fathom

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2007 -> 03:59 PM) Ever? That's a stretch. They occasionally dive for bunts or pop flys, sometimes even really bad pitches. Or dive to make tags. Certainly its not often, but it happens. And there is not much question that playing catcher is far more risky for injury than 1B. Yes, but Hall has years and years of experience at the position. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hall hurt himself diving for a grounder? Catchers have to lunge after pitches all the time, but they never have to dive parallel to the ground for a ball. I know it's a matter of semantics, but it was something that many of us at the time were critical of it happening due to the fact we didn't have a single possible back-up for the back-up. Hall might be the most useless/worthless player in baseball this year.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Sep 7, 2007 -> 03:20 PM) Toby Hall isn't that good to begin with. And no, Ozzie didn't ruin him. Would everybody, say, throw Bobby Cox under the bus if Salty had been injured when they played him at first? It was a freak play and they were trying to save him some energy by not having him catch. There was nothing wrong with what Ozzie did, I don't care how bad Hall looked at first. He wasn't there trying out for the position. He was just getting at-bats. You know there's a huge difference between Hall and Salty, as the Braves actually were interested in getting him some at-bats at first base (due to their awful LaRoche trade). Also, there were so many concerns about his defensive ability behind the plate, everyone knows he'll eventually become a 1B. The Sox had no other options at back-up catcher in the spring, and should have been more careful with Hall. Diving for a ball isn't something that catchers ever have to do.

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Sep 7, 2007 -> 11:32 AM) Did Ozzie continuously run this team out of innings? Did he put his players in position to get hurt? Did he continuously mishandle the pitching staff? No - when the teams performance is hindered by strategy, and not injuries and poor execution, then I think its fair to blame Ozzie. Absolutely, he ruined our back-up catcher in the spring training (I can't wait to debate this for the 500th time this year).

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 7, 2007 -> 01:14 PM) The point that both Kalapse and 29 have been making, though from slightly different angles, is key here - evaluating a manager is not a task laden with hard facts. Its a soft study. Therefore, saying "Ozzie is an atrocious manager" is not only an OPINION, it is also probably far overstated. Saying Ozzie is a "great" manager, same thing - OPINION, and probably ignoring some of his missteps. So trying to have this discussion by saying over, and over, and over again those opinions is not going anywhere. Ozzie's not going anywhere, so it's really pointless having the back and forth debate about him anymore. I think we'll all agree we need to see better results starting in April of 2008, and if not, a lot of people should be on the hot seat. Some people love him, some hate him.....it's that way with every coach in sports.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 7, 2007 -> 01:13 PM) It is real easy to pick out situations where things didn't work out. Where were you yesterday when Wasserman was in there to face Sheffield and Ordonez. It works both ways and has for every manager in the history of the game. I was at work, not watching the game. The game against Morneau back in April or May was terrible managing, and you asked for a specific instance in which he managed poorly.

I think people will be amazed at just how many players were/are doing HGH.

There goes the feel-good story. It's weird, because I was amazed at how big his head looked when he did a curtain call today (and yes, that sounds a bit gay).

QUOTE(greg775 @ Sep 7, 2007 -> 04:43 AM) Like somebody said, Connie Mack couldn't manage this team to victories. The veterans sucked. Injuries. The bullpen would drive any manager to drink. Even today, an automatic win and poor Bobby has his first bad day in a long time. Another loss. It AINT OZ'S FAULT. How bout the veterans WHO CANT HIT (can you say Dye, AJ, Thome, Paulie, Uribe, Erstad). How about KW who put together perhaps the worst bullpen in baseball history. Fields is this season's only bright spot. As well as Bobby. Here's the question I have then....when is it the manager's fault? At what point is it the manager's fault for not getting the most out of his players? We had a year and a half of great baseball, and that's been followed by a year and a half of terrible baseball. 2008 better be a make-or-break year for KW, Ozzie, etc. (which is why I think an Ozzie extension is beyond stupid).

Pitching to Morneau with an open base and two outs with Cirillo on deck was the 2nd worst managerial move of the season. Of course, the Contreras debacle in Boston should have books written about it.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 07:24 PM) And Logan to finish it. For when the 2008 Bullpen is formed up, I think we can pencil in three names: Jenks (closer), Wassermann (ROOGY), Logan (LOOGY). Its the other three slots that concern me. I still think Thornton and MacDougal should be on the team. MacDougal tried to hard to strike out hitters this year instead of making people put the ball in play (which he was great at last year when we got him). One of the reasons that I like Wasserman so much is that he gets a lot of grounders, which is crucial out of the bullpen. Besides for MacDougal coming into this season, we had a bunch of pitchers who were fly ball pitchers.

Congrats to Konerko on the clutchest hit we've had in a long time.

QUOTE(JuiceCruz16 @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 06:48 PM) Q. Watkins did not qualify and is not directly headed to Illinois either. He will have to go to prep school or a J.C. for at least one semester now. I wonder if he won't just stay the year at pa prep school and open up his recruitment for next year again. I'll be stunned if he doesn't stay on the west coast.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) Yeah well great, call Williams foolish. Now what about the "immature" label. Sometimes you have your hate Guillen hate Williams blinders on so tight it is amazing. Do you know what plans they have for Sisco and Masset and Aardsma this offseason? No, you don't. You don't know if they're going to have them work with instructors, go to winter ball, rest up because of nagging injuries, and so on. Further, what about the flip side? What if they come up here in their new roles (starting for Sisco and Masset) and do poorly? What happens to their trade value then? Who is to say those three players don't need a physical break? You see, there are a lot of potential variables at play you're not aware of ... yet you deem a person "foolish and immature" when you don't know the whole story. That speaks volumes. Further, they are having hard enough time to find starts for Floyd apparantly. Now you want to add Sisco and Masset to the mix? The only thing we do know is all three of Masset, Sisco, and Aardsma were far from dominating in Charlotte. One could go so far as to say they were mediocre. I like it when the brass says "you don't deserve a promotion, you have been mediocre". What about Cintron, he is a major leaguer, shouldn't he get at bats to hike his trade value? Or is it you like certain players but not others and the ones you like deserve chances but not others. Or is it whatever Williams and Guillen do, you will say they should have done something else and then label Williams foolish and immature? I am also trying to figure out what other OF's should be playing. I realize there is a hate Podsednik thing going on here and believe me I want him gone too and he will not be back, that ship has sailed. Who? Anderson is hurt, Sweeney is nursing injuries, Fields has been grinding and probably needs a day off. Terrero? Who else? I was one of KW's biggest fans on this site...I gave him all the credit in the world for his roster moves prior to 2005. However, I had a huge problem with his arrogant attitude last offseason, and it's seemingly carried over into this year as well. I know I'm not the only one who's said this about KW, and it's been from some people who don't like to whine and b**** about everything. There have been various reports in the media about how the Sox are likely to trade Sisco this offseason. If that's the case, then his stock is pretty brutal right now. Why not get him up here and see if he can put together a few good weeks? I don't care about Cintron's value, as I believe he doesn't have a contract for next year. I definitely think Terrero should be getting some playing time, along with Bourgesoie (sp?) in order to see if there's any chance they can contribute for next season's roster. I've talked with people that have seen Aardsma pitch a lot more recently than anyone on this board, and they thought he looked as crisp as he did earlier in the year. Why not get him back up to the big league squad instead of punishing him? We should be looking at backing off the work load for Buehrle, Contreras, Garland, and Danks, and getting the young kids into the game more. And if KW really wanted to give guys like Masset, Sisco, and Aardsma a break, then why not say that instead of being so critical of them? And let me add that I'm pissed that KW is going to give Ozzie full authority to handle the coaching staff moves this offseason. It seems like we'll see the fantastic foursome return again for next year.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 04:50 PM) I'd take him over Erstad. There, I said it. Me too....as the biggest OMIT hater out there, his at-bats have been rather impressive. He's hit more pitches hard this week than Erstad has since he returned from injury.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 04:45 PM) Oh come on, that is ridiculous. Practically everyone in AAA was mediocre this year, up to and including the guys who were up here and got sent down, like Sisco, Masset, Aardsma. Injuries have a good chunk of the AAA team up here anyways. Those guys didn't perform, you expect them to be rewarded with a promotion? In my book you have to do good in the minors before you're promoted. They didn't do well, they weren't promoted. The only reason Phillips and Broadway are here is because Guillen has not seen them in big league games and wants to look at them. They both had mediocre years too. Please stop with the "immature and foolish" labeling. What they did regarding promotions was done for a good reason. Yes, you promote a guy and hope they do well for the last month in an effort to boost their trade value. Look at how much Aardsma's stock climbed last September by doing well for the Cubs? Same can be said for Sisco...you get him up here again, and hope he impresses enough out of the pen to boost his trade value. I will continue to call KW foolish, because I think he's become too arrogant for his own good and the good of the organization. Meanwhile, we'll continue to give at-bats to guys with no future in the organization like Cintron and Pods.

I couldn't believe KW's comments about not wanting to promote AAA players due to their poor record this year. Meanwhile, we're looking to give Ozzie an extension and giving Erstad, etc. as much playing time as possible. It's astonishing how immature and foolish KW looks right now.

Phillips with the dynamic stuff our minor leaguers are known for.

Maroth is going tomorrow for them

What a shock...Mark Mulder sucked big time tonight. I have no clue why the Cards put him in the rotation at such a key point.

Off topic....Arod with 2 homers in an inning.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 01:21 AM) Wow, Tampa really has been mashing of late. My "dream" scenerio is coming true. Floyd pitches a good game, Richar looks good in the process,(would have like to seen Josh produce a little bit more) and pen looks like they are going to give it up. Helllllo, Pedro... Fantastic point!

QUOTE(Linnwood @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 01:08 AM) Anyone care to say what AJP is doing the game, and what Hawk said re: AJP's wife? He goes "we didn't expect to see AJ until next week, as he went back for the funeral of his wife Lisa's......grandmother. There was quite a pause before who he said it was.

QUOTE(29andPoplar @ Sep 6, 2007 -> 01:04 AM) No, no way in my book. Not Jason Grilli. Grilli is a guy who had a hard biting slider and a fastball he couldn't control with bad mechanics. Floyd is a guy with a much better curveball, not as good a fastball by quite a bit, and a lack of confidence. As for Thames hitting a few to left field, in most parks they are foul and lots of times pitchers throw stuff in accordance to the park they're in. Not that Floyd has that level of experience but the key tonight is whether he battles and comes back and gets guys. I for one was impressed how he handled Hessman after he went opposite field for the HR. Bust him in and break his bat, which he did. This is not about position statements and sticking to one's guns here. This is about rooting for this guy to succeed and get over the hump, whether it's to be part of the future or to get some other team to give something up for him. In the second post of the game thread I said Floyd needed to battle for 5 innings minimum and he's done that, so it's mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned, and let's give him another test and see how he does. I wasn't saying they threw the same pitches...I was saying that both of them really struggle with their command, as it seems they have no ability to pitch to the 4 quadrants. I don't think Floyd has very good mechanics, and I think a big flaw is he shows the hitter the ball way too much.

Actually, it was a rocket. Pierre's had some great at-bats this series. I think Dodgers were just happy to win the first two games of the series, and half-assed this game.

Some nice swings by Richar tonight. He's like Pods, in which he's better when he swings harder instead of trying to drive the ball. And Hawk....thanks for making me think that AJ's wife died.