft for half the salary.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 14, 2011 -> 09:43 AM) Read yesterday where KC is expected to sign the best International player on the market. Who's that?

It is June 14th and JP has 300 PAs. That's all that needs to be said.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jun 14, 2011 -> 12:25 AM) "Talent, naturally, trumps everything. And that's why, Williams said Wednesday, the organization drafted his son, Kenny Williams Jr., in the sixth round in 2008 against the GM's wishes. The Cubs were apparently going to draft the younger Williams, so the Sox draft team scooped him up first, Williams said." Now, Mr. Williams...would you say you're completely full of s***, or totally full of s***? lol. I've been waiting all day for you to see this thread and reply.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:33 PM) What dream world are you living in? Release a guy out of "respect to a veteran player?" I know you want him gone, but that is a total reach. The guy is hitting .260 which is not worthless no matter what you Juan-haters think. You don't just release the guy. You trade him or add Dayan and platoon him with Juan. I am assuming Viciedo is playing left in the minors. If he's playing right we really have problems cause Dayan probably will be a butcher in left if he's used to right. Look, I know I'm nuts. I let my emotions (from a sporting sense) get the best of me at times. But what the hell are you talking about? Trade Pierre? For what? Raccoon s***? What the hell is the market for a near 34-year old with no discernable skill whatsoever? .260 is not worthless? It is when you can't get on base at an acceptable rate for a player that inexplicably leads the league in PAs, has about as much power potential as Justin Biebier or Lil Bow Wow, steals bases at a 50% clip and cant catch the damn baseball. Do you really believe this team would suffer without JP? He needs to go.

QUOTE (Real @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 10:05 PM) You all are saying these things about Pierre, "Not what he used to be", "Not very good at his job" What about Rios? In terms of WAR, they're both damn near identical. Is Rios washed up? Just putting it into perspective, just because a guy is having a horrible year doesn't mean he's done. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=81734 Nobody has forgotten Rios.

QUOTE (Real @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 10:06 PM) We did keep Milledge I thought? He passed through waivers and was sent down correct? Yes

QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 09:53 PM) Why not put Dayan in LF? CQ has been playing a good RF (check his UZR) and seems to have responded poorly to being moved around in the past. Dayan's growing pains may be hidden better in LF, not to mention he doesn't have years playing any particular position. They better not touch CQ. Carlos has been great in just about every facet of baseball this year. He's been better than the likes of Justin Upton and Jay Bruce. There's a bad baseball player roaming LF that needs to be banished.

This is really a no-brainer. JP is just bad. I don't know how else to say it. He offers nothing. This team is starving for some cheap, young, position player talent. All Dayan has done for the last year and a half is rake. Ozzie needs to get over his obsession for slappy, low OBP, no power whatsoever LFs and get with the program. This is the AL. Not the NL. You can get away with multiple blackholes offensively in the NL (look at the Giants).

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 09:23 PM) I see the Brewers continue to have an idiot for a manager. Playing Kotsay in CF, and then not walking Aramis with a base open? I feel sorry for Milwaukee fans. Yes, he is horrible. The Brewers are a team I like to watch when the Sox aren't on. Roenki or however you spell it is terrible.

QUOTE (kapzk @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 01:38 PM) It came down to money just like how it came down to money as well for Peavy. It came down to money they would eventually have to pay to keep him. Not for what he was currently making. Like Peavy.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 01:35 PM) Gonzalez wasn't a salary dump at all. lol. He had no salary to begin with. He was making, what, $5 million? They got legitimate pieces back for Gonzalez.

Whatever it takes. Get Howard. Aside from dealing Rose, of course. Rose/Howard=dynasty.

Other than Heads and Joecool, nobody on this site thought Humber would be worth s***. And NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY!, thought Lillibridge would morph into a 2009 Ben Zobrist clone. So the haha I told you so bit doesn't fly. That said, the White Sox are in third place. They're still below .500. And they still have a lot of question marks. Let's wait until they're in first place by a few games before all the I told you so's start rolling in.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 01:07 PM) On the boards was all I was looking at. Wallace's best year was not as good as Russells worst year. Overall Russell avg'ed more than double the boards Wallace did, and no advanced metric will be able to paint that differently. Wallace, even at his peak, is a very poor comparison to Russell. You could probably find a much better player to compare to Russell. I'm not a fan of advanced metrics in BBALL, but what would be sufficient? Win shares, defensive win shares? You can't use standard stats for players that played 40 years apart. The advanced stats aren't perfect. But there the best tool(s) we have to compare players or teams across eras. Russell was so damn long ago that BR doesn't have any of the necessary stats listed for him that would make this a legitimate debate. Rebound rate and DRtg (defensive rating: points allowed per 100 possessions) are the stats I would like to use in this case. But like I said, they're not there for Russell.

Good stuff about Reed. I'll take anything we can get.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:55 PM) Wallace at his peak was worse than Russell's worst year statistically. So thats a tough call on that one. And how do you come to this conclusion without the advanced metrics? They were/are both terrible offensively. They thrived defensively and on the boards.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:51 PM) Ben Wallace is moe Dennis Rodman than Bill Russell dude. And even thats a stretch. Ben Wallace will never enter the HOF discussion. That's because he doesn't have the longevity. 10 years of his all-star play and he's easily a HOF. Remember, I never said Wallace > Russell. I said Wallace at his peak was basically Bill Russell. Russell just did it 3-4 years longer.

Alright. This has obviously evolved into me against the entire board. I'm done quoting 3-4 posters at a time. It is MY opinion that Bill Russell was/is overrated. It is MY opinion that Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, hell, even Dwight Howard, would violate him. I will not deny Russell's impact and what he's meant to the game, especially during those times (as a darkie, I can obviously appreciate that). But strictly basketball related, he doesn't impress me in comparison to other all-time greats. Wilt? He'd be a monster in any era. Russell? Yes, Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace has been so irrelevant for so long that it's easy to forget how good he was from '02-'06. I wasn't even trying to insult him by comparing him to Wallace. I deem it fair. 11 titles is going to make anybody look good. That's what people look at. And that's why he's ultimately overrated.

QUOTE (kapzk @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:29 PM) Damn ya that was my bad i was supposed to quote the post above my bad LOL... well now about ur post, I certainly understand that but it is way too soon to label him as a bust, if the guys that we gave up were producing then you could say its a bust... but they have not, the White Sox did not lose out on any great talent. Its only been money which is I believe covered by the insurance policy that was signed with the Padres at the time of that contract extension he got. You don't seem to get it. The Padres didn't want the package we gave them. They settled for it. They wanted, and basically had to, rid themselves of his salary. They can't have one guy, especially a pitcher, taking up that much of their payroll. So by that criteria alone they win. We took on a humongous risk and Peavy to this point has been, well, s***. Now I keep hearing about this insurance policy. I have no idea what the Sox are actually saving or whatever. And I'm certain they won't divulge that info. But it certainly can't be enough to override the fact we've got expensive dead weight continually rotting on the DL.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) The Dream wasn't your typical big man. He didn't make his mark in the paint. His game was more of the outside in. Plus he wasn't nearly the defender that many other big men were, even in his own time. WHAT? Oh my goodness. Please stop. Hakeem was a two time DPOY, led the league in blocks multiple times, even averaged over 2 SPG a couple years. He was a FORCE defensively. Who was better? Ewing? Robinson? C'mon now. QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:20 PM) The only thing he did better than Russell was shoot. Shoot, score, rebound (probably similar when you adjust for pace), pass, much better FT shooter against better competition. QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:21 PM) I certainly do post in this thread. And since I do not post in it often, I am not allowed to point out the ridiculous nature of your opinion? I didn't ask if you watched Russell play "live" in the 60's. I asked if you have ever watched a game of his in its entirety? They did actually record basketball games in the 1960's. Well, I can't recall many 1965 showdowns between the Celtics and Sixers popping up on ESPN classic or NBA tv. So, no, I've never seen a full game of Bill Russell. Just highlights. What are you getting at?

QUOTE (kapzk @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:13 PM) I also gotta say its been more than an onfield thing... I don't think its a coincidence that White Sox are under .500 while Peavy is shelved while at least about ~15 games over .500 when Peavy is not on the DL. This is guy is a clubhouse leader, and it has been noted his positive characteristic has certainly rubbed off some of his teammates where they perform better as well. Bottom line the team play better when Peavy is in the house and that's not only in Peavy starts. Wait, what? First of all, why did you quote yourself? Second, a clubhouse leader and he rubs off on everybody else? Um, ok. Peavy has been a massive bust and even the most optimistic fans can't dispute that. Phil Humber has done more for us in just over two months than peavy has done for us since the summer of '09.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:09 PM) No way. Olajowon never dominated the game the way that a Russell did. The Dream was a great player, and one of the top in his era, but I put him firmly into the second tier of all time centers. I would also add Shaq to the top tier. Hakeem was better at every facet of basketball. I have no clue where you're coming from. He did it better against MUCH stiffer competition.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 12:04 PM) Not at all. You are just Mr. I KNOW IT ALL and I despise people who know it all without having ever even witnessed what they claim to be so absolutely certain about. Answer the question. Whatever. You never post in this thread and here you go trying to get smart. No. I didn't see Russell play live back in the 60's. That good enough for you? And I never claimed to know it all. It's my opinion. It's obviously not a popular opinion. And that's fine.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:56 AM) If Ben Wallace was even remotely close to Bill Russell, then why does he only have one ring? Could it be because he didn't dominate the league to nearly the degree that Russell did? And don't give me the "there were no big guys" thing, because Russell pretty much owned Wilt for 10 years. He never owned Wilt. His teams owned Wilt. When Wilt had a cast around him, he won. You look at their size, skillset (or lack thereof), they were pretty similar (I'm talking about Wallace here). Even if you put Russell in today's game and give him all the benefits of advanced training, etc, he won't be any bigger than Wallace. Wallace was a physical specimen who fell off a cliff once we signed him for whatever reason. But he had a 4-5 year run that was every bit as impressive as Russell, IMO. QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:56 AM) How many full games of Bill Russell's have you watched in their entirety? OK. Now I feel like you're stalking me or obsessed with me or something.