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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 06:27 AM) I think I agree with caulfield. The problem is this: posters have taken dozens of well-thought-out stabs at what going "all in" would look like this year. Some seem insane, some seem conservative, etc. And to me, ALL of them leave us with what looks like a very mediocre team. Guess I'm more optimistic than you are. Let's say Abreu, Sale Q, and Eaton perform equally well as last year. Now add VMart to the offense . Even you said his most likely best yr. if he is signed would be in the 1st yr. of the contract. Say we swap out Viciedo for Saunders or someone equal ,not trade Viciedo for that player just replace one with the other. Improve the bullpen to the point where it might be somewhat better than middle of the pack rather than at rock bottom and the Sox probably are over .500 . If a few other things go right such as Rodon and Bassitt shining a bit getting some combination of 15 W's between them, then we are in contention. Maybe Danks can even do better or Noesi . I'm not counting on it but I'd give it a 33% chance.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 05:59 AM) If the Sox are going to compete, they must have one really potent, middle of the order, left handed bat. Hitting RH pitching is always of greater value than hitting lefties, simply because there are so many more of them. In the American League, and particularly in the Central Division, the Sox will arguably have most of the best lefties in Sale, Quintana and an emerging Rodon. It makes little sense to have a lineup full of right handed hitters, with most of the good southpaws in the League, on your staff. Whether or not you agree is less important than the fact that R. Hahn has openly stated this need for a potent left handed bat. There is simply no better option available to fill that need than Victor Martinez. The arguments have already been eloquently made for signing him, including the payroll flexibility and draft protection that makes his acquisition feasible. One of the arguments against signing him has been the need to fill other holes, and the inability of the Sox to contend without first doing so. I agree in principle with the position that it only makes sense to acquire V Mart, if the Sox can contend. In fact, Martinez himself has indicated that he only wants to play for a contender. The issue for me is whether or not the front office can fill the other holes this season. Many of you have expressed concerns about needing another outfielder. Filling that hole may not be that difficult. The Sox would not need a big offensive threat at that position. With Abreu and Martinez as the 3 and 4 hitters, Eaton leading off, the on base ability of C. Gillaspie, the solid offensive contributions of A. Garcia and Alexei, they could get by with a good defensive right fielder, with a good arm and decent on base skills. That would enable them to move Garcia to LF, where his raw defensive skills would not be a liability. Remember, Avi does at least possess good speed and a strong arm. It appears that Hahn has had interest in Aoki for that role. I first thought that Shuck might be that kind of guy, but the more I read about him the less convinced I am. Aoki is intriguing because he profiles as a good 2 hole hitter as well. The problem is that he is not very good vs RH pitching. However, someone like him, with reverse splits, would be adequate, and not that expensive, or hard to find. You would think that a team like Seattle, seeking a right handed power bat, might be willing to trade a good defensive right fielder, for Viciedo. I don't think that it matters from which side of the plate that outfielder bats. With Martinez in the middle of the lineup, the need for the left handed hitter would be filled. Someone suggested Saunders, and that would be fine, if Seattle were willing to make that trade. Then there is always the international pool of talent. Again, the Sox do not need a big bat in the outfield. The bullpen is a big concern, but with the additions of Babbit, one good left hander, Montas and Cleto the pen could well become an asset, rather than the liability it was in 2014. After all, while they lost Lindstrom and Jones, the Sox did witness the emergence of Putnam and Petricka as solid set up guys. J. Guerra also looks like he's back, and can be counted upon. Of course, they will have to find a closer, but they do have candidates, including the aforementioned Montas and Cleto. That brings up another issue. The Sox record was much worse than the teams overall effort, due to all of the games which the bullpen blew. How many times did Sale and Quintana give the Sox a great chance to win, only to see the pen implode? Fix the pen, and the won/loss column would look dramatically different. So, in summary: Sign V. Martinez? Find a good defensive R.F. with the ability to get on base and provide a little speed. Sign a #3 RH Starter Sign one good LH reliever That should be within the budget of the front office, and could very well put a contender on the field this coming season. Providing management could accomplish those other goals, I'd vote to try to sign Martinez. For me the question is; Would V Mart consider signing with the Sox, not should they offer him a lucrative contract. So, what would I offer him, if it were my decision (not necessarily my money)? I'd offer him what I speculated it would take to sign him; 4 years and $70 Million. Very good summary though your solutions for the pen are a bit farfetched. No idea who Babbit is and Montas will be given every chance to stick as a starter and Cleto can't throw strikes. I was the one who suggested Saunders so if he could be traded for then there's no need to sign a FA OF and the remaining money after signing VMart could be used on the pen and/or innings eater SP . I don't like Aoki , his defense just isn't up to snuff for a slap hitter type.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:48 AM) Someone will give Rasmus $36 million for 3 years because of his youth, ability to play all three outfield spots and "potential." Romo one year at $8-9 million. (If guys like Andrew Miller are getting $20 million plus based on one season...or Gregerson, that's not hard to imagine at all). Anderson's hard to predict...he won't want to sign a long-term deal, so he's going to try to max out a one year deal or a single year with option/s attached. If Jake Peavy's going to get $10 million (plus), then I'll put Anderson at $8.5 million (roughly where Josh Johnson was). That gets you to $29 million. Then LaRoche at $8.5 million for 2 years, for a total of $17 million. (Remember, Gold Glove caliber, etc., that comes with a price even if the White Sox want Abreu to play there the majority of the time). There's $37.5 million. I think Anderson will be lucky to get $5M + incentives based on innings pitched . Rasmus way too much, Romo and LaRoche very speculative as I think both are NL players. But it is probable LaRoche gets $10M+.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:42 AM) but here is a problem with cherry picking a specific part of the advance stats. LaRoche has an for an avg of hitting, 270 hitting avg, 20 hrs a yr, 500 + at bats. remember I am not trying to compare his stats to anyone else, just responding to your answer. Since he is 35 ( only 13 months younger than VMArt) I like to look for things that might indicate his career is trending down . The last 2 years he hasn't hit lefties well which to me is more important than than his career stats. VMart crushed all pitchers but if you can "cherry pick" me a clear signal that he is trending downward, be my guest.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 09:10 PM) 27. Brett Anderson, SP: The best gamble of the 2014 offseason is Anderson, still just 26 years old, still throwing hard from the left side despite myriad injuries. Because he’s coming off back surgery, he’s a bargain worth pursuing, big markets and small, for the significant upside. One of these years, he’s going to throw a full season, and when he does, his teammates will be thrilled they’re wearing the same uniform. from yahoo.com/sports (Jeff Passan, Free Agent Tracker) Of course, that leaves the left-handedness issue again...but if they could somehow trade Danks for Ethier (just an example), that would upgrade LF (although I'm still concerned Ethier is strictly a platoon guy at this stage) and exchange Danks for Anderson, you MIGHT just have something. Sale Quintana Anderson Noesi Bassitt (loser to bullpen) “A lion does not lose sleep over the opinions of sheep.” That is what Brett Anderson said about the fans on twitter . Passan listed him as the 27th best free agent while MLBTR has him at 48. It is a very optimistic rating for someone who can't stay on the mound to save his life.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:54 AM) you are keying on 1 item. that is Dunn. I am not saying nothing of that. what I am saying is how you are replying to those who don't necessarily agree with your opinions. No you are keying on 1 item which is my Dunnitis comment . I listed other factors. . Again I have many posts in the VMart thread I started and not one person has taken offense to anything I have said while disagreeing with many of them. I could be wrong about VMart , I could be right. Time will tell. See this sentence " MOST (meaning most of the people who disagree with me ) would rather see the money spread out."

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 04:24 AM) you are way off base with this bolded statement. just b/c some doesn't agree with you, don't assume its anything more than looking for other options. I for one is looking for the best move, not the move that throws excessive money around. yeah so this is JR's money, but its a team that I like to follow. there are holes that needs to be filled. so some don't agree with you, does that mean you need to act soooo superior and demeaning b/c you are the only one who thinks he has all the answers! I've seen Dunn's name thrown in with quite a few posts when talking about VMart , not the vast majority of them of course but it is a factor just as the other things I listed are factors also. So it is not demeaning or superior when I see it with my own eyes as evidence. I think I was very fair with my OVERALL assessment.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 5, 2014 -> 01:20 AM) Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season. Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015? We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again. The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess. I'd like to see your breakdown on who you think gets what with those 4. Anderson can't stay healthy, Romo throws an 88 mph FB, LaRoche can't hit lefties and Rasmus defensive metrics are dropping, his K rate is rising and he himself has questioned his love of the game. On the plus side none of them had a career yr ( or even close to it ) so that is a sure signal to snatch them up early because of all the teams who love to sign trending downward free agents for megabucks

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 08:19 PM) Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks. If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two. IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right? I think it's very possible because chances like this do not come along very often and the goal is to win is it not ? Trying to stay below $100M payroll and expecting to compete doesn't work out very often so take full advantage of that protected pick and go for it. Also lets not forget that TV money of $25M every yr through 2021, . It all won't go for player payroll of course but there is plenty of money available.

QUOTE (gosox41 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 07:33 PM) Never trust players who have their best years when playing for a contract. I thought the Sox were going to get younger, faster with better defense/pitching. The team won 73 games last year. Getting V Mart probably means more wins but does he account for 17-20 more. Because that's how many more wins we need to win the division. I don't think so. So all getting V Mart does is hurt the Sox draft position. Or to put it another way, the Sox have too many holes to fill next year and lack the farm system and the budget to fill them. We need to keep improving the farm system and only make intelligent trades where we are not overpaying a player to win a few more games while he is in the decline of his career. If the Sox were one hitter away, that's a different story. They're not. Bob And again no one said VMart has to be the only addition. Also apparently best years are bad as are worst years and declining years so when do you exacting jump into the fray ?

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:44 PM) Two things that would make much more sense,IMO. 1- signing another FA hitter or two to go with the VMart signing. If the Sox are going to lose a pick, may as well use this year to sign FA's since the number one is protected regardless so at least the Sox keep that no matter what. Sign one or two other guys first and show VMart the Sox are committed to winning in 2015. Another advantage to this would be if the Sox sign a another player or two that cost picks, the Tigers end up with the Sox 3rd or 4th round pick as compensation instead of the 2 . I don't think anyone responded to this and if makes a whole lot of sense. Only sign as many free agents as you can afford that fit your team not just hitters. Let's say the Sox sign VMart and 2 other guys who were given a qualifying offer . Then we give up what ,a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd pick in one draft class. Beats the hell out of losing #1 's in separate years. You could sign VMart , Melky or Headley and a few 2nd tier relievers (those who don't cost $9M+) or a SP . Is this possible ? Are there rules against beating the system in this way ?

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 03:47 PM) Non tendering Viciedo is crazy talk, not going to happen. Why? He's 25 years old right now and has hit 20+ HR's in 3 straight seasons. Now I'm not saying he should be given another year for us, but I refuse to believe that there isn't a team that would be willing to trade for him. I'm not even saying for a lot, but a young arm for the bullpen shouldn't be that hard to obtain in my opinion. I agree that Viciedo's got enough value to be tendered a contract but he has not hit 20+ HR 3 straight seasons since it was 25, 14 and 21 which averages out to 20/season exactly ,not 20+, nor 3 seasons in a row for the sake of accuracy when supporting your opinion.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 02:44 PM) I just think we can stomach it for this year while the payroll is really low. In years where we're maxing it out, I don't think you'd even consider it. That might actually be the plan this year. Go after free agents as many as you can afford . Any draft picks you lose will be 2nd round or later all in 1 draft class instead of say losing a 1st rounder next year if you sign a free agent. Take advantage of that protected pick this year unless there are rules to prevent this I don't know about. In that scenario you don't tender Tank a contract.

Bleacher Reports thinks Ervin Santana would be a good fit for the Sox .http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2253830-projecting-1-impact-signing-every-mlb-team-will-make-this-winter/page/7 But remember that article just says if every team signed 1 free agent who seems the most likely candidate.

From CSn in the foot injury article; The White Sox were impressed with the way Bassitt took the lessons he learned in his one month in the majors and applied them to the AFL. (Farm director Nick)Capra said Bassitt used all four of his pitches, including a changeup he learned to develop while with the White Sox. He also pitched inside more often and was more willing to pitch to both sides of the plate. “The experience he had in the big leagues taught this kid a lot,” Capra said. “It looks like he’s taking off with it.” 0.69 ERA and 22 K's , 3 walks in 13 innings in the AFL which we know can never be called a pitchers league.

I'd also like to point out that since I heavily rejoined the discussion the votes went from 23 for and 25 against to 25/25 . Seriously though I think that most people's minds were made up on this subject long before this thread. Any of you voters out there who were on the fence but reading the thread swayed you one way or another ?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) I think Abreu will be a fine mentor. Maybe LaRoche will be, too. And we know the fanbase will get excited when we win, not before (at least in any measurable sense), so I think think we should be focused on that overall. Also, wasn't Victor caught up in the middle of the Avi vs. Prince Fielder debacle? Maybe he was a mediator, but it's a definite possibility that Victor does NOT like Avi, especially considering it seems like Avi was pretty clearly in the wrong. Or at least, either no one was in the wrong or Avi was in the wrong. Remember the Sale/Martinez incident ? It was Avi who told Martinez that Sale thought he was getting signs from CF which is a more recent thing than the Fielder incident so I'm pretty sure Avi and Victor are friends. I think when talking mentors a fellow countryman will always be a better choice for influence. My many many yrs. of being a Sox and baseball fan tell me its the intangibles that often make a difference . So while I will always applaud your logical way of looking at things taking VMart from the Tigers and a possible adjustment yr. needed from LaRoche to facing AL pitchers at his age and the publicity surrounding a VMArt signing are things that can't be ignored or pushed aside as negligible.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 01:50 PM) But more pinch runners HA You know I knew you'd say that and I was going to put it in my posts and say don't you dare say more pinchrunners but if we're talking DH's they pretty much all need PR's. At least the one's you mentioned do.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 01:42 PM) I don't think anyone's disputing that Victor is the best hitter available this year, but they are all either substantially younger, substantially cheaper, or don't come with draft pick compensation. Balta's point, I think, is that there are other options and that there are always other options. I really think LaRoche is the best option. If we all agree that healthy expectations for Martinez and LaRoche are ~125 and 115 wRC+, respectively, then we're talking the difference in going with LaRoche equalling about getting 10% less offense for 50% fewer total dollars, 50% fewer years, and no draft pick compensation. You get most of the production and a bunch of money to spend on something else too. Also get no mentor for Avi and less excitement in the general fanbase for signing a superstar and we don't hurt the Tigers. Also I really hate National League hitters coming to the AL.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 01:43 PM) There's a decent chance Butler is even cheaper and his career numbers are just about as good as the other guys, the only Q I'm left with is what we do with the other lineup slots we have available. This wouldn't bother me that much if our manager was willing to put a series of righties together in the lineup but he's not, so we do need a LH bat there. Having Martinez would also mean less PH in the late innings Robin would have to think about.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:42 PM) my problem stems from the number of yrs on the contract and salary demand per yr. I don't like adding a 4th yr either but maybe he gets 4 yrs, maybe he doesn't and right now he isn't making any "demands". If I had to guess what he'll "ask" for probably $18M+.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:55 PM) Just to point out how solvable this position is every year, in addition to Laroche, here's the WRC+ career for various guys who are also available: Michael Morse's: 122 Kendrys Morales: 111 Billy Butler: 117 Michael Cuddyer 117 Pablo Sandoval: 122 Dick was saying either a switch hitter or a LH because we need a LH badly . Morse ,Butler and Cuddyer are RH . Sandoval was pitiful against LH's this year and isn't a DH and Morales was just plain pitiful all around . Not solved at all.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 12:36 PM) I don't think his performance is any riskier than LaRoche's, but when you factor cost, Victor is a riskier proposition. Cost factors are just that VMart is better than LaRoche . The added benefit to having a VMart over LaRoche is his switch hitting greatness means you aren't hurt when those specialists are brought in and we all know the games can be won or lost when a team brings in a LH to face a guy like LaRoche. The more guys that don't have to be platooned that you have the better your chance of winning those tight late innings or extra innings games become. Also as a fellow Venezuelan I think his influence on Avi might pay great benefits to his development.

Guess the difference between our arguments is that I don't see VMart as the most risky by far. You mentioned Adam LaRoche as a possibility. He's 13 months younger than VMart but he's not very good against LH's. Of course he'd be cheaper and be able to play a better 1st base than Martinez in late innings and occasional starts. So he's essentially useless against LH's and his K's hurt you in those runner on 3rd and less than 2 out situations. Martinez has shown throughout his career that he is equally good against LH's and RH's . You also have the same arguments for rapid decline because of the similarities in age. Sure you can sign him for 1 or 2 less years probably but I'd rather have the guy who can be a bigger threat against all pitchers and in late innings when teams bring in a specialist.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 4, 2014 -> 10:46 AM) That is what I believe too. It would be nice to think you know 6 or 7 guys in the White Sox regular line up 3 or 4 years from now and/or their rotation and bullpen, but I am not sure if it is BA or BP that projects the line ups 3 or 4 years down the road. They usually wind up with only a couple of guys correct. To say before the Sox fill this huge hole, they need to fill this hole and that hole, is IMO being timid. You need to fill the holes when you can. And if those holes cannot be filled now, at least the one you did fill should be filled for a couple of years at the very least until someone develops or another opportunity arises. Or you still are going to be in the same spot year after year. The Sox cannot continue to waste Sale and Q and to some extent, Abreu. If you are waiting for this system to develop all these players before you take any decent sized risks, history has shown, we will all be waiting a long time. What I get from this thread is that everyone voting no is looking for the " perfect fit" to spend the big money on like Abreu was. That and the possibility of money tied up on an injured or rapidly declining player. We got lucky with Abreu and unlucky with Dunn and Danks. These 3 things combined have Sox fans very wary of long term committments. I think established/veteran talent has to be added always because other players careers also go into that negative trajectory mode. What if Abreu becomes the player he was in the 2nd half ? What if Avi becomes what Eminor always thought he was ? What if Sale blows out his arm ? For planned steps forward there always seems to be unplanned steps backward. There are always going to be contracts we aren't happy about. There's just no getting around that in todays game. At least when you add talent and things go awry in other areas to screw up your season that talent is tradeable. If you keep dumpster diving a guy like Noesi , for instance, isn't worth as much in trade as that established vet because of the fear he will go back to being trash.